Ripheus23 Posted March 21, 2025 Posted March 21, 2025 (edited) Between the fusions of Ruin+Preservation and Honor+Odium, the serious Splintering of others and whatever the Dor really counts as, there are no longer 16 Shards in the cosmere. Let's count the fusions as the definite numerical decrease,* so that we would say, "There are still 14 Shards according to the criterion of separate Intent." IIRC, 14 was an important number in the political history of Scadrial. Were the 14 [???]s of Scadrial a sort of meta-/hyper-prophecy of the day when there would be 14 Shards-by-Intent? Bonus obscurity: what exactly is a "toparchy"? Like the Revv toparchy on Roshar, mentioned in connection (Connection?!) with Nale? I would assume it's a combo for "topos+archy," so government according to (cymatic???) topology? _____________________ *Or if the Dor counts as a fusion-against-Intent, there are 13 Shards now, and 13 is probably Virtuosity's number. Alternatively, with Ambition and Virtuosity majorly Splintered, maybe there are only 11 Shards around? So 11 or 13 or 14 current Shards? Actually, if Devotion and Dominion count as excessively Splintered, are there only 10 sufficiently intact Shards as such? Because 4 are Splintered unto exemption from the list, 2 are eliminated by recount-after-fusions. _____________________ EDIT: and how many people have been Vessels, by now? More than 16, firstly; I mean: Preservation was held by Leras first, but also fully by Vin and then Sazed. So as of then, the number of people-who-were-or-are-Vessels increasing by 2 as such. (I don't remember how fully Kelsier is counted as a holder of Preservation or how Rashek figures in this scheme/what Slivers count as, as such.) Odium has been held by 2 people. Honor has been held by 3 people, even if the second (Dalinar) had it for a very brief amount of time. There's some (quasi-)evidence that Reason might or might not have the same Vessel "right now" (when???) as originally. (I think the evidence is some who's-a-good-little-dragon shenanigans or something.) And how do we count fusion-holders? Sazed immediately became a di-Shard, so an increase in the Vessel-list of just 1, let's suppose. Does Taravangian count sort of twice, for holding Odium for a while before making Retribution and taking that up? I mean, how do we differentiate between lists of "Vessels, generally" and "Vessels of this or that Shard in particular"? So, whatever the number/s of this list/these lists is, we're talking something above 16. Should we expect historical/Spiritual symmetry, then, such that maybe the number of sufficiently intact Shards(-by-Intent/not-too-Splintered) is half the number of eventual-Vessels, or something along those lines anyway? I know free will is strongly involved in all this, but so is divine providence of various sorts (incl. Adonalsium's), so who knows... Edited March 21, 2025 by Ripheus23
LeondeBowa Posted March 21, 2025 Posted March 21, 2025 A theory of energy is that it cannot be created or destroyed, only changed. There are still 16 shards as there were 16 shards before the shattering, the only difference is their form
Ripheus23 Posted March 21, 2025 Author Posted March 21, 2025 29 minutes ago, LeondeBowa said: A theory of energy is that it cannot be created or destroyed, only changed. There are still 16 shards as there were 16 shards before the shattering, the only difference is their form Don't the Shards count as forms of Investiture as such, though? Because here, Investiture "obeys" the conservation principle alongside matter and energy, and according to an extra thermodynamic law. Only the Investiture went from being uniformly keyed to Adonalsium, to being keyed to the separate Vessels, etc., so more like a difference of form?
LeondeBowa Posted March 21, 2025 Posted March 21, 2025 Yes, that is what I said My point was it doesn't matter how many vessels there are, they are still distinct as the 16 shards even when they are melded together Honour and odium exist inside retribution as preservation and ruin exist inside harmony 1
Ripheus23 Posted March 21, 2025 Author Posted March 21, 2025 24 minutes ago, LeondeBowa said: Yes, that is what I said My point was it doesn't matter how many vessels there are, they are still distinct as the 16 shards even when they are melded together Honour and odium exist inside retribution as preservation and ruin exist inside harmony I'm differentiating strongly between the Vessels and the Shards for the purposes of this analysis, then. So the Intents of Ruin and Preservation, for example, still exist, and we might say that there were more than 16 Shardic Intents now/on a certain level, while less than 16 on another level, etc.
LeondeBowa Posted March 21, 2025 Posted March 21, 2025 No? Retributions viewpoint mentions he feels both odiums drive to satisfy it's emotions and honours drive to fulfil obligations, they are still separate on some level. The "new intent" is completely Taraviangian The same way that the intent from harmony is completely Sazed Tbh I'm not sure the point you're trying to make, mate?
Ripheus23 Posted March 22, 2025 Author Posted March 22, 2025 (edited) 3 hours ago, LeondeBowa said: No? Retributions viewpoint mentions he feels both odiums drive to satisfy it's emotions and honours drive to fulfil obligations, they are still separate on some level. The "new intent" is completely Taraviangian The same way that the intent from harmony is completely Sazed Tbh I'm not sure the point you're trying to make, mate? Retribution is a newly manifested Intent. So is Harmony. The elemental/godmetal manifestation of the new Shards would not be a mere alloy of the given pairs (this we've been told in WoBs and, I think, the ettmetal/related problematique in MBE2) but more fundamentally distinctive. So we have to differentially categorize: Intents in the Spiritual and Cognitive Realms, which include Intents for Shards that perhaps never would arise (e.g. if Whimsy never merges with Valor and Endowment, or if Adonalsium had been Shattered according to different parameters (which might've not resulted in 16 privileged Intents at all as such (see below))). Intents manifested through actual Shardic metals. Intents no longer manifesting primarily in such a metallic form. &c. See e.g.: Quote Questioner If I were to alloy atium and lerasium, would I get harmonium? Or is harmonium different after the Shards combined? Brandon Sanderson It's different after the Shards combined. Questioner If I was to take harmonium and separate it out through distillation, would I get lerasium and atium or something that functions similarly? Brandon Sanderson No, you would-- It actually has become a different-- Questioner Can't be split? Brandon Sanderson Yeah. I mean, you could find a way, but you're not going to get it through normal, mechanical means. Skyward Houston signing (Nov. 19, 2018) Also: Quote askthepaperclip (paraphrased) If Adonalsium were to shatter in a parallel universe, would it divide into the same 16 intents? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Um...it...Adonalsium could have been shattered in other ways. askthepaperclip (paraphrased) Was there a force determining which way it shattered? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Yes! New York Signing (Nov. 16, 2013) Edited March 22, 2025 by Ripheus23
LeondeBowa Posted March 22, 2025 Posted March 22, 2025 You've completely lost me at this point, Good luck with this mate
alder24 Posted March 23, 2025 Posted March 23, 2025 On 3/21/2025 at 1:56 PM, Ripheus23 said: Between the fusions of Ruin+Preservation and Honor+Odium, the serious Splintering of others and whatever the Dor really counts as, there are no longer 16 Shards in the cosmere. Let's count the fusions as the definite numerical decrease,* so that we would say, "There are still 14 Shards according to the criterion of separate Intent." IIRC, 14 was an important number in the political history of Scadrial. Were the 14 [???]s of Scadrial a sort of meta-/hyper-prophecy of the day when there would be 14 Shards-by-Intent? There are still 16 Shards, they are just intermingled with each other or Splintered into pieces. But they still count as 16 Shards. Investiture, like energy, can't be destroyed, so even those Splintered Shards don't stop counting as Shards. They are just in pieces and without any Vessel, but if you take two pieces of Splintered Ambition, you will know this is Ambition's investiture. Even Harmonium on the fundamental level is still made out of distinguishsble investitures of Ruin and Preservation. Harmony itself is made out of two powers, which Sazed constantly remaind us throughout Era 2. Those Shards still exists within him separately. Spoiler Questioner If Sazed got bored one day, could he split the two Shards he has? Brandon Sanderson Read And Find Out. Questioner So for right now, there are fifteen Shards? Brandon Sanderson Right now, there are sixteen Shards, but fifteen Vessels. Well, not even that, 'cause, you know. Skyward San Diego signing (Nov. 7, 2018) Spoiler Ironeyes So harmonium, we have a working theory that the reason it's so volatile is because some of the subatomic particles are associated with Ruin and some of them are [of?] Preservation. Is that true? Brandon Sanderson Yeah, that's basically what's going on is that it's creating a very unstable metal. Now, it is in the nature of the Cosmere not a compound but an element. But, you could call it a subatomic particle sure. It's very volatile because it is in nature spiritually in contrast with itself. And so though it is a single element rather than a compound, the spiritual nature is not happy as it is, and you can set up in the physical realm, through reactivity things that would just rip it apart and really your energy is not, your energy in that is actually pulling from the Spiritual realm, and so that's why it can be so much more explosive than even the chemistry would account for. Ironeyes So it's not that the subatomic particles are invested, it's that they have a spiritual identity which causes them to... Brandon Sanderson Yes. Ironeyes So then it's not creating an oxide because after the spiritual energy goes away from the explosion then it's a different metal, right? Brandon Sanderson Right, and... Ironeyes So you can't find harmonium oxide in the water afterwards. Brandon Sanderson Right right right right. Because it's not, it's, yeah. But you might be able to find something else, which is really relevant to the Cosmere. And to Scadrial. Ironeyes So the core elements, the core particles, having extra repulsion causes them to have a nuclear potential. Brandon Sanderson I would not call it nuclear because it's not the same exact thing. But there is a Cosmere equivalent. To - I mean, you could do nuclear power just the same in the Cosmere, but since we have a third kind of state of matter, right? Matter, energy, Investiture. You have a third axis that, you know, you can release energy from matter, you can release investiture from matter, and things like that. So it's similar, but following its own rules that I have a little more - that are controlled by me, right, that are built on this idea. So once you add *inaudible*, matter now can exist in this third state, you get all sorts of weird things, which one of the things that happens is, you can get an energy release in sort of the same way. A reaction, I'm not going to call it a nuclear reaction, but of the same vein. Boskone 54 (Feb. 19, 2017) As for the number of Vessels, there is a Shard that is not held by its original Vessel (not counting Harmony and Retribution). Because the question is about holding a Shard, it should exclude Splintered Sharda like Ambition, Virtuosity, Devotion and Dominion. However, I think Brandon was thinking about Honor, who isn't Splintered and started to develop its own sapience, but the possibility that there is another Shard which switched hands is still opened. Kelsier counts as a Vessel, he held Preservation, even if it opposed him strongly and he couldn't utilize its full strength due to his CS status. I don't really see any evidence suggesting that Valor is held by a new Vessel. Spoiler Questioner Are there currently any Shards, besides Harmony, that are not held by their original Vessel? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018) 2
Nitpicking Posted March 23, 2025 Posted March 23, 2025 Spoiler Questioner Are there currently any Shards, besides Harmony, that are not held by their original Vessel? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Brandon loves technicalities. The above would be true just because of the Dor, or Ambition--Splintered Shards are not held by any Vessel.
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