Ruin's and Cultivation's Compatibility

[Trusk'our he/him]

Ruin and Cultivation are both Shards of change. In fact, they would apparently be quite in line with one another's Intents, more so than Ruin and Odium. 

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/186-general-reddit-2013/#e4130

Autarchk

If I can ask a question, I just read the Mistborn trilogy and, were Preservation and Ruin two different shards or a single one with their power split somehow? If they were two shards, does that mean a single person can hold more than one, since Harmony apparently holds both now?

Brandon Sanderson

They were two shards.

Yes, one entity can hold more than one. Remember that holding a shard changes you, over time. Rayse knows this, and prefers to leave behind destroyed rivals as opposed to taking their power and potentially being overwhelmed by it.

Nepene

I have a question, if you are willing. Would Ruin be more compatible with Rayse, would he pick up that shard had he visited Scadrial and shattered him? All the shards we have seen that he has shattered seem rather different in intent than him- Honor, Cultivation, Love, Dominion. But Ruin seems more in line with Odium. Rayse has ruined the days of quite a few people.

Brandon Sanderson

Technically, Ruin would be most compatible with Cultivation. Ruin's 'theme' so to speak is that all things must age and pass. An embodiment of entropy. That power, separated from the whole and being held by a person who did not have the willpower to resist its transformation of him, led to something very dangerous. But it was not evil. None of the sixteen technically are, though you may have read that Hoid has specific beef with Rayse. Whether you think of Odium as evil depends upon how much you agree with Hoid's particular view.

That said, Ruin would have been one of the 'safer' of the sixteen for Rayse to take, if he'd been about that. Odium is by its nature selfish, however, and the combination of it and Rayse makes for an entity that fears an additional power would destroy it and make it into something else.

But what I find most interesting is that, aside from this harmonious end goal, both Shards differ almost diametrically. 

Cultivation's presence on Roshar has boosted the evolution of many creatures, encouraging higher forms of intelligence. 

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/70-shadows-of-self-denver-signing/#e2792

Kogiopsis (paraphrased)

Anything you can tell us about santhids?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They're one of a few Rosharan animals with a degree of sentience. It's easier on Roshar for this to happen.

Kayla (paraphrased)

Because of Cultivation?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Also, santhids aren't based on anything in particular on Earth.

Conversly, Koloss (especially in Era 1) had a severe mental impediment from their transformations. What's more, MoI that seem to be changed in a Ruinous fashion around the Cosmere show signs of cognitive blockage, preventing it from developing full sapience. 

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/535-c2e2-2024/#e16587

Strifelover

My question is around connections between corrupted Investiture on different planets. We have the shroud; we have Midnight Essence; we have the nightmares; and we have Nightblood. All of them have, like, oozy black smoke. Are they all connected somehow with the corrupted Investiture of Odium, Ambition...?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes and no. The question is: all of these different manifestations (we've got the Midnight Essence, we've got the shroud, we've got Nightblood), are they connected? Are they all related in some way to Odium or Ambition? The answer is no to the second.

When I was building the Cosmere, one of the things that I knew is that I wanted to explore magic systems really in depth. And in order to do that, I built fundamental principles by how magic, Investiture, would manifest. And I wanted it to be consistent. For instance, I wanted the rules... if you're making illusions in one world, I wanted those illusions to behave a lot the same way that they would on other worlds. So I built these fundamental principles that I build up from. And one of those fundamental principles is about Investiture that is trying to become alive and is being held back by something. And that is where you get Midnight Essence sort of things. It's, like, one step from being able to become self-aware, but it's being held back. And there's even, kind of, some frustration in there, as much as something not truly self-aware can have. So if you watch for that theme, you'll see it more and more.

Radiants also have very noticeable Resonances, at least compared to Twinborn. This could just be due to higher levels of Investiture, but Cultivation is present in the magic system, and it wouldn't surprise me to find that constructive interference is boosted by her Intent.

Again, on the opposite side of the spectrum, powers granted by Hemalurgic spikes do not form Resonances under most circumstances. Probably because Ruin is deconstructive in nature. 

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/373-skyward-chicago-signing/#e12024

Questioner

As far as Hemalurgy, when you give that-- when it's done to somebody, would that create a new resonance?

Brandon Sanderson

It's possible that it could. Though I'm gonna say, most of the time, no... Lots of things are possible, but I'll give you a "mostly no" on that one.

Questioner

What about savantism? Is that possible with Hemalurgy?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, it is.

When looking at the "vibe" of each Shard, Cultivation is very organically based, focusing on all forms of life and natural growth.

Ruin, at least in respect to Hemalurgy, is anything but natural. Using forged metals to pick apart and splice together Spiritwebs and bodies in unnatural ways.

While it might just be the Kor directing the Shard to act in this way, Cultivation is very indirect, often preferring to manage things from the shadows.

Ruin is described as being a forceful Shard, more of a shouter than a listener. This makes me think Ruin would be sort of a forceful type of change compared to a more organic, slow growth associated with Cultivation, relying on subtlety only when necessary. 

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/193-general-reddit-2012/#e4156

kilomtrs

So in the trilogy, we see that when someone has a Hemalurgic spike implanted in them, they can hear Ruin talking to them, both as a vision and in their head. However, we learn in the Hero of Ages that Ruin cannot hear a person's thoughts no matter how much under Ruin's influence they are.

In Alloy of Law, we see that Wax (and other Pathians) uses an earring to "pray" to Harmony, and we see that Harmony can hear his thoughts and respond.

So I guess this leads to three questions: How does Harmony hear the thoughts of Wax, when it's explicitly pointed put that Ruin cannot?

Are the earrings that the Pathians use Hemalurgically charged, as otherwise they would be of no use to Ruin, and therefore Harmony?

Or did Harmony completely change how that aspect of Hemalugy works?

Brandon Sanderson

How this all works dates back to the original design of the magic system.

I wanted Ruin and Preservation to be complementary opposites, like many things in the Mistborn world. Allomancy, for example, has Pushes and Pulls were are less "negate one another" opposites, but instead two sides to the same proverbial coin.

Ruin is invasive. The power is more "Yell" than "Listen." The philosopher would probably have some interesting things to say about the masculine symbolism of Hemalurgy and its spikes.

Ruin can insert thoughts. That power, however, can't HEAR the reactions. It's about invasion.

Preservation, however, is the opposite. Preservation listens, Preservation protects. (Perhaps to a fault--if there were no Ruin, there would be no change to the world, and life could not exist.) Because of this, Preservation can hear what is inside people's minds. It cannot, however, INSERT thoughts. (This is important to the plot of Hero of Ages.)

Harmony is both, the two complementary opposites combined. And so, he inserts thoughts with Ruin and still uses Hemalurgy. He can also listen.

(Snipped for relevance)

This almost makes me wonder, would Ruin and Cultivation actually work well together for very long?

True, it depends largely upon the Vessel(s) perception, and I doubt it would be as difficult as Ruin and Preservation working together. 

But given how Honor's and Cultivation's Intents grew more distant with time, it makes me think the two would almost inevitably clash. Cultivation wanting things to change, yes, but needing them to change for the better. Ruin wanting change, but in the opposite direction- for civilization to end instead of just evolving. 

Perhaps they'd be fine and I'm overreaching on their opposite components, but I feel any two Shards trying to work together may become incompatible with time unless there is a fundamental change in one or both's Intent. 

Edited March 18, 2025 by Trusk'our

[Treamayne]

49 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Ruin and Cultivation are both Shards of change.

<snip>

This almost makes me wonder, would Ruin and Cultivation actually work well together for very long?

I think most of this is treating Shard, Vessel and Manifestation of Investiture as if all three were synonyms. I do not think that is the case. 

Hemalurgy has specific effects becuase of the way it rips of a splices chunks of spiritwebs. That happens to involve Ruin's investiture on Scadrial - but it's a feature (bug) of Hemalurgy - not an Effect of Ruin's Investiture itself. Kor encourages increased speed of evolution (using the high-investiture environment provided by Highstorms), but that is not necessarily indicative of Cultivation - which was described as "all things that change." Ati was able to leverage Ruin's investiture to to speak into people's heads (as long as they were spiked or otherwise had enough Connection), but that was the vessel desperately trying to find a way to same himself from Preservation's prison. 

I think, stripped of Vessels, the core of Cultivation and Ruin can be complementary (or at least more complimentary that Ruin/Odium which is still more complimentary than Ruin/Preservation) but that does not mean in any given vessel they would be complimentary.

Basically, a greater potential for synergy exists in this pairing - but that does not mean that potential would be realized. 

[Ashbringer he/him]

Neither Preservation nor Ruin could make something become new or grow - at least, not for very long. Preservation wants to keep things the way they are, Ruin wants to break things, neither Intent particularly wants to make something new. Sure, Preservation and Ruin made a planet together, but I think that was more in line with the Shards both wanting something to influence and Invest + the Vessels wanting to more than the Shards. 

I think that's partially the mistake Harmony made - Preservation plus Ruin don't necessarily make Creation, they simply can create when the Intents rarely align with that.

Cultivation can make things grow and re-learn, while still being accepting of things dying in the process.

 

I think to some degree it depends on the Vessel's interpretations of the two Shards (whether together or separate). Ati took Ruin as a slow but inevitable process, where everything would one day end in Ruin. Kor, on the other hand, does not like violence or the negative aspects of growth that Cultivation perhaps would enjoy. Someone who sees life more as a cycle, old things leaving to make room for the new, would probably combine the Intents well, but Ati/Kor taking up Cultivation/Ruin would not end well.