By Adonalsium’s strength

[Nitpicking]

In chapter 145 we see this:

Quote

Nothing happened. As he tried to draw the spren toward him, the power refused to absorb them.

They are protected, his powers said.

“By what?” Retribution demanded.

By an oath and a circle, the powers said. By Adonalsium’s strength. Ten stand against you, using the piece of us within them. Honor demands their oaths be followed.

 

By Adonalsium's strength? What? Who? Adonalsium is dead. How could he be protecting the spren?

 

Well, we know of one bit of Adonalsium's power that was involved in the creation of the new Heralds.

 

So, Retribution (as Honor and Odium) is referring to the Wind. She is a Splinter of Adonalsium. It's her power (the "bit of a god" that Ishar said was required to make Kaladin immortal) that's protecting the spren, along with the power of the oath.

[Onironte he/him]

Good point, I initially thought it was the power of Honour ("part of us" that used to be part of Ado), but that makes sense, although it does sound odd that Wind's power was so weak that he couldn't speak World Spread, yet he was able to protect the Heralds. Perhaps Stone or Night were involved? Or it was a mixture of Honor and Wind?

[Ripheus23]

10 minutes ago, Onironte said:

Or it was a mixture of Honor and Wind?

Crackpot twist: Kaladin doesn't extract Honor from Retribution, but Wind, i.e. the Shard thereof, and becomes the Vessel of the Wings of Adonalsium 

AKA: he creates a new Shard but not by fusion.

Edited March 16, 2025 by Ripheus23

[Onironte he/him]

Crackpot twist indeed... That would have been crazy, a deus-ex-machina. But even thought, that would have been... interesting. As it would been Kaladin being spren-turned into some sort of Knight of Wind spren.

[AlmightyGir]

1 minute ago, Onironte said:

Crackpot twist indeed... That would have been crazy, a deus-ex-machina. But even thought, that would have been... interesting. As it would been Kaladin being spren-turned into some sort of Knight of Wind spren.

The Heralds are already Spren, so Kaladin is already that.

[Onironte he/him]

Good point.

What's technically a spren? If we follow the definition on the Coopermind, neither the Heralds nor the 3 Bondsmiths' spren are actually sprens. Nor Seons... it's a weird barrier.

[RedBlue]

I took the ‘strength of Adonalsium’ line to mean that it’s a law of nature. The Shards are obligated to follow certain rules because that’s the way things are, and the way they have been since Adonalsium’s time.

I never got the sense that the Wind was fuelling the Oathpact (either the original or 2.0). The Oathpact uses Honor’s power, and the Wind predates Honor.

[Nitpicking]

11 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

I never got the sense that the Wind was fuelling the Oathpact (either the original or 2.0). The Oathpact uses Honor’s power, and the Wind predates Honor.

We don't know any of that. It's certainly one plausible way to read it, but ... Remember the original Oathpact? It bound Odium using the power of another shard (and the Heralds' Connection to Odium).

I contend that Oathpact 2 binds Honor-as-part-of-Retribution using the Wind's power (and the Heralds' Connection to Honor). Note that the new Herald, Kaladin, has a very strong Connection to Honor as a Fifth Ideal Windrunner (the Windrunners being very close to Honor in the Eye of the Almighty diagram). For that matter, thanks to Moash Kaladin has a Connection to Odium. His eyes actually turned red at one point.

I'm saying that the Connected Shard is not the one powering the Oathpact. Can't prove that, it's just my interpretation.

[Nitpicking]

Hey! In the Postlude, in the Spiritual Realm, Kalak notices something:

Quote

That figure he couldn’t quite make out? That was Nale’s spren, he supposed.

No, it isn't. Highspren don't look like that.

It has to be the Wind.

[Ashbringer he/him]

9 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

Hey! In the Postlude, in the Spiritual Realm, Kalak notices something:

No, it isn't. Highspren don't look like that.

It has to be the Wind.

I’d thought it just was Nale’s spren… but that’s a good point. And also 1) Kalak would probably have met Nale’s spren before and 2) didn’t Nale’s spren leave him?

[Onironte he/him]

Wind getting a pseudo-physical form... That sound relevant to the 2nd Era, maybe now that the storm is gone, Wind will take her former place on the pantheon.

Edited March 17, 2025 by Onironte

[Ripheus23]

45 minutes ago, Onironte said:

Wind getting a pseudo-physical form... That sound relevant to the 2nd Era, maybe now that the storm is gone, Wind will take her former place on the pantheon.

Maybe part of the endgame will be that Kaladin and Co. pull multiple semi-Shards from Honor, establishing semi-Shards of Wind, Stone, and Night (or Night is created by taking a huge chunk out of Odium residue instead, maybe the Midnight Mother is transformed into the Night proper or something).

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

This thread led me to my new crack-pot theory for the future / end of the Cosmere:

1. Honor (as part of Retribution) continues to develop more sapience and awareness, learns what is truly Honorable and eventually understands context/nuance

2. Honor develops it's own true Identity and rejects the Taravangian (at some point when T does something stupid that leaves him vulnerable to lose both Shards)

3. Honor stands in as the new vessel of Retribution, with stronger emphasis on Honor's Intent

4. Honorbution goes through the cosmere absorbing all of the splintered investiture from prior shards, eventually sucks up and takes on all of the other Shards, becoming Adonalsium re-formed with no human/mortal vessel

21 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

Hey! In the Postlude, in the Spiritual Realm, Kalak notices something:

Quote

That figure he couldn’t quite make out? That was Nale’s spren, he supposed.

No, it isn't. Highspren don't look like that.

It has to be the Wind.

Holy rust I'm definitely looking closer into this - I thought baseline assumption was that this blurb was included to imply that Nale was in fact still bonded to his spren.... but if this is not the case it's extremely interesting

 

Edit to add: am I unable to say "rust" here? It translated to rust lol

Edit again to add: yep! can't swear apparently, is this new? stormin wild, man

Edited March 17, 2025 by CognitiveShadow

[Onironte he/him]

10 hours ago, Ripheus23 said:

Maybe part of the endgame will be that Kaladin and Co. pull multiple semi-Shards from Honor, establishing semi-Shards of Wind, Stone, and Night (or Night is created by taking a huge chunk out of Odium residue instead, maybe the Midnight Mother is transformed into the Night proper or something).

I really like that theory, hope it comes truth sometime...

 

9 hours ago, CognitiveShadow said:

1. Honor (as part of Retribution) continues to develop more sapience and awareness, learns what is truly Honorable and eventually understands context/nuance

2. Honor develops it's own true Identity and rejects the Taravangian (at some point when T does something stupid that leaves him vulnerable to lose both Shards)

3. Honor stands in as the new vessel of Retribution, with stronger emphasis on Honor's Intent

4. Honorbution goes through the cosmere absorbing all of the splintered investiture from prior shards, eventually sucks up and takes on all of the other Shards, becoming Adonalsium re-formed with no human/mortal vessel

An Honorful god indeed... the mind on the god being only the consequence of it's own powers. But Honorbution would be still un-full, as is not Honorable to took the god from the people, to get Devotion and Ascend while destroying Elantrians. So Honorbution probably would not take all the Shards, what would make him Un-Harmonious. And Honor is still a child. Ati used to be kind and generous, Honor would have agreed with killing Odium, even if that resulted in the end of Roshar. Ati became a psychopath. Even though he wasn't partially brought up by Odium and Taravangian.

[Nitpicking]

On 3/17/2025 at 3:45 PM, Ripheus23 said:

Maybe part of the endgame will be that Kaladin and Co. pull multiple semi-Shards from Honor, establishing semi-Shards of Wind, Stone, and Night (or Night is created by taking a huge chunk out of Odium residue instead, maybe the Midnight Mother is transformed into the Night proper or something).

Wind, Stone and Night are Splinters of Adonalsium, though. They aren't aligned with any one Shard, they have some proportion of all the Sixteen, since (like the Shards as a collective) they come from Adonalsium-as-a-whole.

[Trusk'our he/him]

2 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

Wind, Stone and Night are Splinters of Adonalsium, though. They aren't aligned with any one Shard, they have some proportion of all the Sixteen, since (like the Shards as a collective) they come from Adonalsium-as-a-whole.

It's not really known yet, but it sounds like at least most Investiture in the Cosmere is associated with a particular Shard, even if indirectly. 

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/315-general-reddit-2018/#e9385

ReadAndFindOut

In 2014, Brandon said First of the Sun - the planet in Sixth of the Dusk - is a minor Shardworld, in that it does not have a Shard present (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/103-salt-lake-city-comic-con-2014/#e1010). However, we've now gotten a WoB saying that Patji - the Father island - IS a Shard (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8606). Patji was a Shard, but isn't during SotD? Or did we finally get confirmation on that elusive "Survival Shard"? What do you guys think?

Brandon Sanderson

I stand by them. Though, as always, quotes and WoBs at signings aren't always as deliberately thought out as I'd like them to be. Answering questions on the fly can be challenging, and my phrasing can be bad in retrospect.

But no Shard was in residence on First of the Sun during the events of that story. The Investiture on that planet is residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium. Everything happening there could happen with or without a Shard present. Indeed, I would say that no Shard was ever "in residence" on First of the Sun.

The being called Patji still exists, and is a Shard of Adonalsium. Shards in the past have been interested in First of the Sun, and have meddled in small ways there. (Like they have on a lot of Shardworlds.)

Note that I might have been a little misleading in the first quote by bringing up Threnody, which is a real corner case in the cosmere because of uncommon events there.

That said, I'm sure that every story I write about a planet will bring up the quirks and unusual interactions of the magic there, because that's kind of what I do. (First of the Sun has its own oddities, as mentioned in Arcanum Unbounded.) Every planet is likely to end up as a corner case in some way, just like every person is distinctive in their own way, and never fully fits expectations.

I still consider one of the major dividing lines between "major" and "minor" Shardworlds (other than Shard residence) to be in strength of access to the magic, and control over it. I intend the minor Shardworlds to involve interactions with the magic as setting--coming back to spren, you could have a minor Shardworld with people who use, befriend, even bond spren. (Or the local equivalent--Seon, Aviar, etc.) But you'd never see power on the level of the city of Elantris, the actions of a Bondsmith, or even the broad power suite of a Mistborn.

But, as ever, the cosmere is a work in progress. The needs of telling a great story trump things I've said about what I'm planning. (I do try as much as I can to avoid having two texts contradict one another. And when they do, that's often a lapse on my part.)

Oversleep

Wait.

I'm confused.

So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium?

Cause the question was a follow up (on this) where you revealed that all Investiture in Cosmere got assigned to a Shard even if it wasn't part of a Shard.

And then you said that the one on First of the Sun is directly associated with one of the Shards (and since later you revealed Patji to be an avatar of Autonomy (also, what are avatars and how do they work?)) we took it to mean that at one point Autonomy Invested in First of the Sun.

But now you're saying it didn't?

If there was no Shard ever on First of the Sun but Patji is a Shard/avatar of a Shard then where is Patji, actually?

Could you please clarify all that?

Brandon Sanderson

So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium?"

The reason I have so much trouble answering these questions (and you'll see me struggling to get an answer in the 10-15 seconds I have when someone asks me in a signing line) is because this isn't an either or. Is this computer I'm using matter associated with Earth, the Big Bang, or such-and-such star that went supernova long ago? Well, it's probably all three.

When people ask, "What Shard is this Investiture associated with" it gets very complicated. Shards influence and tweak certain Investiture, giving it a kind of spin or magnetism, but all Investiture ever predates the Shattering--and in the cosmere matter, energy, and Investiture are one thing.

I always imagine Investiture having certain states, certain magnetisms if you will, associated with certain aspects of Adonalsium. So it's all "assigned" to a Shard--because it's always been associated with that Shard. To Investiture, Adonalsium's Shattering meant everything and nothing at the same time.

We generally mean the term "Invested" to mean a Shard has taken permanent residence in a location, a kind of base of operations--but at the same time, this is meaningless, since distance has no meaning on the Spiritual Realm, where most Shards are. So imprisonment of a Shard like Ruin or Odium is a crude expression--but the best we have.

Autonomy never "Invested" on First of the Sun. But even answering (as someone else asked) if they created an avatar without visiting is a difficult thing to explain--because even explaining how a Shard travels (when motion is irrelevant) is difficult to manage. It's a subject that I intend to be up for debate, discussion, and argument by in-world philosophers and arcanists.

You can see why I have such troubles explaining these things at signings--and why I fail when I try to, considering the time limitations and (often) fatigue limitations placed upon me. These are concepts I intend to spend entire, lengthy epic volumes explaining and exploring.

Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of Investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "Invested" there? No, no more than you're Invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of matter and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time.

And...I'm already into WAY more than I want to be typing this out right now. If it's confusing, it's because it's practically impossible for me to explain these things in a short span of time.

I'm going to leave it here, understanding that no, I haven't fully explained your question. (I didn't even get into what avatars are, what Patji was, and what happened to Patji the being--and how that relates to Patji the island.) But hopefully this kind of starts to point the right direction, though I probably should have just left this question alone because I bet this post is going to raise more questions than it answers...

Overlord Jebus

You've confused things so much now. We thought we had a pretty good grasp of this whole Patji situation (Autonomy visited the planet at some point, got themselves all Invested and created an avatar which is called Patji by the locals).

Now you're saying no Shard has ever visited there? And that the pool would have existed if no Shard had ever interfered? But that Patji still exists and is a Shard?

Does that mean Autonomy edited First of the Sun from afar without actually going there? And that the pool would have already existed without any intervention? Does this mean it was associated with Autonomy from the beginning? I'm really confused now.

Brandon Sanderson

I don't believe I said no Shard had visited. I said no Shard was there during the events of the story.

Investiture on First of the Sun predates any Shards fiddling with it.

Shards have fiddled with it by the time of the story.

I think fandom might be going down too far a rabbit hole on this one.

Chaos

Are you saying here that Patji is an avatar of Autonomy, or is it a separate Shard and not an avatar of Autonomy?

Brandon Sanderson

When I said Patji was a Shard, I was meaning Automony--but it is not quite that simple.

Take this post to mean "no, you should not be looking toward another Shard for Patji's origins. Autonomy is the one relevant." But Autonomy's relationships with entities like this (not sure entity is the right word, even) is complex. I'm not trying to confuse the issue, though.

The two exceptions that might exist, to my own thinking at least, are the Aethers and Dawnshards (though the latter are even more ambiguous due to being an end product of Adonalsium's work).

I'd personally say that the Wind, Stone, and Night Spren aren't truly independent of the Shards, but perhaps have less direct influence from them.

Edited March 20, 2025 by Trusk'our

[Ripheus23]

2 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

Wind, Stone and Night are Splinters of Adonalsium, though. They aren't aligned with any one Shard, they have some proportion of all the Sixteen, since (like the Shards as a collective) they come from Adonalsium-as-a-whole.

I was wondering whether Kaladin could transform the Wind Splinter into a Wind Shard, maybe? Like he'd become so Invested in the Wind that he would be like a Vessel for a totally new Shard, born from a Splinter of Adonalsium co-opted by Honor after the Shattering, redeemed from Retribution's influence as part of the SA endgame? (Like the Ancient Daughter is the sister of the Honorchild, almost. Ooooh, imagine Syl becoming the very Vessel of Wind! *C'mon reverse time dilation, we can't survive 20 more years waiting for all this *)

Hmm... So my theory about the palindrome/ketek of the whole series says we can use "H" wherever, so maybe the last book could be HW for To Hold the Wind, like Kaladin is the holder of the Shard of Wind, or Syl is the holder, or whatever.

... or, hmm, "Honor" starts with an "H", so not a bad option, using the word "Honor" in a title somewhere. To Honor the Wind, The Honor of the World, Honor's Wrath/Woe, etc.

Edited March 20, 2025 by Ripheus23

[Nitpicking]

22 hours ago, Ripheus23 said:

I was wondering whether Kaladin could transform the Wind Splinter into a Wind Shard, maybe? Like he'd become so Invested in the Wind that he would be like a Vessel for a totally new Shard, born from a Splinter of Adonalsium co-opted by Honor after the Shattering, redeemed from Retribution's influence as part of the SA endgame?

I've been assuming that the Shard/Vessel relationship is similar in principle to the various Splinter/mortal relationships (Nahel bonds), e. g. spren/radiant, seon/human. Shards work on absurdly long timescales compared to humans, so it takes longer for (say) Honor to become sapient than (say) a windspren to become Sylphrena. I wonder if musicspren/rhyshadium bonds could eventually create a sapient spren. Or mandra/Ancient Guardian.

[Nitpicking]

On 3/16/2025 at 6:50 PM, Nitpicking said:

Hey! In the Postlude, in the Spiritual Realm, Kalak notices something:

No, it isn't. Highspren don't look like that.

It has to be the Wind.

To expand on the point (I left this out by accident when posting), this is why the Wind is nowhere to be found after the new Oathpact is sworn. She's in the Spiritual Realm with the Heralds (and Syl).

[LeondeBowa]

5 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

To expand on the point (I left this out by accident when posting), this is why the Wind is nowhere to be found after the new Oathpact is sworn. She's in the Spiritual Realm with the Heralds (and Syl).

I thought the strange person mistaken for a highspren was a tall woman coloured blue, isn't that syl in their new stormqueen form?

[AlmightyGir]

12 minutes ago, LeondeBowa said:

I thought the strange person mistaken for a highspren was a tall woman coloured blue, isn't that syl in their new stormqueen form?

Have we considered:

Syl and Wind are now the same being?

[LeondeBowa]

3 minutes ago, AlmightyGir said:

Have we considered:

Syl and Wind are now the same being?

Could be

I vaguely remember a thing about stormfather being made from the wind so it would track

[Nitpicking]

2 hours ago, LeondeBowa said:

I thought the strange person mistaken for a highspren was a tall woman coloured blue, isn't that syl in their new stormqueen form?

No, they're two different spren.

Quote

Who was that soldier in Kholin blue? That figure he couldn’t quite make out? That was Nale’s spren, he supposed. But that woman with white-blue hair, long and flowing? She didn’t belong here.

[LeondeBowa]

Isn't that just Kaladin? Soldier in kholin blue

No there are 3 people mentioned,

Soldier in kholin blue

A figure he couldn't quite make out

A woman with blue-white hair

So syl and Kaladin are obvious,

But the 3rd can be Nales spren

A high spren is basically a figure, a figure made out of stars in the night sky

Basically we don't have enough information but we don't have anything to disprove kalaks supposition

[Nitpicking]

A highspren is a jet black silhouette with stars visible in it. It isn't hard to make out against the sky. It would stand out like ... like a black silhouette against a bright background.