Trusk'our he/him Posted March 13, 2025 Posted March 13, 2025 (edited) Compounding works by overwriting the "frequency" that Allomantic Investiture normally uses, providing you with more Feruchemical power instead. Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/220-open-the-fridge-interview/#e4702 Lyndsey Luther Ok, last question. It was really difficult coming up with three questions that haven’t been asked already... Brandon Sanderson OK... you’re not going to ask me the “what would you ask me” question? Lyndsey Luther Not quite... Brandon Sanderson OK good, because I hate that one! (laughs) Lyndsey Luther My question is if there’s anything that you’ve never been asked that you would like to talk about? Brandon Sanderson Oooooh, ok. Hm. That one is so hard! Every time people ask me something like this... What have I never been asked that people should be asking, is basically what the question is? Something that the fans have just missed... They pick up on so much, that it’s hard... I do wonder if, you know… all the magic systems [in my books] are connected and work on some basic fundamental principles, and a lot of people haven’t been asking questions about this. One thing I did get a question on today, and I’ll just talk about this one... they didn’t ask the right question, but I nudged them the right way, is understanding that tie between AonDor [the magic system from Elantris] and Allomancy [Mistborn’s magic system]. People ask about getting the power from metals and things, but that’s not actually how it works. The power’s not coming from metal. I talked a little about this before, but you are drawing power from some source, and the metal is actually just a gateway. It’s actually the molecular structure of the metal… what’s going on there, the pattern, the resonance of that metal works in the same way as an Aon does in Elantris. It filters the power. So it is just a sign of “this is what power this energy is going to be shaped into and give you.” When you understand that, Compounding [in Alloy of Law] makes much more sense. Compounding is where you are able to kind of draw in more power than you should with Feruchemy. What’s going on there is you’re actually charging a piece of metal, and then you are burning that metal as a Feruchemical charge. What is happening is that the Feruchemical charge overwrites the Allomantic charge, and so you actually fuel Feruchemy with Allomancy, is what you are doing. Then if you just get out another piece of metal and store it in, since you’re not drawing the power from yourself, you’re cheating the system, you’re short-circuiting the system a little bit. So you can actually use the power that usually fuels Allomancy, to fuel Feruchemy, which you can then store in a metalmind, and basically build up these huge reservoirs of it. So what’s going on there is… imagine there’s like, an imprint, a wavelength, so to speak. A beat for an Allomantic thing, that when you burn a metal, it says “ok, this is what power we give.” When it’s got that charge, it changes that beat and says, “now we get this power.” And you access a set of Feruchemical power. That’s why Compounding is so powerful. I think, then, that Compounding would only contribute to the Feruchemical part of building a Resonance since it's using Feruchemy's frequency, not Allomancy's. Miles, for example, would burn gold for its Allomantic component only on occasion- not like how Wax uses both steel and iron on a regular basis, or even Wayne with his in bursts. I suspect that Miles' Resonance would be really weak or functionally non-existent. Other Compounders who use both elements, like double steel, would probably not have this issue. Edited March 13, 2025 by Trusk'our 1
Treamayne Posted March 13, 2025 Posted March 13, 2025 1 hour ago, Trusk'our said: I think, then, that Compounding would only contribute to the Feruchemical part of building a Resonance since it's using Feruchemy's frequency, not Allomancy's. Right, but they are effectivly trading Resonance for access to Savantism (if that is desired). Spoiler Questioner There are Allomantic savants, are there Feruchemical savants? Brandon Sanderson Much harder to do. My feeling on Feruchemical savants was because it was your own power in the first place, you can't steep in it so much in the way. But, if you can get someone else's power or if you are fueling your Feruchemy another way, you would become one. So, the Lord Ruler is a good example. Questioner Was Miles a... Brandon Sanderson Yeah. Miles would be the same sort of thing. Questioner Is that why he didn't die as quickly in the execution? Brandon Sanderson Yes. So yeah. Normally no but if you can Compound you become... basically that is how I am explaining part of the Compounding abilities. Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019) If you are burning both Allomantic <metal> and Compounded F-<Metal> you may develop a Resonance, but if you are burning F-<Metal> for compounding almost exclusively, then you are likely to develop Savanatism. With the exception of near-immortals like TLR, it's probaly unlikely to ever develop both in a Twinborn. 1
DoctaDajman Posted March 13, 2025 Posted March 13, 2025 1 hour ago, Treamayne said: Right, but they are effectivly trading Resonance for access to Savantism (if that is desired). Reveal hidden contents Questioner There are Allomantic savants, are there Feruchemical savants? Brandon Sanderson Much harder to do. My feeling on Feruchemical savants was because it was your own power in the first place, you can't steep in it so much in the way. But, if you can get someone else's power or if you are fueling your Feruchemy another way, you would become one. So, the Lord Ruler is a good example. Questioner Was Miles a... Brandon Sanderson Yeah. Miles would be the same sort of thing. Questioner Is that why he didn't die as quickly in the execution? Brandon Sanderson Yes. So yeah. Normally no but if you can Compound you become... basically that is how I am explaining part of the Compounding abilities. Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019) If you are burning both Allomantic <metal> and Compounded F-<Metal> you may develop a Resonance, but if you are burning F-<Metal> for compounding almost exclusively, then you are likely to develop Savanatism. With the exception of near-immortals like TLR, it's probaly unlikely to ever develop both in a Twinborn. I could see certain metals that would be used in conjunction, even when compounding having some sort of resonance as well. Pewter, Tin, Iron, Brass, Zinc, and Bronze are the ones that really come to the top of my mind. I simply say that because I can see ample opportunities to use both powers in conjunction with eachother and I kind of feel like the resonance would not necessarily come at the cost of savantism but right along side of the possibility. Unless there is something that specifically states that both cannot exist with eachother I think it would more than likely be associated with constant use, learning the little tricks and making those a subconscious thing you are doing while using both abilities together. Savantism comes from overuse and resonances come from synergy. I figure the hardest part of gaining both has more to do with cost of materials than anything. 1
Quantus he/him Posted March 14, 2025 Posted March 14, 2025 17 hours ago, DoctaDajman said: I could see certain metals that would be used in conjunction, even when compounding having some sort of resonance as well. Pewter, Tin, Iron, Brass, Zinc, and Bronze are the ones that really come to the top of my mind. I simply say that because I can see ample opportunities to use both powers in conjunction with eachother and I kind of feel like the resonance would not necessarily come at the cost of savantism but right along side of the possibility. Unless there is something that specifically states that both cannot exist with eachother I think it would more than likely be associated with constant use, learning the little tricks and making those a subconscious thing you are doing while using both abilities together. Savantism comes from overuse and resonances come from synergy. I figure the hardest part of gaining both has more to do with cost of materials than anything. Just to a bit clarify further: Savantism comes from over-use Warping the Spirtweb (and doylistically will always have a downside). Resonances are when the energies of two Powers interact in weird ways to create effects that are related (thought not obviously so) but generally distinct, like Windrunners getting more squires in a weird Spiritual Twist on Gravity+Adhesion, or Lightweaver Memory in a weird Cognitive Twist of Lightweaving+Soulcasting. And then there's just good tactical/synergistic use of two powers together, like weight+Pushing making you hit way harder, or F-Tin protecting you against A-Tin's downsides. There are also some things that were once described as Savantism but now are being called Just Skill, which I believe is where Wax's bubble push currently is. 1
Treamayne Posted March 14, 2025 Posted March 14, 2025 18 hours ago, DoctaDajman said: I figure the hardest part of gaining both has more to do with cost of materials than anything. Well, the hardest part of Savantism is using enough Investiture to become a savant. It is nearly impossible to becme a Savant in Feruchemy at all, and is only possible for Compounders because they can burn their metalminds. The crux of my point was: If you are burning enough F-<metal> to become a savant for that; you are not likely burning enough A-<metal> to also develope a resonance (Such as Miles - he was an F-Gold Savant, but did not have an A-Gold/F-Gold resonance because he did not burn enough normal gold to develop a synergy) If you are burning enough A-<metal> and F-<metal> to develop a Resonance for the two powers, you are not likely burning enough of either to become a Savant in either. The only reason Raskek was able to become a Savant in multiple metals was because he had 1000+years to do so, and started further along the path than others because of how he gave Allomancy to himself with the well. 28 minutes ago, Quantus said: There are also some things that were once described as Savantism but now are being called Just Skill, which I believe is where Wax's bubble push currently is. Yes. WoB: Spoiler Brandon Sanderson Warning, Evgeni. I'm really considering doing a backpedal on savants. The more i think about them, the less I'm not liking how my current course has them being treated in upcoming books. I think it deviates too far from my original vision. Argent Hey, I wouldn't normally contact you directly like this, but given that you thought it important enough to reach out and let me know you might change how savants work, I figured you probably wouldn't be too upset by this message. I replied to your Facebook comment, asking if you could clarify a little bit which aspects of savantism you are thinking of keeping and/or cutting. I don't need an essay on the topic (though you know I'd love one!), just some details on what we can consider canon for theories, and what we should be careful around. Brandon Sanderson Evgeni, So here's the problem. The more I dig into savants in the later outlines, the more I feel that I'm in a dangerous area--in that I'm disobeying their original intention. (Which is that using the power so much that it permeates your soul can be dangerous, a kind of uncontrolled version of a spren bond.) And so, I don't want to let myself just start making people savants right and left. It needs to be a specific thing. Wax is the troubling one, as I have him burning so much steel that he's well on his way, but isn't showing any side effects. If I'm going to give him savant-like abilities, he needs savant-like consequences. That's the danger, just falling back on savanthood to do some of the things I want, so often that it undermines the actual point and purpose of them in the cosmere lore. So if I backpedal, it will be to contain this and point myself the right way, sharply curtailing my desire to make people savants without their savanthood being an intrinsic part of their story and conflict in life. (Like it was for Spook, and is for Soulcasting savants on Roshar.) Feel free to share this. Argent Okay, so - if you do decide to go this route, I see the story implications (larger focus on consequences, less easy to get to the point where a character can be considered a savant). What I am not sure about is the potential for a mechanical change. Would a backpedal on your side cause a conflict with information you've shared with us, in or out of your books? Are you saying that it's possible that Wax won't be considered a savant (if you can't squeeze a good ramifications plot for him that doesn't contradict the apparent lack of consequences so far, for example)? Brandon Sanderson I haven't decided on anything yet. It's mostly consequences for the future--just a kind of, "be aware I'm not 100% pleased with how Wax turned out, re: savanthood and Allomantic resonance." The idea of resonance is that two powers, combined, meld kind of into one single power. This is a manifestation of the way Shards combine. Wax was intended as a savant of the two melded powers. But without consequences in his plot, I'm not confident that I'll continue in the same vein for future books. Footnote: The first message comes from Brandon reaching out to Argent (Evgeni) on Facebook with a follow-up regarding this entry. This rest is from a Reddit PM exchange between Argent and Brandon. Miscellaneous 2016 (Dec. 15, 2016) Which was followed up in TLM with the scene of the Set Coinshot also being able to use a Steel Bubble.
DoctaDajman Posted March 14, 2025 Posted March 14, 2025 34 minutes ago, Quantus said: Just to a bit clarify further: Savantism comes from over-use Warping the Spirtweb (and doylistically will always have a downside). Resonances are when the energies of two Powers interact in weird ways to create effects that are related (thought not obviously so) but generally distinct, like Windrunners getting more squires in a weird Spiritual Twist on Gravity+Adhesion, or Lightweaver Memory in a weird Cognitive Twist of Lightweaving+Soulcasting. And then there's just good tactical/synergistic use of two powers together, like weight+Pushing making you hit way harder, or F-Tin protecting you against A-Tin's downsides. There are also some things that were once described as Savantism but now are being called Just Skill, which I believe is where Wax's bubble push currently is. I thought the bubble push was more of a Resonance. Perhaps we have yet to see a true resonance in the metallic arts. My issue with resonances as they show up in radiant abilities is that they don't really follow the use of the magic all that much. Kaladin was a born leader and people were drawn to him before Syl. If these are the examples of resonances and are prevalent before the person has long lasting exposure to magic usage I am not convinced we see a ton of examples in any other systems. My thoughts were more along the lines of synergies however I realize that is a very literal takeaway from what resonances are. Resonance occurs when an object's vibrations are amplified by matching vibrations from another object. When I think of that it literally is the synergies of abilities lining up. Where a zinc compounder may find a point where the two powers line up with eachother to create something more than the two on their own. Being able to recognize and really grow upon the rioting in action to amplify effects and potentially find a new and seperate effect entirely. If I try to reconcile it with any definition of resonance I would think that each use of investiture is based on some sort of rhythm and as those rhythms interact with eachother there are points where they amplify eachother as they line up perfectly. There is also a point where there would be the opposite effect and the two rhythms cancel eachother out and hurt one another. Any effect of this spiritual phenomenon crossing into the Physical realm would be a Resonance and realizing it is the Trick... even if it is as subtle as looking like a natural born human behavior specialist (thinking the show Lie To Me). 11 minutes ago, Treamayne said: Well, the hardest part of Savantism is using enough Investiture to become a savant. It is nearly impossible to becme a Savant in Feruchemy at all, and is only possible for Compounders because they can burn their metalminds. The crux of my point was: If you are burning enough F-<metal> to become a savant for that; you are not likely burning enough A-<metal> to also develope a resonance (Such as Miles - he was an F-Gold Savant, but did not have an A-Gold/F-Gold resonance because he did not burn enough normal gold to develop a synergy) If you are burning enough A-<metal> and F-<metal> to develop a Resonance for the two powers, you are not likely burning enough of either to become a Savant in either. The only reason Raskek was able to become a Savant in multiple metals was because he had 1000+years to do so, and started further along the path than others because of how he gave Allomancy to himself with the well. Yes. WoB: Hide contents Brandon Sanderson Warning, Evgeni. I'm really considering doing a backpedal on savants. The more i think about them, the less I'm not liking how my current course has them being treated in upcoming books. I think it deviates too far from my original vision. Argent Hey, I wouldn't normally contact you directly like this, but given that you thought it important enough to reach out and let me know you might change how savants work, I figured you probably wouldn't be too upset by this message. I replied to your Facebook comment, asking if you could clarify a little bit which aspects of savantism you are thinking of keeping and/or cutting. I don't need an essay on the topic (though you know I'd love one!), just some details on what we can consider canon for theories, and what we should be careful around. Brandon Sanderson Evgeni, So here's the problem. The more I dig into savants in the later outlines, the more I feel that I'm in a dangerous area--in that I'm disobeying their original intention. (Which is that using the power so much that it permeates your soul can be dangerous, a kind of uncontrolled version of a spren bond.) And so, I don't want to let myself just start making people savants right and left. It needs to be a specific thing. Wax is the troubling one, as I have him burning so much steel that he's well on his way, but isn't showing any side effects. If I'm going to give him savant-like abilities, he needs savant-like consequences. That's the danger, just falling back on savanthood to do some of the things I want, so often that it undermines the actual point and purpose of them in the cosmere lore. So if I backpedal, it will be to contain this and point myself the right way, sharply curtailing my desire to make people savants without their savanthood being an intrinsic part of their story and conflict in life. (Like it was for Spook, and is for Soulcasting savants on Roshar.) Feel free to share this. Argent Okay, so - if you do decide to go this route, I see the story implications (larger focus on consequences, less easy to get to the point where a character can be considered a savant). What I am not sure about is the potential for a mechanical change. Would a backpedal on your side cause a conflict with information you've shared with us, in or out of your books? Are you saying that it's possible that Wax won't be considered a savant (if you can't squeeze a good ramifications plot for him that doesn't contradict the apparent lack of consequences so far, for example)? Brandon Sanderson I haven't decided on anything yet. It's mostly consequences for the future--just a kind of, "be aware I'm not 100% pleased with how Wax turned out, re: savanthood and Allomantic resonance." The idea of resonance is that two powers, combined, meld kind of into one single power. This is a manifestation of the way Shards combine. Wax was intended as a savant of the two melded powers. But without consequences in his plot, I'm not confident that I'll continue in the same vein for future books. Footnote: The first message comes from Brandon reaching out to Argent (Evgeni) on Facebook with a follow-up regarding this entry. This rest is from a Reddit PM exchange between Argent and Brandon. Miscellaneous 2016 (Dec. 15, 2016) Which was followed up in TLM with the scene of the Set Coinshot also being able to use a Steel Bubble. Yeah the Savantism thing is a hard thing to balance. Certainly copper allomancers who are always burning (like Clubs) will find themselves at savantism levels of usage within their lifetimes but not all magics will have as noticeable downsides as others. (Physical magics will likely always have more downside than others). Miles issue of not finding a Resonance is probably because gold allomancy isn't worth using as much. Also why he could likely become a savant based on his gold consumption. We see Spook become a savant in a metal that is slow burning in just a couple of years. It doesn't take 100s of years to do it. A cheap enough metal with powers that are worth using all of the time could probably produce savantism in both A and F and you could certainly find resonances as well if you are using them together often. Of course it's Brandon's world and rool of cool will win out. Spooks downsides were cool to write about... but if he is going to take the fast and hard stance that every savant needs a downside how is he supposed to justify a coppercloud burning all the time. I feel like some resonances and savantism set skills are just more fun to write about and as he is trying to figure out his worlds he is building it becomes harder to stick to the rules... the magic becomes softer the more he writes and it makes sense to me that it has too.
Treamayne Posted March 14, 2025 Posted March 14, 2025 (edited) 37 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said: We see Spook become a savant in a metal that is slow burning in just a couple of years. It doesn't take 100s of years to do it. Minor Correction - We see Spook start to develop Savant effects from a metal he has burned every day of his life since the age of five and flaring every waking moment for over a year since Clubs died. The Rashek comment wasn't about taking a century to develop 1 metal - it was because Rashek had eventually become a Savant in all 8 Era 1 base metals. . . over a very long time (and I doubt he had even one day flaring a single metal as much as Spook did each day for the year after Clubs died). Conversely, we see how often Wax used both of his metals, but he was not nearly a Savant in either of them. 37 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said: Of course it's Brandon's world and rool of cool will win out. Spooks downsides were cool to write about... but if he is going to take the fast and hard stance that every savant needs a downside how is he supposed to justify a coppercloud burning all the time. Not all downsides will also be physical - but you are right that some metals have less of a (noticable) negative effect. Spoiler HoA Epigraph Ch 16: Quote They are called Allomantic savants. Men or women who flare their metals so long, and so hard, that the constant influx of Allomantic power transforms their very physiology. In most cases, with most metals, the effects of this are very slight. Bronze burners, for instance, often become bronze savants without knowing it. Their range is expanded from burning the metal so long. Becoming a pewter savant is dangerous, as it requires pushing the body so hard in a state where one cannot feel exhaustion or pain. Most accidentally kill themselves before the process is complete, and in my opinion, the benefit isn’t worth the effort. WoB: Quote Kingsdaughter613 Hero of Ages, Harmony in the epigraphs says that brass and copper Allomancers can become savants and never even notice. I know that generally savantism is supposed to have really extreme effects, so how does that work that they do not notice? Brandon Sanderson So, most savanthoods have extreme effects, some of them it's just not as noticeable. It can warp your soul without you really even paying that much attention to it. I kind of have a push and pull on how debilitating it is in some ways versus others. In this case, those are two that you can become that it would not be very debilitating in your life. Kingsdaughter613 What effects would that have for that? Brandon Sanderson I'll RAFO that. JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021) Quote Questioner There is quantitative difference in Allomancy (e.g. Elend is stronger than Vin), there is skill difference (e.g. Breeze is better than Vin with zinc), but is there a qualitative difference too? Brandon Sanderson That’s the scale of what we call savant. <redacted> It’s not just skill, the burning for long, using for so long, will actually adapt your soul to the power. Questioner So can bronze savants pierce copperclouds? Brandon Sanderson Yes, a bronze savant should be able to pierce copperclouds. It depends on the strengths of the coppercloud and the strength of the savant, but yes. Questioner So Elend could theoretically learn to pierce copperclouds? Brandon Sanderson Weaker ones, yeah, totally. He can learn how to do it by brute force. Shadows of Self San Francisco signing (Oct. 9, 2015) <Wax Savantism has been reversed> Quote Questioner So Allomantic Savants. So I was curious-- That system-- When that happens, is it purely physiological, or is there something else happening in terms of-- Brandon Sanderson Uhh, it's physiological in a cosmere sense, but that can involve your Cognitive and Spiritual aspects. Questioner I guess the question there is, are there other similar processes to savantism with other-- Brandon Sanderson Yeah, yeah you've seen it. So, Soulcasters. Argent Where their skin turns-- Brandon Sanderson Where they're slowly being-- their spirit is slowly being merged and infused with Investiture that is having Physical ramifications. It's the same thing. Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016) Quote Questioner 1 Do all Soulcasters risk turning into the element or is it only those using the device? Brandon Sanderson All Soulcasters have an affinity but the ones using the device are locked down much more than the Soulcasters who are Knights Radiant. Questioner 1 So they are protected from being turned into-- Brandon Sanderson Oh no they-- I wouldn't say protected... *clarification* Protected is the wrong term but that event, the savanthood and how it affects them and things like that is much less pronounced if you are a [Knight]. Questioner 1 Or is that counteracted by the healing as well? Brandon Sanderson Healing doesn't have to do with it because-- in cosmere terms there's nothing wrong with your body, your spirit is actually drifting, and so it's not hurting you physically by what's happening with the magics. So it's not the healing but if you have an active bond with a spren it takes a little different path. Let's just say, in simple terms-- Questioner 1 You are not losing body parts to smoke. Brandon Sanderson Yes, you are not losing body parts to smoke. Questioner 1 What timeframe does it happen for the normal Soulcasters then? Brandon Sanderson For normal Soulcasters? It takes-- I mean, you've seen it happening in the books. We are talking [about] a process of years even decades, depending on the person. It happens to some-- Questioner 2 Depending on how often they Soulcast? Brandon Sanderson It depends on how often they Soulcast, and it depends on the person. Oathbringer Leeds signing (Dec. 1, 2017) 37 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said: My issue with resonances as they show up in radiant abilities is that they don't really follow the use of the magic all that much. Kaladin was a born leader and people were drawn to him before Syl. If these are the examples of resonances and are prevalent before the person has long lasting exposure to magic usage I am not convinced we see a ton of examples in any other systems. Well, there are kind-of two different resonances with the Radiant Orders. There are the "merged power" abilities that come with two specific Surges. Examples: Kaladin can use a Reverse Lashing - but because it is a combination of Adhesion+Gravitation, neither Dalinar nor Szeth would be able to use a Reverse Lashing Shallan is able to add physical effects to her Illusions because that is Transformation+Illumination, but neither Jasnah nor Renarin would be able to do the same Separately, we have the "Order Resonance." While we do not have specific data yet, I believe that is part of how the Orders were perceived. Windrunners may have more Squires, but not every Windrunner gets excess squires (Lopen has no known squires, for example). Lightweavers may have Mnemonic abiltiies - but it does not seem like every Lightweaver has a version of eidetic memory as seen in Shallan - and some just a different memory feature (Stargyle and colors, for example) Edited March 14, 2025 by Treamayne SPAG 3
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