Killing a kings Wit

[bdoble97]

Hello I was just at my daughter karate class and another father pointed out to me that Killing a kings Wit is illegal to do. So When Wit gets zapped he was saying to me he thinks that it's a brake of the contract. This may have been brought up before. So I apologize if it has. He was saying to me that it is mentioned a few times throught out thw books. I am on my 1st ever reread of all 5 books so I am excited to read tho gs in a all new light so exciting haha

[RedBlue]

I’ve heard this theory bouncing around (that the conditional legality of killing the Queen’s Wit will be important) but I’m not convinced.

By the time Retribution vaporised Wit, Dalinar had already renounced his oaths, which releases Retribution from the contract. I don’t think there’s anything, at that point, which holds Retribution to the Alethi legal system. That leaves him free to attack Wit.

[Argenti he/him]

33 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

I’ve heard this theory bouncing around (that the conditional legality of killing the Queen’s Wit will be important) but I’m not convinced.

By the time Retribution vaporised Wit, Dalinar had already renounced his oaths, which releases Retribution from the contract. I don’t think there’s anything, at that point, which holds Retribution to the Alethi legal system. That leaves him free to attack Wit.

Well, there's also nothing that holds him to keeping up his side of the bargain for anything. But he does anyway, cus honor.

[Ashbringer he/him]

iirc, it was actually legal under Alethi law to kill the King's / Queen's Wit - just doing so made you forfeit your titles and lands. Which could be interesting, if Honor cares about that, but Taravangian also was never Alethi.

Wit has been specifically noted to have lost certain protections that would otherwise stop Shards from directly messing with him and the bonds between his cells, but I don't know if those necessarily apply to Retribution anymore.

(And, the extra kicker - Taravangian didn't actually successfully kill Wit. Whether he knows that, idk.)

[BinarySecond]

I do like this theory; Urithiru runs under Alethi law AFAIK - But I think if it ever becomes relevant Retribution will just get to argue Wit isn't dead (Assuming he actually knows)

[ShatteredDiamond She/Her]

Funny how at this point in the cosmere Wit can be vaporized by a shard and it doesn't even occur to me he might actually be dead I just kept reading to find out how he survived. One of these days Wit will die for real and I'll go into a coma.

[dezaS Hᴇ/Hɪᴍ]

2 hours ago, Phendorana said:

One of these days Wit will die for real and I'll go into a coma.

Not until the end of the cosmere! Maybe the end of Mistborn Era 4?

[bdoble97]

I don't think Wit will die I could see at the end kf all the Cosmere books many many years from now  I would love the last sentence be about Hoid laughing while he walks away and  has some great comment 

[TwinStorm He/Him]

5 hours ago, DezaS said:

Not until the end of the cosmere! Maybe the end of Mistborn Era 4?

sacrifice! sacrifice! sacrifice!

die saving the Cosmere

let him die as hes laughing

Edited February 19, 2025 by TwinStorm

[RefusesToElaborate]

20 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

iirc, it was actually legal under Alethi law to kill the King's / Queen's Wit - just doing so made you forfeit your titles and lands. Which could be interesting, if Honor cares about that, but Taravangian also was never Alethi.

Wit has been specifically noted to have lost certain protections that would otherwise stop Shards from directly messing with him and the bonds between his cells, but I don't know if those necessarily apply to Retribution anymore.

(And, the extra kicker - Taravangian didn't actually successfully kill Wit. Whether he knows that, idk.)

I think he did know that. The power of Odium had already sworn not to harm wit, didn't it? And the power was still fulfilling the Oaths that Dalinar renounced. 

I think it was less "Die" and more "get off my planet. I have things to do."

[RedBlue]

4 hours ago, RefusesToElaborate said:

The power of Odium had already sworn not to harm wit, didn't it? And the power was still fulfilling the Oaths that Dalinar renounced. 

Not harming Wit was part of the contract that no longer binds Taravangian because Dalinar revoked it.

Taravangian chose to leave Azimir and the Shattered Plains alone because that helped make Honor accept him as a Vessel, not because he had any further need to stick to the contract.

Honor doesn’t seem to have any objection to attacking Wit — it actually seems to view Wit as a threat, and approve of taking him out — so Taravangian has no reason to hold back.

[TheoreticalMagic]

About the end of the cosmere....given how prevalent the theme of "the best people to entrust with power are the ones who least want it" and the lengths to which Hoid has gone to avoid holding a Shard, I'm half expecting the cosmere to end with Adonalsium reforming in some way or to some degree and Hoid ends up reluctantly holding its power and being like "and I suppose that makes this the grandest joke in the history of the cosmere, but I for one, am NOT AMUSED."

Edited February 20, 2025 by TheoreticalMagic

[RedBlue]

On 2/20/2025 at 1:33 PM, TheoreticalMagic said:

given how prevalent the theme of "the best people to entrust with power are the ones who least want it" and the lengths to which Hoid has gone to avoid holding a Shard, I'm half expecting the cosmere to end with Adonalsium reforming in some way or to some degree and Hoid ends up reluctantly holding its power

TBH, the way Hoid is right now, he is not a guy I would trust with Shard levels of power. His attitude is very ‘I know better than you, I will make decisions on your behalf, and everyone will thank me later’ even though he is clearly far from infallible. He has a level of self-awareness about it, but that doesn’t stop him from making the same mistakes.

To give just one example: the way he messed up Sigzil’s life.

[bdoble97]

On 2/20/2025 at 8:33 AM, TheoreticalMagic said:

About the end of the cosmere....given how prevalent the theme of "the best people to entrust with power are the ones who least want it" and the lengths to which Hoid has gone to avoid holding a Shard, I'm half expecting the cosmere to end with Adonalsium reforming in some way or to some degree and Hoid ends up reluctantly holding its power and being like "and I suppose that makes this the grandest joke in the history of the cosmere, but I for one, am NOT AMUSED."

I would love somthing like this 

[TheoreticalMagic]

1 hour ago, RedBlue said:

TBH, the way Hoid is right now, he is not a guy I would trust with Shard levels of power. His attitude is very ‘I know better than you, I will make decisions on your behalf, and everyone will thank me later’ even though he is clearly far from infallible. He has a level of self-awareness about it, but that doesn’t stop him from making the same mistakes.

To give just one example: the way he messed up Sigzil’s life.

Oh I personally do not think Hoid would be a good choice for God at all, (right NOW), but I could see it thematically. Plus its worth noting that Hoid does seem to become incrementally more self-aware as the cosmere storyline has progressed, and we've seen POVs from him but yet to follow him as a main character - though its all but inevitable that he will be centered more as a main in later cosmere stories.....SO for me, speculating this far into the future goes hand in hand with my implicit assumption that Brandon's deliberately saving the lion's share of character development for Hoid til stories where he is centered as an actual protagonist.

So when I (somewhat tongue in cheek) talk about seeing this kind of ending in the future, I'm coming at it from the angle that Hoid is deliberately NOT intended to be Decent God material as he is at this stage in the cosmere, but if Brandon has that fate in mind for him, there are storylines yet to come, that'll revolve around leveling Hoid up in morality and responsibility before he and the cosmere arrive at that narrative point.

[The Stick]

Something else to note in this case is the deleted interlude The Traveler when Hoid and Frost meet on Yolen immediately post Hero of Ages. The two of them have a big fight, and it ends with Frost telling Hoid he cannot restore the lost to what they once were, and cannot bring back the dead. In addition, Frost asks why Hoid now sees the power he once denied. 

It is from this, I do not think Hoid wants to pick up Adonalsium. Rather, I think he want to go to the aforementioned place of the dead, pick up Adonalsium's soul or whatever, then reforge it back to how things were before the Shattering.

Just keep in mind this is all from a deleted scene that is not canon.