How long is the time skip gonna be?

[Blue-phoenix186]

so How long do you guys think the ghost bloods times skip is gonna be? I was thinking like 50 to 60 years. Since it’s supposed to be set in like a 1980s time period. Also, how do you think the survivor religion would change over that time? Would there be debates if the survivor even existed?  Or if everything that happened. In the first series actually happened. By. era 2 it’s still relatively excepted. That all the events from the first series happened and the survivor exist. Is another 50 to 60 years. Enough time to bring debates about it.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

They have too much physical proof. The very bunkers people survived the Catacendre in still exist. If you doubt the Survivor existed you'll be kind of a flatearther.

The main point of contention among Suvivorists I'd reckon to be the incorporation of the Malwish into the theology. Survivorism now will have to decided whether it is an ethnic religion or has a universal message.

[Treamayne]

35 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

The main point of contention among Suvivorists I'd reckon to be the incorporation of the Malwish into the theology. Survivorism now will have to decided whether it is an ethnic religion or has a universal message

Or, if it comes out that the Survivor visited the Malwish, you could end up with a Religious schism (like Shia and Sunni) for those survivorists that Accept the Survivor was the Southerner's Sovereign and those who do not.

[Duxredux he/him]

It's hard to say how theology will develop on Scadrial as we have relatively little information on the doctrine or requirements of the practitioners. I'm not sure if Survivorism, Sliverism, or the Path claim divine authority, at least in the context of creator, afterlife judge, omniscience, omnipotence, or if the object of reverence is even likely to intercede in their lives based on their actions. The Path are directed to not worship Harmony after all.

Survivorists I think in general are supposed to survive and adhere to practices that will help in the overall survival of Scadians and Scadrial. For example, it won't be hard to agree with personal survival while not necessarily having a conviction that Kelsier held the power of a Shard, is immortal, and is still alive and kicking while blessing people from the Mists. The necessity of communal survival practices for the general population will probably come into question when the population hits carrying capacity, particularly when it inconveniences daily living and it becomes difficult to see how an individual's adherence matters among millions or billions. Knowing Brandon's general views on the LGBTQIA community and that one of the few taboos that we know for Survivorism is homosexuality, I expect this to be a point of conflict and religious unrest among the Survivorists. It will probably be asked if Kelsier really is a good moral model and if following his directives is in the best interests of the individual or community.

I'm not directly familiar with Confucianism, so if anyone knows a practitioner or wants to chime in, please do so. Despite sometimes being described as the state religion of China, Confucius made no claim to a divine mandate, rather gave advice on moral and ethical conduct. As a result, Confucianism is sometime characterized as more of a philosophy than a religion, despite in many ways filling the same niche in directing individual practice. How this relates to Scadrial is if the religions are viewed and adhered to as moral philosophies based on great people or conflicting divine mandates dictating eternal salvation or damnation. Granted even only with philosophical differences, you can get extreme polarization and hostility just based on the direction a country's leaders are steering things.

 

Era 2 already had many of the old crew elevated to extreme reverence even though we as readers know how much they bickering, got into random philosophical debates, and in general were ordinary people. MeLaan had conversations with Marasi on the subject. What people revere, unfortunately others seem to often ridicule or scorn, even if it's as simple as which band or sports team they like. To use a Judeo-Christian example, the Catacendre may end up viewed like Noah and the ark, with some believing and accepting it, some questioning if the whole planet could have really been flooded, and some not really caring because believing it doesn't really affect them much here and now despite being an example of a deity's power to restart a planet.

Edited February 10, 2025 by Duxredux

[+Oltux72 he/him]

18 hours ago, Duxredux said:

It's hard to say how theology will develop on Scadrial as we have relatively little information on the doctrine or requirements of the practitioners. I'm not sure if Survivorism, Sliverism, or the Path claim divine authority, at least in the context of creator, afterlife judge, omniscience, omnipotence, or if the object of reverence is even likely to intercede in their lives based on their actions. The Path are directed to not worship Harmony after all.

That is very much based on a monotheist western religion. No Cosmere religion can claim to have created the world. They have a creation story on Scadrial. It does not involve the current gods. Yet, it is verifiable. For example, look at the fossil record.

18 hours ago, Duxredux said:

Survivorists I think in general are supposed to survive and adhere to practices that will help in the overall survival of Scadians and Scadrial. For example, it won't be hard to agree with personal survival while not necessarily having a conviction that Kelsier held the power of a Shard, is immortal, and is still alive and kicking while blessing people from the Mists.

Again, they have evidence. The Words of Founding are scientifically verifiable to an extent. You just have to dig. New plants and animals right at the layer laid down at the Catacendre. Geomagnetics. Artefacts from the old world. Just finding a calender would prove a miracle. You could even prove that the planet has been moved by checking the length of the year in the geological record.

Scadrians have direct physical unequivocal evidence of miracles. It is not just academic either. Everybody can go to New Serran. Their religious experience thus is different from our examples. You can quarrel seriously only about interpretation of the facts, not the facts themselves. If you are a hardline atheist on Scadrial you are basically delusional and they will treat you as such. Freedom of religion on Scadrial is not the same thing as it is here.

18 hours ago, Duxredux said:

The necessity of communal survival practices for the general population will probably come into question when the population hits carrying capacity, particularly when it inconveniences daily living and it becomes difficult to see how an individual's adherence matters among millions or billions. Knowing Brandon's general views on the LGBTQIA community and that one of the few taboos that we know for Survivorism is homosexuality, I expect this to be a point of conflict and religious unrest among the Survivorists. It will probably be asked if Kelsier really is a good moral model and if following his directives is in the best interests of the individual or community.

I really doubt whether Survivorist teaching really is about morals in a narrow sense. You cannot use Kelsier as a reason to say that stealing is wrong, for example.
Yet, again, the ancient Greeks, just to give an example, had no problem saying that adultery is wrong while telling stories about Zeus. If you are looking for the inherent contradictions in Survivorism as opposed to new developments then you'd have to look at the community versus the individual survival. The caves at the Catacendre - to give the obvious example - should have been filled with healthy, young, fertile people with a preponderance of women. On the other hand Survivorism supposedly also tells sick postmenopausal women or old men to survive. You may very well be able to build a case for eugenics from Survivorism as well as a case bitterly opposing it. There is ample room for conflict and schism. But it is not new.

[Duxredux he/him]

@Oltux72, you stated better the case I was trying to make, that because of the nature of Scadrial it's so much harder to make predictions about the religions using Earth as a reference point. We have so little information about the doctrines that I'm having difficulty understanding how Sliverism or Survivorism developed to what we saw in Era 2, considering the entire population at the time of the Catacendre experienced the remaking of the world with the Words of Founding deposited in a pile. 

That said, I'm unsure on the proper nomenclature to not offend anybody, but I do have to quibble with someone of your statements.  In part because it sounds like (and I could totally be wrong on this, and I apologize) you are making as broad statements as it seemed to you as perhaps it seemed I was making. I'll address them in no particular order.

For example, this comment:

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Their religious experience thus is different from our examples. You can quarrel seriously only about interpretation of the facts, not the facts themselves. If you are a hardline atheist on Scadrial you are basically delusional and they will treat you as such. Freedom of religion on Scadrial is not the same thing as it is here.

This only works if you equate theism with reverence of the Shards, and I'll just point towards the best known Rosharan atheist for a viewpoint that could live through the Catacendre and remain a logical atheist.

Actually, I'd say that freedom of religion can be just as complex considering Sazed doesn't want to be worshipped and included the hundreds of religions he had in the Words of Founding. 

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

No Cosmere religion can claim to have created the world. They have a creation story on Scadrial. It does not involve the current gods. Yet, it is verifiable. For example, look at the fossil record.

Uh... other than the Terris and Malwish? They have creation stories and just because the relevant deities died doesn't preclude them as religions. Cosmere spoilers:

Spoiler

Take the Beaconites of Canticle worshipping Adonalsium and making a case that made Nomad pause and consider.

This isn't to dispute the points about geological record (though I would be interested to know what it looks like after at least Rashek and Sazed have tampered with it by reshaping the world), but I'm not actually sure Scadrial has a fossil record. Cosmere spoilers

Spoiler

Assuming Nalthis and Scadrial are the same age as they presumably were both created not long after the Shattering, there may not be a fossil record on Scadrial if Zahel is right that his home planet doesn't have fossils.

Brandon's said Scadrial is a young planet and whether there are fossil fuels is something that's still in the air.

Quote

Cadmium (paraphrased)

You're in Houston, questions of Oil & Gas and energy sources will be naturally be bandied about.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Naturally.

Cadmium (paraphrased)

Is the gasoline on Scadrial a fossil fuel or biodiesel?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Oh. Hmm. Well It's fossil fue... No. What they're using now is mostly biodiesel, I think. It's not something we really talked out.

Cadmium (paraphrased)

Ok, we had a whole thread on 17th Shard and even discussed how scientifically fossil fuels could have been put into place during the Catacendre.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well, fossil fuels are possible, and I don't want to seem like I'm clearly giving credence to those that believe in a Young Earth, but Scadrial is a relatively young planet. Relatively.

Cadmium (paraphrased)

Young Earth doesn't bother me, though I know I'm not the majority.

Cadmium (paraphrased)

Where on Scadrial is it being produced? No mention of refineries in Elendel or the Roughs.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Where on Scadrial... Well it's... I'm going to have to RAFO that for now. It starts to touch on questions of the future as they will need more fuels for travel and they'll need to look for different sources.

Calamity Houston signing (Feb. 24, 2016)

 

As it is, the OP's question about how things will change boils down to what aspects of religion and the religious Brandon wants to represent and explore - and so I do expect some aspects to resemble IRL considerations. Which exactly, I have no clue. Maybe a rather lame stance, but Cosmere religions generally have to be vague so as to not be preachy and somehow not preclude Brandon's goal of not having a defined factually "right" religion. 

Edited February 11, 2025 by Duxredux

[+Oltux72 he/him]

32 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

@Oltux72, you stated better the case I was trying to make, that because of the nature of Scadrial it's so much harder to make predictions about the religions using Earth as a reference point. We have so little information about the doctrines that I'm having difficulty understanding how Sliverism or Survivorism developed to what we saw in Era 2, considering the entire population at the time of the Catacendre experienced the remaking of the world with the Words of Founding deposited in a pile.

Valid points. As far as I can tell, Survivorists simply take Harmony by his word. He does not want to be worshipped, so they don't worship him. They absolutely acknowledge that he exists and has divine powers. They just don't see him as a role model. And by saying that Harmony exists only due to Kelsier's action they are correct, again by Harmony's own admission.

36 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

This only works if you equate theism with reverence of the Shards, and I'll just point towards the best known Rosharan atheist for a viewpoint that could live through the Catacendre and remain a logical atheist.

In theory, perhaps you could remain on that standpoint. Yet on Scadrial Shards created the planet you are standing on. In fact they moved the planet twice and allowed a mere sliver to remake the genetics of the whole population.

44 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

This isn't to dispute the points about geological record (though I would be interested to know what it looks like after at least Rashek and Sazed have tampered with it by reshaping the world), but I'm not actually sure Scadrial has a fossil record.

Well, it follows basically natural laws, hence it must have sedimentation like the Earth and the basic shape of the land has been retained. It has major lakes and seasons. You should have records of biological activity in them, even if you don't have old macroscopic fossils.

48 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

Brandon's said Scadrial is a young planet and whether there are fossil fuels is something that's still in the air.

Spook worked with coal miners in Fadrex City. So there is at least coal.