Retribution and era 4

[bmcclure7]

The conflict in era four suggests that Retribution we continue to rule Roshar into era 4 if so what will this mean for the knights Radiant?

[Ewery1]

Hmm I don’t agree. There’s definitely room for Roshar and Scadrial to be at cross purposes without the shard of Retribution involved.

[Elegy he/him]

It would certainly be annoying for book 10 in a 10 book series to end on a cliffhanger and a promise that it will be resolved in book 13 (or 16) in another book series ... I wouldn't put it beyond Brandon (anymore), but I sure hope that's not the plan. I think it would be cool if Retribution's threat to the Cosmere was one of the central reasons for the tensions between the planets that lead to the space age conflict. Beyond that, we have enough other Shards (and non-Shards) that can pose threats so we don't have to resort to Odium or a variation of it as an antagonist for two thirds of the whole Cosmere.

[bmcclure7]

2 hours ago, Elegy said:

It would certainly be annoying for book 10 in a 10 book series to end on a cliffhanger and a promise that it will be resolved in book 13 (or 16) in another book series ... I wouldn't put it beyond Brandon (anymore), but I sure hope that's not the plan. I think it would be cool if Retribution's threat to the Cosmere was one of the central reasons for the tensions between the planets that lead to the space age conflict. Beyond that, we have enough other Shards (and non-Shards) that can pose threats so we don't have to resort to Odium or a variation of it as an antagonist for two thirds of the whole Cosmere.

You’re making some assumptions. First off you were assuming that the point of this series is to destroy or defeat retribution. I don’t think that’s going to happen regardless of how the series ends. In fact the whole point of Dalinar doing what he did was to produce a more mature shard. I doubt that this story would end with the destruction of that shard. 

2 hours ago, Ewery1 said:

Hmm I don’t agree. There’s definitely room for Roshar and Scadrial to be at cross purposes without the shard of Retribution involved.

Except for the fact, that specifically said that Roshar is that war, and that they recruit foreign people into their army in exchange for status in their society. That sounds much more retribution Then it does any other option. 

[RedBlue]

28 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

You’re making some assumptions. First off you were assuming that the point of this series is to destroy or defeat retribution. I don’t think that’s going to happen regardless of how the series ends. In fact the whole point of Dalinar doing what he did was to produce a more mature shard. I doubt that this story would end with the destruction of that shard. 

Retribution is shaping up to be the primary antagonist of Stormlight, and it would feel disappointing if the series ended without that main conflict being resolved. Given Taravangian’s personality, I can’t imagine how the conflict could be satisfactorily resolved without defeating him in a permanent manner.

Unless the plan is for Stormlight to be a story where the heroes lose, which I doubt. It would be an incredibly jarring tone shift.

38 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Except for the fact, that specifically said that Roshar is that war, and that they recruit foreign people into their army in exchange for status in their society. That sounds much more retribution Then it does any other option. 

I’m not sure how bribes/rewards are specifically Retribution themed? It seems like a normal strategy to me.

[bmcclure7]

8 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

Retribution is shaping up to be the primary antagonist of Stormlight, and it would feel disappointing if the series ended without that main conflict being resolved. Given Taravangian’s personality, I can’t imagine how the conflict could be satisfactorily resolved without defeating him in a permanent manner.

Unless the plan is for Stormlight to be a story where the heroes lose, which I doubt. It would be an incredibly jarring tone shift.

I’m not sure how bribes/rewards are specifically Retribution themed? It seems like a normal strategy to me.

1. I mean that Roshar is clearly in a real state of war with the rest of the cosmere and is eagerly looking for a soldiers. I wasn’t thinking about the bribes only the war itself. We know that war of the rest of the cosmic is exactly what the current retribution wants.

I can think of lots of ways for a storm like to end that don’t involve shattering retribution. 
 

1. Contribution rejected its current vessel and picks another vessel.

2. Retribution object, current vessel, and becomes self-aware enough to exist without a vessel.
 

3. Our heroes evacuate from Roshar going to Ashen humanities birthplace in the system rebuilding it.

4. Our heroes evacuate Roshar and leave the system entirely

5. Some sort of agreement or truth is formed with retribution.

 

 

[TheoreticalMagic]

Yeah I'm not convinced that the Roshar and Scadrial of the space age (that we've seen thus far) retain much of the cultural identity that shapes the current hero casts of each planet. The seemingly dominant forces of each planet being callous conquerors and predatory hyper-capitalists doesn't IMO mean that the heroes of "modern" Roshar and Scadrial that might have opposed such predilections end up dying or defeated.....not when worldhopping is a thing. I do think Retribution (or an even worse Shard Intent or combination that somehow replaces it) will still be the driving force behind Roshar by the time of Isles of the Emberdark, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Taravangian is still in the driver's seat by then, nor does it mean that anti-Retribution forces like the Azirish, Venli's Listeners, the Urithiru Radiants and the Unoathed are subsumed into Retribution's war or defeated by them.

I could definitely see the Heralds (more of them replaced by other modern-age Rosharans, even, like Shallan, Renarin or Adolin), still being an immortal vanguard of the opposition to Roshar centuries from now, after having helped lead Retribution's enemies from Roshar back to Ashyn or somewhere else.

This is only a little bit because I want to see a Kaladin and Sigzil reunion centuries in the future. 

Okay fine, its like 90% because I want that.

(Also, I do really hope that Kaladin, Adolin and Shallan finally get to have that drink at the end of "all this" like they promised each other before they parted ways, but I could definitely see that being fulfilled via a Brandon twist that places that drink together once all of this is over....on a distant planet centuries from now. He's like "still counts!" But I mean, if it meant I get to keep some faves around longterm throughout the greater cosmere conflict, that's worth not getting them having that moment by the end of Stormlight Book 10, specifically. Personally, I'm here for the cosmere longhaul rather than just Stormlight - though I get that's not true for everyone and I respect that - so for me, I'd rather have more faves sticking around longterm than shorter/finite narratives for them that definitively end in the next five books. But that's just where I land).

Edited January 28, 2025 by TheoreticalMagic

[Elegy he/him]

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

You’re making some assumptions. First off you were assuming that the point of this series is to destroy or defeat retribution. I don’t think that’s going to happen regardless of how the series ends. In fact the whole point of Dalinar doing what he did was to produce a more mature shard. I doubt that this story would end with the destruction of that shard. 

I did not say anything about Retribution being "destroyed". You seem to be the one making assumptions. (It's practically impossible to "destroy" a Shard anyway.)

I am saying that it is unlikely for a series that has Odium/Retribution as a main antagonist to end without a solution for the threat that Odium represents for Roshar. A solution can be found in many potential ways. So I don't see how what you're saying counter my point that it would be a bad move storytelling-wise to end a series that will presumably be longer than the entirety of Wheel of Time with the main problem unresolved.

Edited January 28, 2025 by Elegy
Phrasing

[RedBlue]

19 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

I mean that Roshar is clearly in a real state of war with the rest of the cosmere and is eagerly looking for a soldiers. I wasn’t thinking about the bribes only the war itself. We know that war of the rest of the cosmic is exactly what the current retribution wants.

I agree that Roshar seems to be looking to expand its sphere of influence in the space age, and it’s willing to use aggression to do that. I don’t think this necessarily means that Retribution is still around. Retribution is not the only being in the cosmere willing and able to conduct space warfare.

22 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

I can think of lots of ways for a storm like to end that don’t involve shattering retribution. 

I’m not arguing that Retribution must be shattered at the end of Stormlight — there have to be other ways of dealing with Shards — I’m arguing that Taravangian must be defeated. I don’t know what that will look like, but it has to result in Retribution no longer existing in the same form. 

 

25 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

1. Contribution rejected its current vessel and picks another vessel.

2. Retribution object, current vessel, and becomes self-aware enough to exist without a vessel.

I could see either of these (or both, if Odium and Honor fall apart again) being the ending, as they both involve defeating Taravangian and they can both happen in such a way that the resulting Shard(s) no longer pose a threat to Roshar. This resolves the conflict. And it also means that Retribution doesn’t exist anymore, at least not in its current form.

30 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

3. Our heroes evacuate from Roshar going to Ashen humanities birthplace in the system rebuilding it.

4. Our heroes evacuate Roshar and leave the system entirely

5. Some sort of agreement or truth is formed with retribution.

I can’t see any of these working as an ending, because they don’t resolve the main conflict. If the heroes move away, then Retribution is still a threat, and they have only succeeded in delaying the inevitable showdown. If they make an agreement with Retribution, they’re in the same spot they were at the beginning of the story — trapped with a hostile Shard bound by oaths that it will circumvent at the first opportunity. That’s not very satisfying as a conclusion.

 

I expect the ending of Stormlight to come at a cost to the heroes. No victory is ever easy for them. But, to me at least, this is a story about hope and heroism. It’s about not giving up on yourself, about believing that you can overcome the odds and even your own failings, about figuring out what doing the right thing means and then making it happen.

I will be baffled if the culmination of this story turns out to be ‘it doesn’t work, the best you can hope for is a compromise with a tyrannical conqueror.’

[bmcclure7]

44 minutes ago, Elegy said:

I did not say anything about Retribution being "destroyed". You seem to be the one making assumptions. (It's practically impossible to "destroy" a Shard anyway.)

I am saying that it is unlikely for a series that has Odium/Retribution as a main antagonist to end without a solution for the threat that Odium represents for Roshar. A solution can be found in many potential ways. So I don't see how what you're saying counter my point that it would be a bad move storytelling-wise to end a series that will presumably be longer than the entirety of Wheel of Time with the main problem unresolved.

I would argue that the main problem has already been solved. The main problem for the past five books has been how to stop the desolation and the answer has been what it always was from the beginning unite them. Retribution is the answer to the main problem of front half. I don’t see back half on doing that solution solving maybe than more negative aspects of it perhaps. But I don’t think the shard at least is going anywhere. It might change vessels or the current vessel might have a change of heart. (given what we know about era 4 Roshar I doubt both of these option options but they’re possible) 

 

Edited January 28, 2025 by bmcclure7

[Elegy he/him]

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

I would argue that the main problem has already been solved. The main problem for the past five books has been how to stop the desolation and the answer has been what it always was from the beginning unite them. Retribution is the answer to the main problem of front half. I don’t see back half on doing that solution solving maybe than more negative aspects of it perhaps. But I don’t think the shard at least is going anywhere. It might change vessels or the current vessel might have a change of heart. (given what we know about era 4 Roshar I doubt both of these option options but they’re possible) 

 

But Retribution must change fundamentally for the story to have a satisfying arc - it's a dangerous combination that represents something that has been portrayed as extremely negative and destructive throughout the series.

There's a bunch of ways this could change. It can be splintered, or integrated, or possibly redefined with another, less malevolent Intent, or something else that we don't even know is possible. But having book 10 end in a way that is less resolved than book 5 seems like a bad storytelling choice, which to me is an argument agaist Sanderson going down that route.

So yeah, while the powers of the Shards Honor and Odium will very likely still be part of the Cosmere story past Stormlight 10, Retribution itself is very unlikely to exist beyond Stormlight in the shape and form as it is now.

Of course, these are indeed assumptions. But you are asking questions about books that will be written in 25 years, so all answers you get will be assumptions.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

10 hours ago, Elegy said:

But Retribution must change fundamentally for the story to have a satisfying arc - it's a dangerous combination that represents something that has been portrayed as extremely negative and destructive throughout the series.

Retribution has existed only for an extremely short part of SA 1 - 5. Retribution represents both sides.

[MagicMaggot]

I find it unlikely that a series called "Stormlight Archive" won't have Stormlight in the back half, and I doubt we're only talking about splitting combination lights here. That alone suggests something changing with Retribution.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

1 hour ago, MagicMaggot said:

I find it unlikely that a series called "Stormlight Archive" won't have Stormlight in the back half, and I doubt we're only talking about splitting combination lights here. That alone suggests something changing with Retribution.

By the time SA#6 will come, Brandon will have layed the groundwork for the space age. Hence it seems unlikely that he'll do a regression into a purely Rosharan setting. I'd say that the back half of the Stormlight Archive will be about Roshar catching up to the rest of the Cosmere in terms of technology and Roshar coming to terms with the reemergence of the Singers.

[MagicMaggot]

10 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Hence it seems unlikely that he'll do a regression into a purely Rosharan setting.

Probably. I'm not sure how that relates to what I said about Retribution in the Stormlight(!) Archive, though? 

Independent from that, I'm also not sure how close Mistborn era 3 will actually get us towards space age. It's a long way from 80's tech to interplanetary travel, as long as Sanderson wants to make it. Which is why a cyberpunk era 4 (which would move space age to era 5) is still in the cards. More than enough for Roshar to play catch-up to. 

[CtrlAltDepressed]

Might want to remove any spoilers from the title....

[+Oltux72 he/him]

4 hours ago, MagicMaggot said:

Probably. I'm not sure how that relates to what I said about Retribution in the Stormlight(!) Archive, though?

1. Retribution is now the Rosharan Shard.
2. Acting against Retribution would mean restartung the war against the Singers

4 hours ago, MagicMaggot said:

It's a long way from 80's tech to interplanetary travel, as long as Sanderson wants to make it.

No. It is not. In terms of technology access to the CR means that they are already there. A South Scadrian airship is good enough to go to another solar system.

[bmcclure7]

7 hours ago, MagicMaggot said:

I find it unlikely that a series called "Stormlight Archive" won't have Stormlight in the back half, and I doubt we're only talking about splitting combination lights here. That alone suggests something changing with Retribution.

Technically, speaking war light could be described as storm lights since it also comes from a storm 

 

[MagicMaggot]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

In terms of technology access to the CR means that they are already there. A South Scadrian airship is good enough to go to another solar system.

...I thought when we were talking about the space age we were talking about rockets travelling space. Like in Tess, and other stories far along the timeline. Or like Kelsier seemed to allude to in TLM, since he specifically rejected CR travel as a viable long-term plan.

Spoiler

“There are potential allies out there,” Kelsier said. “Moonlight’s world, perhaps. Or the land of the aethers. Hell, maybe even Mythos. We need a way to reach them.”
“Shadesmar—”
“Is unreliable,” Kelsier said. “I know you’re barely able to get the kandra out into the wider cosmere; it’s untenable for large-scale travel. Besides, crossing it anymore is like walking into the hands of various gods who absolutely want us dead. There’s got to be a better way.”
“What are you proposing?” Sazed asked.
“Lead us into a new technological age"

So I think we might have been talking about different things here.

59 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Technically, speaking war light could be described as storm lights since it also comes from a storm 

Yeah, and I just don't believe that the title of the series will come down to "technically kind of applicable". 

Edited January 29, 2025 by MagicMaggot