Why Doesn't El Want a Title?

[Human Spawn 1123581321]

El specifically refuses being given titles. This could easily be read as him rejecting the egotistical culture of the Fused, I think that's likely what it is. However, I wonder. Moelach's prophecies and the Sleepless's prophecies both rarely use people's names, referring to them by esoteric descriptions. What if rejecting titles makes it harder to generate prophecies about him?

[LewsTherinTelescope]

I've moved this to the Wind and Truth spoiler board since it mentions Book Five stuff.

[CMac716]

Roshar seems to embody the idea of the zeitgeist. The more people believe a thing the more it becomes a reality. Especially if that thing is a mass of investiture rather than a physical realm being. The spren constantly say they're affected by perception. A title allows people to easily focus their perception towards that individual and influence who they are.

[Returned he/him]

We don't have much insight into his thinking so this is only a guess, but I think that it leans even more into the egotistical Fused culture. The Fused are already very competent and immortal, so even the least distinctive would have trouble avoiding titles and legendary deeds over their millennia of existence. The titles may differ from one person to another, but everyone has at least a couple.

Everyone except for one: El, the individual so consequential and so dangerous that he doesn't need a title to announce himself, the one so centrally important that there could be no confusion about whom you mean when you say his name by itself. His name alone announces him and no deed or event could overshadow his identity as himself.

Your question does make me wonder if he has a deeper reason, especially if there might be a practical one (does it help preserve or strengthen his cognitive/spiritual identity in some way?). But that would raise another question about why no other Fused have pursued those benefits. I'm also curious if the lack of titles is related to whatever thing El did/thing that happened to El that cut him off from the rhythms.

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

On 1/24/2025 at 6:02 PM, Human Spawn 1123581321 said:

El specifically refuses being given titles. This could easily be read as him rejecting the egotistical culture of the Fused, I think that's likely what it is. However, I wonder. Moelach's prophecies and the Sleepless's prophecies both rarely use people's names, referring to them by esoteric descriptions. What if rejecting titles makes it harder to generate prophecies about him?

 

On 1/25/2025 at 10:48 AM, CMac716 said:

Roshar seems to embody the idea of the zeitgeist. The more people believe a thing the more it becomes a reality. Especially if that thing is a mass of investiture rather than a physical realm being. The spren constantly say they're affected by perception. A title allows people to easily focus their perception towards that individual and influence who they are.

He also melds aluminum as armor all over his body, presumably to block a shardblade, but possibly to prevent something like what you both describe. He also had a title once, Vyre (He who quiets), which I assume is someone who kills lots of people..but my Sandersense tells me there's more to it than that. His title was taken initially, and now he doesn't want one back. And yeah, I'd say he's discovered one or more things by not having a title, and rejecting a new one.

Edited January 30, 2025 by JohnnyKaizen

[RefusesToElaborate]

As @JohnnyKaizen El was denied a title and adding to that, the Rhythms. Now this is based on my idea of how to write a character, so keep in mind these are presumptions and based on nothing but how I would write it.

Elodi was seemingly a voice for peace with humans in the time before Odium invested Roshar.

Seemingly during the desolations, peace broke down and Elodi gained the title He Who Quiets.

Also seemingly during the desolations Elodi is stripped of Rhythms.

To summarize at several unknown points Elodi becomes Vyre, He Who Quiets. And then Vyre becomes El.

So he is denied both his assumed name and his birth name, simply being El.

And it is known that Elodi befriended Jezrien, and still holds a great amount of respect for him. Enough, even, to finalise his death.

You will also note that both characters to hold the title of Vyre do not hear the Rhythms and lose their birth name. This is something that I am not entirely comfortable saying is coincidental. Again, pure vibes, but I feel Sanderson did this on purpose.

I believe that at some point after becoming the fused Vyre, El did something. Perhaps even he is involved with the Listeners defecting from Odium and going to live in the Shattered Plains, or perhaps he was one of Ba Ado Mishrams, and the reason he accepts his deafening to the Rhythms and loss of title is because he lost them doing what he believed was right. It's possible that he made a moral judgement call and was punished for it, and bore his punishment with dignity.

That's just my first idea, the second:

He does want rulership of humans, as he said. And seems to hold an admiration of the species. Perhaps he also rejects titles that are so important to other Fused and the Rhythms because he wants to feel a closer kinship with mankind.

I often wonder about Els relationship with other Fused. I wish he had a canon interaction with Raboniel. The interaction with The Pursuer I don't take as representing all Fused because Lezian seems to be a bit single minded to take his opinion as broad, and Leshwis interactions with him are coated by the fear of Odium.

Of all characters in Stormlight, as of the current state of canon, El is the biggest mystery to me. And I dearly need a dose of him in Stormlight 6.

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

12 hours ago, RefusesToElaborate said:

and the reason he accepts his deafening to the Rhythms and loss of title is because he lost them doing what he believed was right. It's possible that he made a moral judgement call and was punished for it, and bore his punishment with dignity.

There is that, but the way you phrased that makes me think about El, the cunning scientist, philosopher, and artist. I wonder how much autonomy El has, compared to other Fused, never hearing the rhythms of Odium? He clearly holds a place of respect amongst the Fused. He isn't a pariah. We've also seen how Leshwi took millennia to forge a place just low enough to do what she wants, while just high enough to not be denied. Did she learn that from El's example in some part? El seems to have perfected what Leshwi was trying to do..he also doesn't seem to hold a grudge with Leshwi specifically.

None of that necessarily means anything, but it might.

12 hours ago, RefusesToElaborate said:

He does want rulership of humans, as he said. And seems to hold an admiration of the species. Perhaps he also rejects titles that are so important to other Fused and the Rhythms because he wants to feel a closer kinship with mankind.

This feels like a "yes and" to me. Yes he does want to direct humans, and he seems to feel that the Fused went wrong somewhere, even that Odium went wrong. If he didn't feel that way, he wouldn't have been so excited to find out that Odium had a new vessel..and a human one at that (even though Rayse was human, he just lied about it, and maybe El was aware?).