A theory about the Ire

[Ripheus23]

The only major W&T connect-up has to do with the account of Stormseat's ruin.

So, it seems from WoBs and what that Rayse took advantage of something going on between Aona and Skai, to accomplish his goal on Sel, possibly with the "help" of Autonomy. Let's say that the non-hierarchic mindset of Devotion conflicted with Dominion-as-pro-hierarchy, but also with Autonomy vs. the concept of Iso-nomy, which is a similar political concept but with a special emphasis on public equality instead of private authority over oneself.

What I would mean then is: the Cognitive side of Selish politics was a major arena of the conflict. We've seen the Ire there in Shadesmar, Sanderson says the only major cosmere faction he wants to still introduce has to do with Threnody (and might be the Night Brigade???), so let's say that the Ire, or their progenitors at least, already had a good-sized political system set up in the Cognitive Realm of Sel, and were divided into factions, say two or three, with two being aligned strongly with either specifically of the local Shards and the third aiming for balance or neutrality. Somehow, the process of this ancient Selish Shadesmar war is what got Aona and Skai killed, why the Ire are so surpassingly knowledgeable (they have scientific records of processes that resulted in the deaths of two Shards and their translocation to Shadesmar as the Dor), etc.

More particularly, what if the city of Elantris was itself created in a way mystically comparable to what happened to Stormseat? Because Sanderson has said, contrariwise:

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scm288 (paraphrased)

So I guess my follow-up question is: is Elantris a Dawncity?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Hmm. I could see where your reasoning could come to that conclusion, but no. No, that's not it. But your earlier extrapolations are in the right direction.

Words of Radiance release party (March 3, 2014)

So instead, what I would mean is that maintaining a city like Elantris was a Physical manifestation of the very process that dragged the corpses of the Selish Shards into Shadesmar; and then that the endurance of Elantris inversely echoes the desolation of Stormseat by the conflict of Shardic tones. Sanderson also says:

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Evilsmiley

Was Elantris built before the Shards were [Splintered] on Sel or not?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, in my outline right now Elantris existed before Odium did his dirty work on Elantris.

It's unlikely to change, but I do have to point out this isn't strictly canon yet, and likely won't be until I write the Elantris sequels.

General Reddit 2021 (Feb. 22, 2021)

So the thinking would have to be more like, "Something about the Ire, about the place in Shadesmar that corresponds to Elantris, etc. was a conduit for the later process." Like if Elantris itself descended into factional conflict, along Aona-vs.-Skai lines, as a spillover from, or itself spilling over into, the hypothetical Shadesmar war there.

Kind of like an inverted trope of Shadar Logoth from The Wheel of Time, I guess.

[Treamayne]

Just for consideration - does your theory take into account that the planet is larger than Cosmer STandard and has (at least) three separate continents with three mutually near-exclusive Empires in residence?

I'm not saying you are wrong or off-base, but it seems narrow to put the fate of a whole planet and two Shards on one city in one small country of such a large world when we don;t have enough information about the rest of the geography to rule out 95% of the planet and how they impact these events.

Seems more likely that Odium used on Ashyn the tricks he developed elsewhere (possibly Sel) and drove multiple countries (aligned to Dominino) to war with other countries (aligned to Devotion) to get the shards to also conflist with each other over their preferred worshippers. I don't discount Elantris' involvement, but I doubt the entire aspect was all this one location and people.

Just grist for the discussion mill. . .

[Ripheus23]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Just for consideration - does your theory take into account that the planet is larger than Cosmer STandard and has (at least) three separate continents with three mutually near-exclusive Empires in residence?

I'm not saying you are wrong or off-base, but it seems narrow to put the fate of a whole planet and two Shards on one city in one small country of such a large world when we don;t have enough information about the rest of the geography to rule out 95% of the planet and how they impact these events.

Seems more likely that Odium used on Ashyn the tricks he developed elsewhere (possibly Sel) and drove multiple countries (aligned to Dominino) to war with other countries (aligned to Devotion) to get the shards to also conflist with each other over their preferred worshippers. I don't discount Elantris' involvement, but I doubt the entire aspect was all this one location and people.

Just grist for the discussion mill. . .

I'd have to work out a stronger theory about how Sel's Cognitive Realm was back then. Right now I have a weak image of just, "Something sorta like the spren having cities in Rosharan Shadesmar," and then I would want to consider if there were seons and skaze, or precursors to those, at that time, with different spheres of political influence, different relationships with the Ire and possible other groups, etc.

I also think that the Moon Scepter could function as a "glyph" for Sel's whole moon, with some AonDor-ish applications, and I loved the talk years back about possible "Shardmoons," so it'd be interesting to know how Sel's moon was before the Dor, over on the Cognitive side. Maybe there's a whole lunar civilization, or something like in FF8, going on there.

[Treamayne]

10 minutes ago, Ripheus23 said:

I also think that the Moon Scepter could function as a "glyph" for Sel's whole moon, with some AonDor-ish applications,

We know what the Moon Scepter does (if not how). WoB:

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ParadoxicalZen

How exactly is the Moon Scepter linked to the Dor?

Brandon Sanderson

The Moon Scepter is-- I suppose I can canonize this, now. Okay you're getting one out of me. So the big thing about the Moon Scepter that it was-- It is a Rosetta stone for the [Selish] magics. Meaning it translates them from one to another, and what the different symbols mean, does that make sense.

Shadows of Self London UK signing (Oct. 19, 2015)

 

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Aurimus_

And lastly, a cosmere point of contention. You've said before the Moon Scepter works as a Rosetta stone? Is this literal, as in translating one Aon to it's MaiPon counterpart, or more metaphorical, IE allowing use of a Selish magic outside of its country?

Brandon Sanderson

The Moon Scepter does not "unlock" regional use of Selish magic, but those who wanted it believed it was a vital step in figuring this out. It's more the first, but has implications for the second.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 26, 2018)

 

 

Are you trying to reason-out how Aona and Skai were Splintered? Or just the timeline in relation to the creation of Elantris and the first Elantrians before the Arelenes emmigrated to what is now called Arelon?

[Ripheus23]

2 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

We know what the Moon Scepter does (if not how). WoB:

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Are you trying to reason-out how Aona and Skai were Splintered? Or just the timeline in relation to the creation of Elantris and the first Elantrians before the Arelenes emmigrated to what is now called Arelon?

I'm mainly wondering how Sel is supposed to be the "most Realmatically aware" world or whatever. I'm guessing this has much, maybe even mostly, to do with the Ire and their knowledge, plus at least inside its walls, Elantris' magic system seems pretty/potentially OP. So the Ire might somehow know more about Realmatics than most in Silverlight, in the spren cities of Shadesmar, among the Nalthis Returned, and so on and on. This interests me: what did they see, long ago, what did they participate in, that enlightened them so dramatically?

[TheoreticalMagic]

10 minutes ago, Ripheus23 said:

I'm mainly wondering how Sel is supposed to be the "most Realmatically aware" world or whatever. I'm guessing this has much, maybe even mostly, to do with the Ire and their knowledge, plus at least inside its walls, Elantris' magic system seems pretty/potentially OP. So the Ire might somehow know more about Realmatics than most in Silverlight, in the spren cities of Shadesmar, among the Nalthis Returned, and so on and on. This interests me: what did they see, long ago, what did they participate in, that enlightened them so dramatically?

I have a half-baked theory that its named Elantris as in Aon Ela ("center") because its the centerpoint of the galaxy the Shards/cosmere are located in, and that's why Aona and Skai both gravitated there. Aona wanted to use the centerpoint of the galaxy as a bastion of learning, the perfect launchpoint for spreading art, beauty and education throughout the cosmere, while Skai saw it as the ideal stronghold from which to bring the rest of the cosmere under her dominion.

Realmatically speaking, being positioned at the center of the galaxy could have some significant Cognitive Realm implications, allowing for the early Selish to get a leg up on everyone else in terms of understanding their galaxy.

(It also could account for Elantrians seemingly finding a way to use Aon Dor on other planets by the space age.....this could be due to a global Cognitive shift from identifying as citizens of a country with a national shared identity, to citizens of a planet with a global shared identity and finally to citizens of a galaxy with a galactic shared identity as one planet partaking in a larger civilization. Thus allowing Elantrians to shift their perception of their position relative to the rest of their planet to being more concerned with their position relative to the rest of the cosmere....and by Cognitively viewing Elantris as the centerpoint of the galaxy, they can then access its magic from anywhere within the cosmere with the right coding/equations.)

Also, there's still so much we don't know about the timeline of civilizations on Sel, but given how long ago Aona and Skai were killed....although we know they weren't as actively involved in Selish civilizations/cultures pre-death as other Shards with other worlds' civilizations....we're talking SO long ago that if they had ANY hand in setting up Elantris, the Ire have had waaaaay longer to learn about the cosmere than just about any of the other major players. Alternatively, the fact that Elantrian magic is so OP could be indicative of Aona just making so much more of Devotion's Investiture accessible on Sel compared to how much most Shards invest in their magic systems....which might mean Elantrians/the Ire just had more juice to power their experiments and attempts at understanding the cosmere.

[alder24]

16 hours ago, Ripheus23 said:

I would want to consider if there were seons and skaze, or precursors to those, at that time

There were none. Seons and Skaze were created during the Splintering of D&D.

Spoiler

little wilson

Are Ruin and Preservation separate in Sazed or are they fully combined together like can he give one of them, or does he have to give both.

Brandon Sanderson

They are not fully combined. I mean that's not the way this works. He could pull off a piece of one even and make-- stuff like that. That's totally, totally viable. I mean it's basically what happened with the spren. The spren existed before even Honor was destroyed and things like that.

little wilson

So, did the-- my gosh, on Sel-- the Aons-- not the Aons-- the seons did they exist before the Splintering?

Brandon Sanderson

They did not. That's a good question. But they are not the majority of the power. They're just little pieces, they are like the sparks when something gets destroyed. The sparks are not the majority but they are the sparks that were thrown off, if that makes sense?

Holiday signing (Dec. 12, 2015)