Feruchemy origin?

[BubblesTheCat]

Do we know wear feruchemy comes from? Allomancy comes from Preservation through Lerasium and is end-positive. Hemalurgy is from Ruin and is end-negative. So would Feruchemy, being end neutral, be a mix of Ruin and Preservation and come from Harmonium? So if you found a way to burn Harmonium (without painting the walls with your insides), would you become a full Feruchemist? There are a couple problems with this though:

1. There is no known way to ingest Harmonium without going 'boom'.

2. Feruchemists predate harmony and even the Lord Ruler.

I have some possible explanations for this but have no idea.

1. Maybe the Terris people found a way to burn Harmonium without dieing? Could they drink a bunch of oil with it to prevent it from getting wet? Maybe the metal just needs to be in your stomach so you could put it in a capsule? I don't think metals have to be touching your stomach to burn them or eating food before consuming metals would lessen your ability to burn metal. Or maybe it just has to be in your stomach to burn but can't be inside something.

2. Maybe some Harmonium was made when Ruin and Preservation worked together to create the world. But the Terris people ran out of Harmonium when Preservation betrayed Ruin and they stopped working together.

Also, do we know if there were Ferings pre-Catacenre? I always  assumed they were all full Feruchemists but maybe 'The Keepers' were the Feruchemy equivalent of Mistborn?

Side note too, is 'snapping' gone is era2? And can mistborn happen without genetics? Because the Malwish have some somehow and Alendi was a seeker.

[Aeoryi she/her]

I think Feruchemy was an aftereffect of the Ruin + Preservation double blend that was needed to make humanity, or at least that's how I interpreted it. /Shrug.

[Treamayne]

Welcome to the Shard. Your Intro post does not state what you have or have not read (whichever list is shorter), so please let us know that list so we can avoid spoilers, as necessary. Also, please consider checking out the Sharder FAQ for some useful forum info.

57 minutes ago, BubblesTheCat said:

Do we know wear feruchemy comes from? Allomancy comes from Preservation through Lerasium and is end-positive. Hemalurgy is from Ruin and is end-negative. So would Feruchemy, being end neutral, be a mix of Ruin and Preservation and come from Harmonium?

We have no indications that Harmonium (which didn't exist, and was not thought possible when Scadrial was created) would have anything to do with Feruchemy's origins (and you would likely have to be an Allomancer to burn it anyway). What we do know is (WoB - Stormlight reference Spoilers):

Spoiler

asmodeus

You've said before that a lot of the magics we see across the cosmere come from an interaction of Shards and their Investiture with the planets they Invest in. What does this mean practically? If Scadrial explodes tomorrow, will Hemalurgy stop working across the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Hemalurgy wouldn't stop working, most likely, but it could. There are ways that you could make it stop working. I kind of mean that the Shards are an innate part of physics in the cosmere, and the magics that arise are an innate part of physics because of that. Like atium seeped out into the Pits of Hathsin, in the same way, these magics are just gonna leak out, and different places are going to affect them. You'll see Lightweaving happening in different places, and the way the Shard is interacting with the local... The way the Shard is is going to affect how Lightweaving is administrated in the various magics, but it's still gonna be there. Hemalurgy is kind of a similar thing to that. You will see Midnight Essence, you will see some of these recurring ideas popping up, and these are like natural parts of the physics, but they're influenced by the Shards on the local planets.

I don't know if that answer, that's gonna be a really fun one for them to transcribe into the Q&A thing, because I go around in circles on that question a ton. Put this part in when you do it.

Footnote: It was a really fun one.
YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

So, a Manifestation of Investiture (MoI) is not created by a Shard; rather it arises naturally based on Realmatic Principals and how the Shard(s)' Intent interacts with the Planet and the People. Though a Shard can directly influence it (SA Spoilers).  It is likely (not confirmed) that Scadrial's Metallic Arts are based on Metal because of the way that Ruin and Preservation created the planet, infusing their essence into everything - and because Investiture in a Solid Matter form is inherently metallic this influenced everything on Scadrial (including MoIs).

So, Feruchemy likely arose naturally based on how Scadrial was created by both Preservation and Ruin (because Feruchemy is both Preservation and Ruin, which is why it is end-neutral). What we do not know is how that became condensed into the Terris Bloodlines, though it is implied that Preservation interferred there when he passed on the first Legends of the Hero of Ages (and began his Thanatos Gambit to prevent Ruin from destroying the planet).

Hope that helps.

Edited January 18, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[alder24]

11 hours ago, BubblesTheCat said:

Do we know wear feruchemy comes from? Allomancy comes from Preservation through Lerasium and is end-positive. Hemalurgy is from Ruin and is end-negative. So would Feruchemy, being end neutral, be a mix of Ruin and Preservation and come from Harmonium? So if you found a way to burn Harmonium (without painting the walls with your insides), would you become a full Feruchemist? There are a couple problems with this though:

1. There is no known way to ingest Harmonium without going 'boom'.

2. Feruchemists predate harmony and even the Lord Ruler.

I have some possible explanations for this but have no idea.

1. Maybe the Terris people found a way to burn Harmonium without dieing? Could they drink a bunch of oil with it to prevent it from getting wet? Maybe the metal just needs to be in your stomach so you could put it in a capsule? I don't think metals have to be touching your stomach to burn them or eating food before consuming metals would lessen your ability to burn metal. Or maybe it just has to be in your stomach to burn but can't be inside something.

2. Maybe some Harmonium was made when Ruin and Preservation worked together to create the world. But the Terris people ran out of Harmonium when Preservation betrayed Ruin and they stopped working together.

Also, do we know if there were Ferings pre-Catacenre? I always  assumed they were all full Feruchemists but maybe 'The Keepers' were the Feruchemy equivalent of Mistborn?

Side note too, is 'snapping' gone is era2? And can mistborn happen without genetics? Because the Malwish have some somehow and Alendi was a seeker.

Harmonium is not an alloy of Atium and Lerasium and it hadn't existed before Sazed Ascended to Ruin and Preservation and became Harmony. It's pretty much impossible for Harmonium to be responsible for the first Feruchemist - it may be able to make them now, but it couldn't in the past. Also the properties of an god metal depend on the Vessel who holds the Shard and so I think it's unlikely that Leras and Ati would be able to create the same Harmonium Sazed can now.

However, the Scadrian god metals can be used to create a Feruchemist. We don't know which ones or how to use them to become a Feruchemist, but it's possible. I suspect Atium-Lerasium alloy might be able to bestow Feruchemy on the person who burns it. 

It's also possible to use the power of the Well of Ascension to change your Spirit Web and make yourself into a Feruchemist. Rashek was able to change his soul and become an Allomancer with the power of the Well, becoming an Feruchemist shouldn't be much different. Sazed was also able to make Spook into a full Mistborn and this suggests both Shards should be able to grant Feruchemy directly to a person of their choosing (that would be possible before they started to oppose each other).

Ferrings did exist pre-Catacendre, they were extremely rare. Ferrings happened because of Allomantic genes reacting and breaking apart Feruchemical genes. 

Snapping isn't gone in Era 2, or rather Sazed makes sure that violent Snapping isn't needed anymore. He changed it.

Mistborn can theoretically happen without genetics - Lerasium. You can also use spikes to steal every Allomantic power to yourself, which would make you a Mistborn. Also, the Bands of Mourning make you into one as well, so there are tools that can make you into a permanent or temporary Mistborn. 

Malwish didn't have any Mistborn, they have discovered Mistings only recently after Kelsier saved them. Alendi was a Seeker but that was because he was Snapped by the Mists, just like Demoux was. Back then Allomancy didn't exist in the population (it started with Rashek giving Lerasium to kings), but when the Well became full every 1024 years, the Mists started to Snap people as a response to the possibility of Ruin getting free, which created weak Mistings. However, nobody was aware of Allomancy during Alendi's times so even though there were weak Mistings, they didn't know about those powers and what could be done with them. Rashek changed this by creating strong Lerasium Mistborns, whose strong genes became the foundation for the whole lineage of Allomancers during the Final Empire. 

BoM ch 21:

Quote

Marasi nodded. “And he taught you this? The Sovereign?”
“Sure did. Saved us, bless him. Taught us that the Metalborn were pieces of God, each one of them, though we didn’t have any of those at first."

WoBs:

Spoiler

Questioner

If I were to alloy atium and lerasium, would I get harmonium? Or is harmonium different after the Shards combined?

Brandon Sanderson

It's different after the Shards combined.

Questioner

If I was to take harmonium and separate it out through distillation, would I get lerasium and atium or something that functions similarly?

Brandon Sanderson

No, you would-- It actually has become a different--

Questioner

Can't be split?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. I mean, you could find a way, but you're not going to get it through normal, mechanical means.

Skyward Houston signing (Nov. 19, 2018)

 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

If Kelsier created a metal while holding Preservation that it would have acted the same as lerasium, though over time the properties of it might shift.

Footnote: Unspecified question by Ted Herman
Arcanum Unbounded Hoboken signing (Dec. 3, 2016)

 

Spoiler

Yoitsthew

Would a lerasium/atium alloy create a Feruchemist, rather than an atium misting?? What with the way that it’s an alloy of god metals, and the way that lerasium can be used to acquire other magics? As far as I know there is no lerasium left currently, so this one is also just for my curiosity!!

Brandon Sanderson

You can use the god metals from Scadrial to make a Feruchemist, but I have to RAFO the actual means.

General Reddit 2020 (Sept. 30, 2020)

 

Spoiler

Questioner (paraphrased)

What will an Atium-Lerasium Alloy do ?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Ah, I've been asked this before. There are a number of theories, but nobody's really sure, since there haven't really been any opportunities to alloy lerasium with atium. You can choose which one to believe. Most require an understanding of realmatic theory to comprehend, which you need to be a Shard or Splinter to even begin to understand.What Lerasium is, is essentially a hack for something like your spiritual DNA. It rewrites what your spiritual self is capable of. So, combined with atium, which allows you a glimpse into the vision of everything - past, present, future - the theories say it could do one of two things. It could either create a substance so volatile that it would have world-ending repercussions, or rewrite your "spiritual DNA" (his phrase, not mine) with atium's power. Is that a vague enough answer?

TWG Posts (March 23, 2010)

 

Spoiler

Chris King

Did the Lord Ruler use lerasium to gain his super Allomantic abilities or did he grant that to himself with the Well's power? If he used the bead, does he count as one of the nine original Allomancers that Sazed mentions?

Brandon Sanderson

Excellent question. He did not use the bead. He-- In all of this he granted himself basically, he rebuilt himself to be extremely powerful and he did not use one of the beads.

Chris King interview (Sept. 24, 2013)

 

Spoiler

Chaos (paraphrased)

Since the dawn of Scadrial, why was Feruchemy isolated in a single distinct population in the world, namely the Terrismen? Allomancy, while rare within the population of Scadrial, at least was not isolated to one population, it was spread evenly, it seems. What is special about the Terrismen that only they get the power of Feruchemy? Does it have something to do with the previous Ascensions before Rashek, with the guardian keeping the power for a time?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It's all in the spiritual DNA, which is passed on like normal DNA. However, they are a separate people. They've kept themselves isolated, similar to the Jews in our world. When I asked he said there have been some Feruchemical-mistings [Ferrings] in the past, but they are very rare.

Ancient 17S Q&A (May 1, 2010)

 

Spoiler

Travyl (paraphrased)

Why do the Twinborn in Alloy of Law have only one Feruchemical power, when all previous Feruchemists, in spite of breeding programs, could use all the metals? 

WetlanderNW (paraphrased)

Or were Ferrings always part of the system and we just didn't meet them in Mistborn?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The Ferrings are a new development since Mistborn, as the Feruchemists have been interbreeding with the Allomancers. Basically, the Allomancy genes interfere with the Feruchemy genes, breaking it down and creating the limitations we see in Alloy of Law.

Footnote: Brandon's response was very enthusiastic. He noted how perceptive the question was, and obviously enjoyed the discussion. The reporter has expressed their regret at lack of an audio recording to share his enthusiasm.
Alloy of Law Seattle Signing (Nov. 11, 2011)

 

Spoiler

Fyodor32768

In Alloy of Law, are people still Snapping?

Brandon Sanderson

Sazed chose to alter the way Snapping works. It bothered him. It does happen, but differently.

General Twitter 2011 (Nov. 14, 2011)

 

Spoiler

KChan

How does Snapping work after Sazed changed it? If you don't want to reveal it all right now, are there any hints you can give us?

Brandon Sanderson

He couldn't get rid of this entirely. I don't want to spoil things, but Snapping was built into Allomancy primarily because of larger-scale magical issues. This is getting deep into the issue, but it has to do with a person's spiritual makeup and a 'wounded' spirit being easier to fill with something else, kind of like a cut would let something into the bloodstream. Sazed made this threshold on Scadrial much easier to obtain.

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 25, 2012)

 

Spoiler

Comatose

So here's my last question. If there ARE people on the other side of the world, did Vin kill them all by placing the sun on their side, or do they have they're own Ruin/Preservation battle going on over there as well? Do they also have allomancy feruchemy and hemalurgy?

Brandon Sanderson

No, they're not dead. Yes, Rashek was aware of them. In fact, he placed them there as a reserve. I knew he wanted a 'control' group of people in case his changes to genetics ended with the race being in serious trouble. All I'll say is that he found a way other than changing them genetically to help them survive in the world he created. And since they were created by Ruin and Preservation, they have the seeds of the Three Metallic Arts in them—though without anyone among them having burned Lerasium, Allomancers would have been very rare in their population and full Mistborn unheard of.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Also, as a note, Alendi was an Allomancer, as the epigraph notes here. He had to be—he heard the pulsing at the Well of Ascension when nobody else could. "Ah," you might say, "but I thought that you said Allomancy didn't exist before those beads." That isn't 100% true. The legends say that Allomancy came with the Deepness. Alendi was one of the very first Allomancers, and he gained his powers as the mists began to cover the world.

That's important.

Because, of course, he was Snapped by the mists, like is happening to people in this book.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (Feb. 23, 2010)

 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Seventy

The Reason for the Mistsickness

So, it finally comes out. I wonder at this numbers plot, as I think many readers will glaze over it and ignore it. I think others will read into it and figure out what it means very quickly, then feel that the reveal here isn't much of a revelation. Hopefully I'll get a majority in the middle who read the clues, don't know what they mean, but are happily surprised when it comes together. That's a difficult line to walk sometimes.

What is going on here is that the mists are awakening the Allomantic potential inside of people. It's very rough on a person for that to come out, and can cause death. Preservation set this all up before he gave his consciousness to imprison Ruin, so it's not a perfect system. It's like a machine left behind by its creator. The catalyst is the return of the power to the Well of Ascension. As soon as that power becomes full, it sets the mists to begin Snapping those who have the potential for Allomancy buried within them.

Many of these people won't be very strong Allomancers. Their abilities were buried too deeply to have come out without the mists' intervention. Others will have a more typical level of power; they might have Snapped earlier, had they gone through enough anguish to bring the power out.

My idea on this is that Allomantic potential is a little like a supersaturated solution. You can suspend a great deal of something like sugar in a liquid when it is hot, then cool it down and the sugar remains suspended. Drop one bit of sugar in there as a catalyst, however, and the rest will fall out as a precipitate.

Allomancy is the same. It's in there, but it takes a reaction—in this case, physical anguish—to trigger it and bring it out. That's because the Allomantic power comes from the extra bit of Preservation inside of humans, that same extra bit that gives us free will. This bit is trapped between the opposing forces of Preservation and Ruin, and to come out and allow it the power to access metals and draw forth energy, it needs to fight its way through the piece of Ruin that is also there inside.

As has been established, Ruin's control over creatures—and, indeed, an Allomancer's control over them—grows weaker when that creature is going through some extreme emotions. (Like the koloss blood frenzy.) This has to do with the relationship between the Cognitive Realm, the Physical Realm, and the Spiritual Realm—of which I don't have time to speak right now.

Suffice it to say that there are people who have Snapped because of intense joy or other emotions. It just doesn't happen as frequently and is more difficult to control.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (March 30, 2010)  

 

[BubblesTheCat]

Thank you guys.

[AleStaar he/him]

Resident Mistborn experts @Treamayne and @alder24 explained it perfectly.

My personal theory is that Feruchemy was always in the minds of the Shards, once they created the planet. Along with this, Feruchemical potential was always in humanity. But Preservation needed to directly intervene to bring out the Feruchemical potential specifically in the Terris people. I think he did this through the person who used the Well before Rashek, as part of his long game to defeat Ruin.