I can’t wait to learn about the 5th ideal

[christianrapper]

Man, I can’t wait to find out what happens with the 5th ideal. Every previous ideal  bestowed radiants new abilities. There is no way that Sanderson would have a radiant take the 5th oath and not reveal what happens and new powers that radiant gets. I mean everyone is waiting to find out what happens. It’s the 5th book. The next one won’t be out for almost a decade. There are at least 2 radiants who are close to the 5th oath. There is no way that Sanderson would have multiple characters swear the 5th oath and not explain it. We have two of the best fighters on the planet who are close to swearing the 5th oath. We have Jasnah who is also close. I can’t wait to see some kool battle scenes with a full radiant who has sworn all 5 oaths. Szeth is carrying Nightblood. That needs a ton of Stormlight to wield. There is no way that Sanderson would have him swear the 5th ideal and have him immediately forsake his oaths. Imagine Szeth gaining a ton of Stormlight and giving up all that stormlight knowing that he still needs to wield Nightblood. That would be highly unlikely. It’s a good thing that Sanderson would never do something like that. 

Edited January 17, 2025 by christianrapper

[Ripheus23]

I think one of the messages/lessons of W&T is that the system of gaining more and more power through oaths was so deeply flawed that surrendering such power was ultimately better than keeping it, at least in some contexts/to some extent. Sanderson wasn't trying to do a lore dump for "what if so-and-so fought such-and-such" scenarios, that arguably would've been spiritually immature of him.

Think of it like the classical theory of Jesus: having the status of God Incarnate but sacrificing so much even so. Reaching Jerusalem, proclaimed king: then just letting it go. Would that storyline have made more sense/been better had Jesus fulfilled the old vision of the Messianic prophecies and used his immense might to liquidate the Roman occupiers and their collaborators in the holy city?

[christianrapper]

1 hour ago, Ripheus23 said:

I think one of the messages/lessons of W&T is that the system of gaining more and more power through oaths was so deeply flawed that surrendering such power was ultimately better than keeping it, at least in some contexts/to some extent. Sanderson wasn't trying to do a lore dump for "what if so-and-so fought such-and-such" scenarios, that arguably would've been spiritually immature of him.

Think of it like the classical theory of Jesus: having the status of God Incarnate but sacrificing so much even so. Reaching Jerusalem, proclaimed king: then just letting it go. Would that storyline have made more sense/been better had Jesus fulfilled the old vision of the Messianic prophecies and used his immense might to liquidate the Roman occupiers and their collaborators in the holy city?

I am not about to get into real world religion. That has nothing to do with this book or my Op. 

[Ripheus23]

2 hours ago, christianrapper said:

I am not about to get into real world religion. That has nothing to do with this book or my Op. 

Sanderson's reasons for writing this story are grounded, in part, in his religious outlook. There is a whole Spiritual Realm in the cosmere, where the core presences of the Vessels of the Shards exist. So which is more Spiritually valuable, and therefore expressive of magic's nature in the cosmere? (A) having characters "level up" and get "cool new abilities" as they "unlock achievements," or (B) having characters embody Sanderson's narrative laws of magic, for example his law about when having too powerful a magic system means that you should make having the magic itself into the problem of the story?

In The Hero of Ages, for example,

Spoiler

it is only Elend's victory that is "clever," a cunning use of the local magic system. Vin's is emotional through and through, from her Ascension in the storm of the mists to her vaporization of Ruin; Sazed's has the man literally thinking, verbatim, technical elements of LDS conversion preaching, "There was some truth in all the religions." 

Neither Dalinar nor Kaladin nor Szeth nor anyone else had need of swearing their fifth vow in the standard sequence per their Radiant Order, to accomplish anything other than the Spiritual things they accomplished thereby, even in rejecting the promise of their vows in the selfsame deed. In fact, given the role of the Spiritual Realm in the logic of all the magic systems in the cosmere, it follows that the process of rising in power, from one vow to another, would be mirrored in an ascent from outward Physical power, through inner Cognitive power, up into the sphere of Spiritual Light par excellence. You want to know what abilities Kaladin, Szeth, and Dalinar got by reaching their ultimate ideals? The chance to do the unique acts of power that they engaged in, from helping generate a new di-Shard to overcoming the darkness of the Heralds. Unrepeatable moments of glory and transcendence, not mere "moves in a clever game."

EDIT: in the case of e.g. Szeth, what opportunity did swearing his fifth vow give him? Well, it gave him a great influx of sheer power. Probably more power than would be compacted otherwise into a singular maneuver or even set of maneuvers. His "skill-set portfolio" would not be determinately extended, but the sheet of paper would read "and he suddenly gained the ability to do so many mighty things that it would be pointless to confine the list of them to a few scant options."

However, then, and especially from the narrative angle, the sensible thing was to renounce his oaths, because that was a way to exert control over his enormous new power, to signature effect. This is why the story has Adolin dwell on the philosophical difference between promises and oaths, why Honor thinks that oaths involve abstract mathematical order somehow/are expressions of this somehow, etc. Szeth "becomes" his own law: then he turns the power of this law upon itself, tests itself against itself, like a logician trying to figure out, "This sentence is false."

Edited January 17, 2025 by Ripheus23

[christianrapper]

35 minutes ago, Ripheus23 said:

Sanderson's reasons for writing this story are grounded, in part, in his religious outlook. There is a whole Spiritual Realm in the cosmere, where the core presences of the Vessels of the Shards exist. So which is more Spiritually valuable, and therefore expressive of magic's nature in the cosmere? (A) having characters "level up" and get "cool new abilities" as they "unlock achievements," or (B) having characters embody Sanderson's narrative laws of magic, for example his law about when having too powerful a magic system means that you should make having the magic itself into the problem of the story?

In The Hero of Ages, for example,

  Reveal hidden contents

it is only Elend's victory that is "clever," a cunning use of the local magic system. Vin's is emotional through and through, from her Ascension in the storm of the mists to her vaporization of Ruin; Sazed's has the man literally thinking, verbatim, technical elements of LDS conversion preaching, "There was some truth in all the religions." 

Neither Dalinar nor Kaladin nor Szeth nor anyone else had need of swearing their fifth vow in the standard sequence per their Radiant Order, to accomplish anything other than the Spiritual things they accomplished thereby, even in rejecting the promise of their vows in the selfsame deed. In fact, given the role of the Spiritual Realm in the logic of all the magic systems in the cosmere, it follows that the process of rising in power, from one vow to another, would be mirrored in an ascent from outward Physical power, through inner Cognitive power, up into the sphere of Spiritual Light par excellence. You want to know what abilities Kaladin, Szeth, and Dalinar got by reaching their ultimate ideals? The chance to do the unique acts of power that they engaged in, from helping generate a new di-Shard to overcoming the darkness of the Heralds. Unrepeatable moments of glory and transcendence, not mere "moves in a clever game."

EDIT: in the case of e.g. Szeth, what opportunity did swearing his fifth vow give him? Well, it gave him a great influx of sheer power. Probably more power than would be compacted otherwise into a singular maneuver or even set of maneuvers. His "skill-set portfolio" would not be determinately extended, but the sheet of paper would read "and he suddenly gained the ability to do so many mighty things that it would be pointless to confine the list of them to a few scant options."

However, then, and especially from the narrative angle, the sensible thing was to renounce his oaths, because that was a way to exert control over his enormous new power, to signature effect. This is why the story has Adolin dwell on the philosophical difference between promises and oaths, why Honor thinks that oaths involve abstract mathematical order somehow/are expressions of this somehow, etc. Szeth "becomes" his own law: then he turns the power of this law upon itself, tests itself against itself, like a logician trying to figure out, "This sentence is false."

No, it wasn’t. The sensible thing was to keep his oaths so that he could save his family and mentors with Nightblood.  I am not doing mental gymnastics to make that decision make sense. Szeth knew that he couldn’t wield Nightblood without Stormlight. Sanderson put that in there to add tension to a scene that already had plenty of tension. He also wanted Szeth to lose his arm and that was the only way for him to do it. I don’t even know what Ideal Dalinar was on. I didn’t even know that he was on the third ideal until he summoned the Stormfather as a sword to work the oath gates in book 3. Szeth was definitely in a position to show what the 5th ideal can do. Sanderson chose not to. We have been waiting over a freaking decade to see what the 5th ideal is and Sanderson chose not to reveal it. I am not giving him a pass on that. It’s just crappy writing. 

[Ripheus23]

6 hours ago, christianrapper said:

No, it wasn’t. The sensible thing was to keep his oaths so that he could save his family and mentors with Nightblood.  I am not doing mental gymnastics to make that decision make sense. Szeth knew that he couldn’t wield Nightblood without Stormlight. Sanderson put that in there to add tension to a scene that already had plenty of tension. He also wanted Szeth to lose his arm and that was the only way for him to do it. I don’t even know what Ideal Dalinar was on. I didn’t even know that he was on the third ideal until he summoned the Stormfather as a sword to work the oath gates in book 3. Szeth was definitely in a position to show what the 5th ideal can do. Sanderson chose not to. We have been waiting over a freaking decade to see what the 5th ideal is and Sanderson chose not to reveal it. I am not giving him a pass on that. It’s just crappy writing. 

It makes sense to me  but I would've given Honor to Taravangian, too, had I been in Dalinar's position (it was what I thought he was "supposed" to do anyway).

I should say, the trajectory of my theory about the endgame of the fifth book went like so:

1. As of October 15th, 2018, I was willing to flippantly predict that Szeth and Kaladin would fight Ishar at the end of book 5, over the question of becoming new Heralds.  I abandoned this prediction to wondering whether Szeth and Kaladin would figure in the contest-of-champions, though.
2. Not much later, "Retribution" was the second name I thought an Odium-Honor di-Shard might have.
3. I mistakenly thought, as of July 2018, that Taravangian would take up the Shard of Odium at the end of the fifth book. I later put this prediction out of my mind because I thought Rayse was the likeliest candidate for the enduring antagonist.
4. After book four was released, I deepened my commitment to the theory that Team Dalinar would give the Shard of Honor to Odium, though the mechanics of how this would bind Odium were not what I predicted. I don't know who came up with that general theory originally, though whoever did, I agreed with them before the fourth book came out and had to rework the reasons for my agreement in light of Taravangian's Ascension, then.
5. I was as certain as could be that Honor's power was what "certified" the contest-of-champions/older binding of Odium. So I didn't predict that Dalinar would abandon his oaths, though I should've if I expected Dalinar to give Honor's power over at the climax of the fifth book.

 

Edited January 17, 2025 by Ripheus23

[RefusesToElaborate]

1 hour ago, Ripheus23 said:

It makes sense to me  but I would've given Honor to Taravangian, too, had I been in Dalinar's position (it was what I thought he was "supposed" to do anyway).

Maybe it's spite on my end but unless I knew for a fact, like no gambling whatsoever that the time dilation would put Retrivangian at a disadvantage against other shards, and then I knew for a fact they would unite against him, and then all the ecological changes on Roshar would be reversed, then the most I'd give Taravangian is a dollar and a kick in the shin.

We have to think of it in terms of quality of life for Rosharans. A horizon to horizon everstorm and the loss of stormlight would have actual measurable impacts on the life of Rosharans, none of them good.

I will grant Sabderson one thing. Every 'save the world' story should have a segment asking if the world is worth saving and if your saving it isnt also ruining it. After Dalinar finished helping, I don't know if Rosharans are all gonna believe their world should have been saved 

[Ripheus23]

9 minutes ago, RefusesToElaborate said:

Maybe it's spite on my end but unless I knew for a fact, like no gambling whatsoever that the time dilation would put Retrivangian at a disadvantage against other shards, and then I knew for a fact they would unite against him, and then all the ecological changes on Roshar would be reversed, then the most I'd give Taravangian is a dollar and a kick in the shin.

We have to think of it in terms of quality of life for Rosharans. A horizon to horizon everstorm and the loss of stormlight would have actual measurable impacts on the life of Rosharans, none of them good.

I will grant Sabderson one thing. Every 'save the world' story should have a segment asking if the world is worth saving and if your saving it isnt also ruining it. After Dalinar finished helping, I don't know if Rosharans are all gonna believe their world should have been saved 

Aside from a wonky idea about getting Retribution to create and over-Invest in a new planet, my reason for thinking they'd make Retribution happen was that Rayse would dislike being made to pick up a second Shard, then after Rayse was killed my reason was, "Taravangian wouldn't be able to handle that kind of power, he'd end up compromised like Sazed is." Also, I felt that Dalinar or Kaladin or whoever, taking up Honor and holding it, would be too much like what happened with Vin, and I assumed Sanderson wasn't going to repeat that scenario, at least not in that way.