Could Honor have temporarily been the strongest Shard?

[Ripheus23]

I heard somewhere that some Shards visited Scadrial long ago, meaning not just Preservation and Ruin. Now, if Honor is the Shard of oaths, and if oaths can bind Shards, wouldn't a Shard being subject to an oath---as with Preservation and Ruin agreeing to create Scadrial, or Odium being trapped in the Rosharan system---require being subjected to Honor's power?

My supposition, then, is that Honor at some point was the strongest Shard. I've heard they were equal at the start, so not then. Anyway, whenever he held the crown (so to speak), this was what the ancient Rosharans were inspired by when they named him "the Almighty."

Now, let's suppose Honor could be affected by oaths being broken, in which he'd Invested. So, what happened to him when Preservation surreptitiously broke the pact through which Scadrial was created? I submit that this might have weakened Honor. Not killed him outright, not like a bonded spren being betrayed by its Knight Radiant, but still...

[Scion of the Mists]

I don't think that someone making an oath will magically increase Honor's power.  I think when people refer to a Shard's "power," they're generally referring to total Investiture or available Investiture.  

3 minutes ago, Ripheus23 said:

My supposition, then, is that Honor at some point was the strongest Shard. I've heard they were equal at the start, so not then. Anyway, whenever he held the crown (so to speak), this was what the ancient Rosharans were inspired by when they named him "the Almighty."

Even if he was, in fact, the "strongest" Shard, how would the Rosharans have known that fact?  Even if they were Realmatically aware enough to know what the Shards were, and how many there were, how could they possibly know the relative power differentials?  

[Calderis he/him]

I don't think that Honor is required for a Shard to make a binding oath. I think that's something inherent to all of the Shards. See the contest of champions. 

After all

Quote

"I wish I could do more,” repeated the figure in gold. “You might be able to get him to choose a champion. He is bound by some rules. All of us are" 

 

Edited September 11, 2018 by Calderis

[Ripheus23]

53 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Even if he was, in fact, the "strongest" Shard, how would the Rosharans have known that fact?

I don't mean that they would have sensed his power versus the other Shards, but it just seems odd that a being who died a raving lunatic, ripped apart by Odium, would have ever been perceived as the Almighty unless he at some other point presented as having extraordinary power. I feel like he would have seemed "weak" otherwise, even if the reason he seemed "weak" were unknown.

11 minutes ago, Calderis said:

[Quoting SA] "He is bound by some rules. All of us are."

And I think Honor was, to an extent, the source of those rules. But more on this at another time...

[Weltall]

Almighty is just another word for 'God'. It doesn't require that the Shard in question be the strongest, only that the people applying the term not know of anything stronger. Given that Vorinism is a revisionist religion that has tried to downplay the equal importance of Cultivation and thus elevated Honor to the position of One True God, there's nothing inherently special about the use of that word and we have no evidence that the Vorin Church is that Realmatically-aware in any event. To the contrary, Oathbringer made it clear that even while Honor was alive the humans closest to him (the Knights Radiant) didn't have the full picture.

[Ripheus23]

2 minutes ago, Weltall said:

there's nothing inherently special about the use of that word

IDK, it seems that people in the Cosmere sometimes have a sense of these things. No one, as far as I remember, calls Domi "the Almighty," but they usually say, "Merciful," which corresponds to the Domi-concept being linked back to Aona. Austre is known mostly as the God of Colors, which relates to the beauty of Endowment. The Terris religion is named after Preservation as such.

Besides, somehow Odium has been constrained to the Rosharan system in part by the Oathpact. The Oathpact depends to some extent on Honor's power. So Odium is still bound by the power of a being he killed, which seems to indicate that Honor had an incredible amount of power (if it's that effective even when he's dead).

[Scion of the Mists]

19 minutes ago, Ripheus23 said:

IDK, it seems that people in the Cosmere sometimes have a sense of these things. No one, as far as I remember, calls Domi "the Almighty," but they usually say, "Merciful," which corresponds to the Domi-concept being linked back to Aona. Austre is known mostly as the God of Colors, which relates to the beauty of Endowment. The Terris religion is named after Preservation as such.

Besides, somehow Odium has been constrained to the Rosharan system in part by the Oathpact. The Oathpact depends to some extent on Honor's power. So Odium is still bound by the power of a being he killed, which seems to indicate that Honor had an incredible amount of power (if it's that effective even when he's dead).

Odium is bound by Honor and Cultivation's power.  Just because the Vessel of Honor (Tanavast) is dead doesn't mean that that power goes away.  Yes, Honor has an incredible amount of power.  He's a Shard - by definition, the most powerful thing in existence.  

[Ruin's Scariest Koloss]

1 hour ago, Ripheus23 said:

And I think Honor was, to an extent, the source of those rules. But more on this at another time...

Do you mind elaborating a bit? It seems like if this was the case, it would be relevant to your point.

 

53 minutes ago, Ripheus23 said:

Besides, somehow Odium has been constrained to the Rosharan system in part by the Oathpact. The Oathpact depends to some extent on Honor's power. So Odium is still bound by the power of a being he killed, which seems to indicate that Honor had an incredible amount of power (if it's that effective even when he's dead).

If I understand correctly, the Heralds were also part of the Oathpact, and because of Taln, that hasn't been completely dismantled as of yet.

[Quantus he/him]

Two separate things: 1) I dont actually think Honor (the Shardic Intent) is innately "The Shard of Oaths", rather I think that had more to do with Tanavast's interpretation of that Intent.  There's a strong case to be made that Unity is an alternate interpretation.  But, 2) I dont think individual and/or mundane action that can be done on the scale of mortals is going to actually impact the Shards themselves; much like the WOB that says worrying that granting Breaths is going to reduce Endowment is like worrying that Earth will run out of Carbon because people keep being born. 

 

For that matter, IF (big if, to my mind) any of the 16 are directly empowered by major acts in line with their Intent, Id argue that the shattering of a full quarter of those 16 would likely be the most impactful of such events, and would likely end up Juicing Ruin over the rest.  Unless Odium's Ambition to be the "Biggest Dog" would somehow juice the remnants of Ambition?

Edited September 18, 2018 by Quantus
lots of spelling errors, yeesh

[Ripheus23]

For the record, I'm not saying that each and every oath sworn anywhere in the Cosmere, powered up Honor. I'm saying that when the Shards swore empowered oaths, they had to mediate the power of these oaths via Honor. This mediation would have put Honor in a special position relative to the other Shards. You think it's just happenstance that he and Cultivation went to settle on a world forged by Adonalsium itself? Of course, if Honor never visited Scadrial in the distant past, the point is as such moot, but I've heard of a WoB that says that some (currently unspecified) Shards, besides Ruin and Preservation, did so.

Besides, isn't it storming weird that Ati and Leras would go try to create a world together, if they knew they had opposed Intents and so on? Why not go to already-existent worlds, Ati to some planet he could destroy, Leras to some planet he could preserve? I think they must have been friends around the time of the Shattering. In fact, I suspect that the generic reason for Shards to violate the separation pact involved either friendship or romantic love, or maybe family relations too (just imagine if Aona was Skai's daughter!) (there's also a WoB to the effect that two of the Shards were family members). But Honor represents the marital and, therefore, the family seal, too. So I suspect that Honor certified the pact between Ati and Leras, and was affected (negatively) by Leras' violation of the pact.

[Weltall]

Leras did not violate the agreement though, he pulled a case of exact words on Ati and exploited a loophole the latter had missed. He says so himself in Secret History.

Quote

“Deals can be broken.”

“Not these kinds of deals, Kelsier. I was able to trick Ruin before, lock him away, by fooling him with our agreement. But that wasn’t a breach of contract, more leaving a hole in the agreement to be exploited. This time there are no holes.”

Since Oathbringer reveals that all the Shards are bound by the promises they make and are similarly all bound by rules (coming from Tanavast himself) there's no reason to award Honor any special significance in this respect.

Leras and Ati choosing to create a world rather than going to separate pre-existing ones can be explained quite easily without any recourse to a third Shard. They might have chosen to create a world together because they could and they wanted something made in the image of Yolen, which couldn't be found on any existing planet. It's also possible they wanted a world where they could exercise more control over things by virtue of their creating and permeating it, instead of having to co-opt whatever Adonalsium had already done, like the other Shards. They could have gone together rather than separately because Ati wanted Ruin's power contained and pairing up with Preservation was the obvious way to carry that out, even if he eventually lost sight of that goal. We already know that Ati was trying to channel his intent towards a less destructive option so.teaming up in a long-term plan is hardly a stretch.

Edited September 12, 2018 by Weltall

[Ripheus23]

29 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Since Oathbringer reveals that all the Shards are bound by the promises they make and are similarly all bound by rules (coming from Tanavast himself) there's no reason to award Honor any special significance in this respect.

After the Shattering, all Investiture was assigned to the Shards. Honor is the one who filters Investiture through oaths, so any use of Investiture involving oaths is filtered through Honor in some way or other. So there is no random Investiture system, over and above the Shards, that can be used to bind them. If any oaths or pacts or whatever are used by the Shards, to magically enforce things, this will be "through" Honor.

29 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Leras and Ati choosing to create a world rather than going to separate pre-existing ones can be explained quite easily without any recourse to a third Shard.

I never said Honor was involved in their decision to create a new world as such, but that the agreement by which they were able to create a new world, was certified by Honor.

29 minutes ago, Weltall said:

They might have chosen to create a world together because they could and they wanted something made in the image of Yolen, which couldn't be found on any existing planet

So they both just happened to be so fascinated by the way of things on Yolen that that's why they teamed up? These were human beings in the beginning, man. Usually when people team up for those kinds of reasons, and they don't bring along a whole horde of likeminded people, it's because they're close friends, or lovers, or family. If they had a horde with them, it'd be a "League of People Who Think Yolen Is Cool" or whatever, which is so not what happened.

EDIT: Moreover, unless we assume Preservation's mind wasn't rather fuzzy at that point  I don't see why we should take his characterization of the loophole/dealbreaking at face value. After all, he might've just been making an excuse to explain why he broke a solemn promise.

Edited September 12, 2018 by Ripheus23

[Gasper he/him]

But remember, Oaths hold a power in the spiritual realm and we know Shards have investure beyond their shard worlds. So I think that it is possible that Honor may have been the most powerful at some point in time.

[Calderis he/him]

@Ripheus23considering the evidence available, I'm with @Weltall here completely.

I think Honor has nothing to do with it at all. Any shard making an oath is is bound. There would be no need for Leras explanation otherwise, and no need for his assertion that there's no way out of the deal now that he's forgotten what his plan was. 

I think your right, and Ruin and Preservation were drawn together because of friendship. And because I a shared goal. The containment of Ruin.

Everything that follows is my head canon and purely speculative. 

There are no Splinters on Scadrial. I don't think this, or the world's focus as metal are coincidence at all. I think they built a world to expend as much of Ruin's power as possible to hamper him and, originally, so as not to impact any sapient species in the Cosmere. 

I believe that Ati saw Ruin as a monster to be contained and Leras agreed, and took Preservation specifically as a balancing force to mitigate Ruin's powers. So they built a world together, separated from any sapient life and in the (relative) short term this was good. The intent quickly ate away at Ati and as he descended, Leras struck the deal to create humans, and enacted his plan, using the planets focus to siphon power away from Ruin, and eventually to create Harmony to more effectively contain Ruin then possible in two separate Vessels. 

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

On 2018-09-11 at 3:04 PM, Calderis said:

I don't think that Honor is required for a Shard to make a binding oath. I think that's something inherent to all of the Shards. See the contest of champions. 

After all

 

I dunno, Odium arguably violates his oath by fleeing when Dalinar briefly ascends; he’d agreed to a contest of champions, the context of Dalinar’s request clearly implied that he meant right then and there. But when it became clear that Dalinar was lost to him, he turned tail and ran. If that’s not violating an oath, it’s pretty close.

[Calderis he/him]

1 hour ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

I dunno, Odium arguably violates his oath by fleeing when Dalinar briefly ascends; he’d agreed to a contest of champions, the context of Dalinar’s request clearly implied that he meant right then and there. But when it became clear that Dalinar was lost to him, he turned tail and ran. If that’s not violating an oath, it’s pretty close.

I don't think context matters. I think you make it explicit or you leave them an out. 

If context matters, or what the other party believes, then Leras wouldn't have had his loophole and couldn't have betrayed Ruin. 

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

27 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I don't think context matters. I think you make it explicit or you leave them an out. 

If context matters, or what the other party believes, then Leras wouldn't have had his loophole and couldn't have betrayed Ruin. 

Well, technically unless Ruin explicitly specified a specific date in the future, I don’t think the two situations are equivalent. ‘Eventually’ is extremely broad after all. Either way, I grant the point.

[Ripheus23]

19 hours ago, Calderis said:

I think Honor has nothing to do with it at all. Any shard making an oath is is bound.

Anyone being bound by Investiture is involved thereby with Honor. As Sanderson says,

Quote

... bonds, and how to deal with bonds, and things like this, is an Honor thing. 

There is no leftover-from-Adonalsium rando magic system that holds the Shards to their oaths. This is not LOST, where there are unintelligible Rules that govern the god-figures on the Island. This is the Cosmere, where everything fits together in a mathematical order.

In fact, I realized on top of all this that if Adonalsium was equivalent to a spren, and if the Shards embody concepts, then the Shards are like spren, and taking up a Shard is equivalent to bonding a spren (Ruinspren, Ambitionspren, etc.), so Honor must've mediated the entire process of the Vessels taking up the Shards as such. Or, at least, I will propose this hypothesis (which we'll never know the answer to until who knows how many years from now): Tanavast was the first Vessel to take up a Shard. This is why he went to lord himself over Adonalsium's pet planet, even.

[+Child of Hodor]

1 hour ago, Ripheus23 said:

Anyone being bound by Investiture is involved thereby with Honor. As Sanderson says,

There is no leftover-from-Adonalsium rando magic system that holds the Shards to their oaths. This is not LOST, where there are unintelligible Rules that govern the god-figures on the Island. This is the Cosmere, where everything fits together in a mathematical order.

Maybe the real magic system of LOST was the friends we made along the way  

Brandon does say he has a 4th "law of cosmere magic" specifically for Adonalsium which that he won't discuss. This could be an additional constraint that permeates all subdivisions of the entity.

 

Quote

 

/r/books AMA 2015 (March 12, 2015)
#151July 14, 2015 Share  Copy

 

yurisses

You once said that Investiture follows its own version of the laws of thermodynamics. The first one is that Investiture is neither created nor destroyed.

Is the second law of Investodynamics that the amount of corrupted Investiture in the Cosmere cannot decrease?

Brandon Sanderson

Basically, the idea is that there is a third item in the equations--matter, energy, and investiture. That's the basis of how they work.

Entropy is not corrupted Investiture. The second law stands as is. However, there is a fourth law that relates to Adonalsium, which I'm not going to talk about at the moment.

 

 

Edited September 13, 2018 by Child of Hodor

[Ripheus23]

25 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

Brandon does say he has a 4th "law of cosmere magic" specifically for Adonalsium which that he won't discuss. This could be an additional constraint that permeates all subdivisions of the entity.

If Preservation was not too fuzzy-minded by the time he told Kelsier that the deal in question was a kind that couldn't be broken, I suppose a physical instead of a magical law might account for Shardic oathbinding. However, all of that seems very unlikely.

[Ruin's Scariest Koloss]

3 hours ago, Ripheus23 said:

Anyone being bound by Investiture is involved thereby with Honor. As Sanderson says,

There is no leftover-from-Adonalsium rando magic system that holds the Shards to their oaths. This is not LOST, where there are unintelligible Rules that govern the god-figures on the Island. This is the Cosmere, where everything fits together in a mathematical order.

In fact, I realized on top of all this that if Adonalsium was equivalent to a spren, and if the Shards embody concepts, then the Shards are like spren, and taking up a Shard is equivalent to bonding a spren (Ruinspren, Ambitionspren, etc.), so Honor must've mediated the entire process of the Vessels taking up the Shards as such. Or, at least, I will propose this hypothesis (which we'll never know the answer to until who knows how many years from now): Tanavast was the first Vessel to take up a Shard. This is why he went to lord himself over Adonalsium's pet planet, even.

I think you're making a lot of assumptions here. When read in context, that quote seems to be saying that bonds are something that Honor and those who use Honor's magic would use to interact with the world, not Honor is somehow in charge of every sort of bond that is made in the Cosmere.

[Scion of the Mists]

16 hours ago, Ripheus23 said:

There is no leftover-from-Adonalsium rando magic system that holds the Shards to their oaths. This is not LOST, where there are unintelligible Rules that govern the god-figures on the Island. This is the Cosmere, where everything fits together in a mathematical order.

We don't know enough about the Shards to say that or the Spiritual Realm.  In fact, all the evidence points to there being rules that all Shards have to follow.  These rules and agreements are mentioned multiple times and not once does it ever say that Honor is at the root.  

 

16 hours ago, Ripheus23 said:

Tanavast was the first Vessel to take up a Shard. This is why he went to lord himself over Adonalsium's pet planet, even.

Why do you think Roshar is Adonalsium's pet planet?  Most of the planets were created by Adonalsium - Scadrial is the exception, not the rule.  

[Ripheus23]

18 hours ago, Ruin's Scariest Koloss said:

When read in context, that quote seems to be saying that bonds are something that Honor and those who use Honor's magic would use to interact with the world, not Honor is somehow in charge of every sort of bond that is made in the Cosmere.

I never said he was in charge of every promise whatsoever (although he is Connected to them all). I said that he was involved with all Investiture-based promissory binding. Now if the Shards can bind themselves to agreements without using Investiture, then my point is half-moot. Preservation's depiction of the agreement with Ruin suggests as much, though following his lead depends on trusting his judgment (which at that point was not by any means unquestionable). But I think much of this discussion has been derailed due to an overemphasis on the ambiguous Ati-Leras pact, rather than an equal (or greater) emphasis on the Oathpact and the sealing of Odium. The fact remains that if Honor's power suffices (or is authorized) to bind "the most terrible" Shard of them all (supposing Odium *is* the worst), even when Honor is dead, that is a testament to how much power Honor had.

5 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Why do you think Roshar is Adonalsium's pet planet?  Most of the planets were created by Adonalsium - Scadrial is the exception, not the rule.  

Although I did check on the WoB about Adonalsium growing Roshar the continent, and the WoB says something about other regions being likewise designed, still, if Adonalsium is like a spren and Roshar is the only place in the Cosmere where spren regularly manifest... Besides which, when all is said and done, there's not going to be some other world that Sanderson will have detailed quite so much as Roshar, from the lengths of the books to the special materials inside, to the projected series length (10 books in two 5-book arcs). Even the 13 Mistborn books won't add up to that much.

[Ruin's Scariest Koloss]

37 minutes ago, Ripheus23 said:

The fact remains that if Honor's power suffices (or is authorized) to bind "the most terrible" Shard of them all (supposing Odium *is* the worst), even when Honor is dead, that is a testament to how much power Honor had.

I think we just fundamentally disagree on what Honor's power does and the mechanics that bind shards to agreements. Also, it's not clear what exactly got Odium stuck in the first place. There's no real evidence that we can point to that says it was Honor's power that binds him or not. We just know that Honor was somehow involved with Odium getting trapped in the Rosharan system.

[Ripheus23]

45 minutes ago, Ruin's Scariest Koloss said:

I think we just fundamentally disagree on what Honor's power does and the mechanics that bind shards to agreements. Also, it's not clear what exactly got Odium stuck in the first place. There's no real evidence that we can point to that says it was Honor's power that binds him or not. We just know that Honor was somehow involved with Odium getting trapped in the Rosharan system.

Well, sometimes I disagree with Sanderson's explanation of his own worlds but as far as his own explanations go, it would have to be Honor who undergirds the binding of the Shards unless they aren't bound by Investiture. Honor being involved with Odium being trapped, not directly/only by the Oathpact but still in relation to it, is tantamount to Honor's power binding Odium, since an Oathpact is two different words for promissory binding in one word (a binding of bindings!). In fact, again, any binding is per Honor's power, since that's just what Honor's power is (of binding).

IRL there are two main categories of binding, physical and ethical. There's also the question of "the unity of propositions" but that might be thought of as metaphysical and metaethical in one (unless moral binding recursively yields propositional unity, with subjects being morally bound to predicates, but that's the theory of axiogenesis and while possibly part of some deep Realmatics, I'm not sure we've seen much in the way of it in any Cosmere writings to date). So, Shardic binding is either caused by physics that result from their mere agreements, which doesn't sound likely at all, or it's caused by ethics, which means the type of binding would default to the Shard whose nature is based on the concept of being ethically bound, i.e. Honor.

EDIT: I just found a WoB that says Kelsier would enjoy punching Honor a lot. I want to fit this into my theory but I'm not sure how to do so yet...

Edited September 14, 2018 by Ripheus23