Rioting a Fused

[Trusk'our he/him]

Now, technically since Fused are Invested and they'll resist Soothing or Rioting, but let's assuming that the Allomancy is strong enough to power through somewhat. 

Voidlight amplifies one's emotions much more than normal, so could this be used against them when using Emotional Allomancy? Say you Riot them with anxiety or fear- shouldn't this be further amplified?

I suppose their resistance might just get canceled out by this, but it might be an ironc edge to use against them.

[Treamayne]

7 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Now, technically since Fused are Invested and they'll resist Soothing or Rioting, but let's assuming that the Allomancy is strong enough to power through somewhat. 

Voidlight amplifies one's emotions much more than normal, so could this be used against them when using Emotional Allomancy? Say you Riot them with anxiety or fear- shouldn't this be further amplified?

I suppose their resistance might just get canceled out by this, but it might be an ironc edge to use against them.

I think Void light is rioting the person holding the light, just as we've seen at least two unmade use Rioting in their abilities - which leads me to think you might more effectively disrupt things with Soothing over Rioting (maybe dependant on the desired effect).

 

[Quantus he/him]

On the other hand, supposedly Singers generally feel emotions less strongly than Humans, as a stated reason the Emotionspren respond to Humans more than Singers. That could be an in-world misconception though.  But it might tip their scales in that direction more.

If you really wanted to freak them out with emotional Allomancy, drop them into a Coppercloud and suddenly cut them off from the Rhythms. That would probably distract a Singer at least as much as being suddenly granted tons of Breaths mid-combat (as a completely random made-up example).  

 

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

If you really wanted to freak them out with emotional Allomancy, drop them into a Coppercloud and suddenly cut them off from the Rhythms. That would probably distract a Singer at least as much as being suddenly granted tons of Breaths mid-combat (as a completely random made-up example).  

Maybe as a Mistborn or Hemalurgist use a Coppercloud and then hit them with Rioted fear/panic for maximum effect?

[DoctaDajman]

On 1/16/2025 at 8:07 AM, Trusk'our said:

Maybe as a Mistborn or Hemalurgist use a Coppercloud and then hit them with Rioted fear/panic for maximum effect?

These powers are so slept on. 

The Mistborn novels were all written with more political and social intrigue I feel like. 

When in physical combat losing is more of a permanent issue I feel like. The plot armor wins out... there is something about reading about political and social jousts that have always made me think of more long term and impactful consequences to the story line vs a fight scene. Thus getting caught using those powers always seemed to be higher risk.  

If you are fighting in a battle and you need pewter to win then you use it and everything's good. Even if your opponent knows you have it in the future it's not going to destroy your ability to function in society and make everyone question everything about you forever... you just get strong. But being a rioter or a soother paints a massive target on your back and wrecks your credibility (or at least that is what we were shown in the mistborn books so far).  

Vin proves just how powerful it can be against Straff. We are talking about a man who is completely versed in what is happening as well right? He knew what she was doing which theoretically should have made it less effective for anything other than shock and awe as well. But he was entirely crippled by the attack. Not to mention he too was a powerful allomancer (and if anticipating an assault was likely actively burning which should make him even more invested in that moment).

As @Quantus said, the bigger assault to a fuzed / singer would likely be a strong coppercloud though. 

I have wondered in the past that perhaps rioting and soothing are attached in part to rhythms. So for a race that always hears them, would a singer / fuzed be more or less susceptible to rioting and soothing baseline regardless of Investiture level? 

Regardless of what emotional allomancy does the coppercloud would cut them off of a sense entirely.  Like losing your sight... they also communicate and coordinate their attacks and efforts through rhythms right?  

In the end... we have seen emotional allomancy mostly used intentionally in highly subtle ways with the risk being getting found out... if employed as a weapon with no fear of the repercussions for using it on the battlefield... I think it could easily be the difference between victory and death. Very similar to Vasher vs Denth.

 

I think people really underestimate the importance of every second in a fight. Think of how effective a sucker punch is. Think how much more effective that could be as a free shot with a blade or weapon?  When you blast someone with emotional allomancy that's what you buy yourself. It's just boring to read. 

[Trusk'our he/him]

24 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

I have wondered in the past that perhaps rioting and soothing are attached in part to rhythms.

Rhythms aren't your actual emotions, but but a direct Connection to the SR. Emotional Allomancy is more like a CR wave that laps against your Cognitive Aspect, stirring it to feel a certain way.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/117-boskone-54/#e1600

Questioner (paraphrased)

Could a Soother prevent a listener from attuning a given rhythm?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No. A coppercloud could, but I hadn't thought about emotional allomancy interacting. See, the rhythm isn't your emotion and doesn't determine your mood. It is a direct connection to the spiritual realm. So I guess soothing could make it harder just like it makes anything harder, in the same way that driving a car would be harder. [recording starts here] And so, for the same reasons that you can, um, it is possible that a coppercloud can play with it. Not a normal power of a coppercloud, but you’ve seen them do stuff similar.

 

Footnote: Question was cut off in recording, first bit reproduced from memory

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100-rbooks-ama-2015/#e3547

<snipped for relevance>

Phantine

Does that 'inside a body' thing work on most magics?

For instance, if Han stuck Luke into a Mistborn Tauntaun (a distant and unlucky relative of the mistborn llama), would Luke be protected from both the cold and emotional allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson

He'd have to get him inside a living one.

It does work on most magics, though the interactions can be odd unless you know a lot about the workings. Emotional Allomancy, for example, works by lapping against the outsides of someone's cognitive self, influencing you the way music might stir your soul. So being inside a living body wouldn't necessarily stop it--you'd just have more interference. Kind of like how you can still hear music outside if it's loud enough.

Actual mind control in the cosmere requires you to get INSIDE the soul, which you've seen happen frequently enough. There has to be a gap or an opening.

Or, conversely, you just have to be so powerful that you can push through the interference.

Weirdly, emotional Allomancy seems to be capable of bonding an Allomancer to Hemalurgically pierced beings, which feels more SR based. I'd guess it's because the CR waves squeeze into the Spiritweb cracks and transition to being a more direct manipulation.

Perhaps this is why Kandra, despite having sapience, reportedly do not feel emotional Allomancy without it being strong enough to overtake them (though TenSoon might have just been lying to protect his people's secret).

41 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

These powers are so slept on. 

The Mistborn novels were all written with more political and social intrigue I feel like. 

When in physical combat losing is more of a permanent issue I feel like. The plot armor wins out... there is something about reading about political and social jousts that have always made me think of more long term and impactful consequences to the story line vs a fight scene. Thus getting caught using those powers always seemed to be higher risk.  

If you are fighting in a battle and you need pewter to win then you use it and everything's good. Even if your opponent knows you have it in the future it's not going to destroy your ability to function in society and make everyone question everything about you forever... you just get strong. But being a rioter or a soother paints a massive target on your back and wrecks your credibility (or at least that is what we were shown in the mistborn books so far).  

Vin proves just how powerful it can be against Straff. We are talking about a man who is completely versed in what is happening as well right? He knew what she was doing which theoretically should have made it less effective for anything other than shock and awe as well. But he was entirely crippled by the attack. Not to mention he too was a powerful allomancer (and if anticipating an assault was likely actively burning which should make him even more invested in that moment).

As @Quantus said, the bigger assault to a fuzed / singer would likely be a strong coppercloud though. 

. . .

Regardless of what emotional allomancy does the coppercloud would cut them off of a sense entirely.  Like losing your sight... they also communicate and coordinate their attacks and efforts through rhythms right?  

In the end... we have seen emotional allomancy mostly used intentionally in highly subtle ways with the risk being getting found out... if employed as a weapon with no fear of the repercussions for using it on the battlefield... I think it could easily be the difference between victory and death. Very similar to Vasher vs Denth.

 

I think people really underestimate the importance of every second in a fight. Think of how effective a sucker punch is. Think how much more effective that could be as a free shot with a blade or weapon?  When you blast someone with emotional allomancy that's what you buy yourself. It's just boring to read. 

You make good arguments for combat oriented emotional Allomancy. I agree. 

Also, it would be exceptionally powerful on large squads of troops. Bolster your allies with a controlled Thrill whilst smothering their opponents with waves of fear, mistrust, and depression. 

[DoctaDajman]

1 hour ago, Trusk&#x27;our said:

Rhythms aren't your actual emotions, but but a direct Connection to the SR. Emotional Allomancy is more like a CR wave that laps against your Cognitive Aspect, stirring it to feel a certain way.

  Hide contents

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/117-boskone-54/#e1600

Questioner (paraphrased)

Could a Soother prevent a listener from attuning a given rhythm?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No. A coppercloud could, but I hadn't thought about emotional allomancy interacting. See, the rhythm isn't your emotion and doesn't determine your mood. It is a direct connection to the spiritual realm. So I guess soothing could make it harder just like it makes anything harder, in the same way that driving a car would be harder. [recording starts here] And so, for the same reasons that you can, um, it is possible that a coppercloud can play with it. Not a normal power of a coppercloud, but you’ve seen them do stuff similar.

 

Footnote: Question was cut off in recording, first bit reproduced from memory

  Hide contents

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100-rbooks-ama-2015/#e3547

<snipped for relevance>

Phantine

Does that 'inside a body' thing work on most magics?

For instance, if Han stuck Luke into a Mistborn Tauntaun (a distant and unlucky relative of the mistborn llama), would Luke be protected from both the cold and emotional allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson

He'd have to get him inside a living one.

It does work on most magics, though the interactions can be odd unless you know a lot about the workings. Emotional Allomancy, for example, works by lapping against the outsides of someone's cognitive self, influencing you the way music might stir your soul. So being inside a living body wouldn't necessarily stop it--you'd just have more interference. Kind of like how you can still hear music outside if it's loud enough.

Actual mind control in the cosmere requires you to get INSIDE the soul, which you've seen happen frequently enough. There has to be a gap or an opening.

Or, conversely, you just have to be so powerful that you can push through the interference.

Weirdly, emotional Allomancy seems to be capable of bonding an Allomancer to Hemalurgically pierced beings, which feels more SR based. I'd guess it's because the CR waves squeeze into the Spiritweb cracks and transition to being a more direct manipulation.

Perhaps this is why Kandra, despite having sapience, reportedly do not feel emotional Allomancy without it being strong enough to overtake them (though TenSoon might have just been lying to protect his people's secret).

You make good arguments for combat oriented emotional Allomancy. I agree. 

Also, it would be exceptionally powerful on large squads of troops. Bolster your allies with a controlled Thrill whilst smothering their opponents with waves of fear, mistrust, and depression. 

Yeah, it would be powerful to have emotional allomancers as leaders within squads or armies. We see it to great effect in the battle for Luthedel if I remember correctly. 

 

Mistborn are so versatile that I sometimes feel they are wasted as mere assassins and powerhouses on the battlefield. My favorite thoughts of mistborn in the newer era as just how busted they would be as commanders on the field. They offer a tremendous amount of control. From emotional allomancy to crowd control options with steel and iron to being individual monsters with pewter and even the time bubble manipulation. Cadmium bubbles are big enough to cause mass confusion of an oncoming army. The enemy charging at blurring speed to the people in the bubble means that as each well spaced row of soldiers enters your bubble they are getting speared and trampled by the rows behind them.  

Vin dancing over the battlefield was super cool to read about. Don't get me wrong. But they aren't immortal and a smart leader could probably get more out of a mistborn by utilizing its ability to control a battlefield than simply by sending it to act as an army of one. 

[+robardin he/him]

On 1/27/2025 at 1:35 PM, DoctaDajman said:

Yeah, it would be powerful to have emotional allomancers as leaders within squads or armies. We see it to great effect in the battle for Luthedel if I remember correctly. 

...dancing over the battlefield was super cool to read about. Don't get me wrong. But they aren't immortal and a smart leader could probably get more out of a mistborn by utilizing its ability to control a battlefield than simply by sending it to act as an army of one. 

Well at the end of the Final Empire, Allomancers -- even Vin -- were not really strong enough to Soothe/Riot over an entire squad or battlefield. It is after all a targeted effect for maximum impact, or a weaker, less specific area effect centered on the Allomancer. Only Rashek was able to mega-soothe over a large area, and he was kind of a Very Special Guy. And even he couldn't "project" it over a battlefield, he'd have to be physically in the center of said field.

As far as using a numbing Megasoothe blast (as Vin did to Straff Venture) or Riotflare of fear (as she did to Kliss to make her tell what she knew about the assassination plot in motion against Elend, in a 1-2 soothe-n-riot combo) in personal combat to make the other person stumble, I suppose with training that could be done without taking your concentration off of your own physical motions.

And in Straff's case, she needed duralumin to get that effect. (A lerasium Mistborn or TLR could probably do it without duralumin?)

But, if you would have to stop and concentrate/focus on what it is you wanted to do with your emotional twiddles, that could end up being the "took my eye off the ball" moment of exposure that gets YOU in trouble in a fight. And since emotional Allomancy was something you didn't want people to know you could do (lest they reject their shifting emotions as unnatural), people were trained to use it with a fairly light touch.

And in the most intense one-on-one fights she we saw Vin engage in, it was against another Mistborn like Shan Elariel, against Inquisitors, or TLR himself... All of who could just burn copper. No point in trying such a ploy.

[DoctaDajman]

10 hours ago, robardin said:

Well at the end of the Final Empire, Allomancers -- even Vin -- were not really strong enough to Soothe/Riot over an entire squad or battlefield. It is after all a targeted effect for maximum impact, or a weaker, less specific area effect centered on the Allomancer. Only Rashek was able to mega-soothe over a large area, and he was kind of a Very Special Guy. And even he couldn't "project" it over a battlefield, he'd have to be physically in the center of said field.

As far as using a numbing Megasoothe blast (as Vin did to Straff Venture) or Riotflare of fear (as she did to Kliss to make her tell what she knew about the assassination plot in motion against Elend, in a 1-2 soothe-n-riot combo) in personal combat to make the other person stumble, I suppose with training that could be done without taking your concentration off of your own physical motions.

And in Straff's case, she needed duralumin to get that effect. (A lerasium Mistborn or TLR could probably do it without duralumin?)

But, if you would have to stop and concentrate/focus on what it is you wanted to do with your emotional twiddles, that could end up being the "took my eye off the ball" moment of exposure that gets YOU in trouble in a fight. And since emotional Allomancy was something you didn't want people to know you could do (lest they reject their shifting emotions as unnatural), people were trained to use it with a fairly light touch.

And in the most intense one-on-one fights she we saw Vin engage in, it was against another Mistborn like Shan Elariel, against Inquisitors, or TLR himself... All of who could just burn copper. No point in trying such a ploy.

I mean. In warfare the winning side was the one who retreated last... an allomancer soothing fear or rioting that bravery to a group of soldiers... could absolutely change the tide of a battle. 

I think the real issue with it would be that they could end up giving the enemy ranks just as much fuel in whichever direction they want their own men in. Positioning is your best friend here... you don't put the guy who is in charge of communications in front of the machine gunner. 

Mistborn make this better as they are highly mobile anyway and can pop in and out where and when they are needed. 

If you were running a sort of cavalry you could employ the strategy with it as well... rioting fear and anxiety in the enemy ranks as you approach. Especially if you can supply your cavalry with aluminum lining in their helmets. 

While in fights between Scadrian nations these tactics may not be as effective but in the OP it was about the singers and fused which would make the tactics more effective. And in that case smokers would be your best friend as an army as they would block out the rhythms from being heard by the singers.

 

In a battle I would say throw out subtlety. You are trying to cause large shifts in the enemy psychological fortitude. If you can blast enough fear into the front line coming at you to make them pause in the same critical timespan of it will be a massive advantage as you pointed out.  

That is the same idea with pulsing out cadmium bubbles... even if it only effects 10 guys it can cause enough disturbance to hasten the enemy calling it quits before you do. 

 

A mistborn could start causing chaos with bubbles at the start of the fight and have already bolstered his allies with bravado and soothed away doubt and fear... then jump into the fray above the enemy and spray projectiles while sending out large waves of discouragement.  Break up the enemy ranks here and retreat back to your own ranks who are suffering and try bolstered them there next. 

Getting into a fight with another mistborn could very well be a thing but you don't have to stay in that fight over the enemies forces. Retreat yourself and use your own people to disuade them from pursuit. 

It reminds me of the Tuskegee Airmen... there willingness to not peel off of the group looking for a dog fight is where they found their groove and victories.  

Mistborn wanting to be massive murder machines is so limiting. Sure they can take out an army on their own... but wouldn't they be better utilized as highly mobile command units? 

Edited February 11, 2025 by DoctaDajman

[+robardin he/him]

15 hours ago, DoctaDajman said:

Mistborn wanting to be massive murder machines is so limiting. Sure they can take out an army on their own... but wouldn't they be better utilized as highly mobile command units? 

Think about where this is all coming from, though.

Mistborn did not exist until Rashek's Ascension: aside from himself, they were created by him giving 10 nuggets of lerasium to the founding "kings who knelt". Would that power have been useful in creating and consolidating The Final Empire, in those early days? No doubt. And that's why they were the founders of the ten highest noble Houses in the Empire. For all we know, the ten Lerasium Mistborn kings DID operate in that way (as battlefield commanders).

Fast forward to about a thousand years later, to the time of Vin, Elend, and Kelsier's crew. Allomancers (Mistings) are rare, Mistborn are far more rare, the Steel Inquisition is meticulous, and skaa Mistborn -- well basically, there were three in their entire generation, in Gemmel, Kelsier, and Vin.

Even so powerful a house as Venture has no Mistborn born into them in that generation, Straff himself being a Tineye Misting. Straff had to go to quite a lot of "trouble" (ahem) to engender even a single illegitimate Mistborn that he kept secret.

And there we have the point of it all: what do you do with a Mistborn in your house/family? Like, even if Elend, his legitimate heir, had been a Mistborn, what would Straff have done with him, or (tried to) raise him to become?

Use him to "take out an army on his own?" Or to be "a mobile command unit"? For what? The Lord Ruler ruled all, and the nail that sticks out too far gets hammered down.

"House wars" were not supposed to be conducted as open field combat, army on army; the Lord Ruler would not tolerate that. The only army he needed was the one he already had, to maintain "stability" among the skaa, plus koloss. And if he needed multi-powered "field commanders" for the koloss or his armies, he had Inquisitors whose loyalty would not be in question.

Since as far as they knew, only Mistborn could burn atium which made them all but invincible killing machines, and since assassinations and down-low killings were the kinds of inter-house "war" generally permitted by TLR (with the occasional larger flare-up shrugged off by him as long as it did not threaten the actual stability of his Empire), you would not want your headcount of Mistborn to be known -- lest it become obvious you were down to zero and thus it being "open season" on your House as targets.

Edited February 11, 2025 by robardin

[DoctaDajman]

On 2/11/2025 at 9:53 AM, robardin said:

Think about where this is all coming from, though.

Mistborn did not exist until Rashek's Ascension: aside from himself, they were created by him giving 10 nuggets of lerasium to the founding "kings who knelt". Would that power have been useful in creating and consolidating The Final Empire, in those early days? No doubt. And that's why they were the founders of the ten highest noble Houses in the Empire. For all we know, the ten Lerasium Mistborn kings DID operate in that way (as battlefield commanders).

Fast forward to about a thousand years later, to the time of Vin, Elend, and Kelsier's crew. Allomancers (Mistings) are rare, Mistborn are far more rare, the Steel Inquisition is meticulous, and skaa Mistborn -- well basically, there were three in their entire generation, in Gemmel, Kelsier, and Vin.

Even so powerful a house as Venture has no Mistborn born into them in that generation, Straff himself being a Tineye Misting. Straff had to go to quite a lot of "trouble" (ahem) to engender even a single illegitimate Mistborn that he kept secret.

And there we have the point of it all: what do you do with a Mistborn in your house/family? Like, even if Elend, his legitimate heir, had been a Mistborn, what would Straff have done with him, or (tried to) raise him to become?

Use him to "take out an army on his own?" Or to be "a mobile command unit"? For what? The Lord Ruler ruled all, and the nail that sticks out too far gets hammered down.

"House wars" were not supposed to be conducted as open field combat, army on army; the Lord Ruler would not tolerate that. The only army he needed was the one he already had, to maintain "stability" among the skaa, plus koloss. And if he needed multi-powered "field commanders" for the koloss or his armies, he had Inquisitors whose loyalty would not be in question.

Since as far as they knew, only Mistborn could burn atium which made them all but invincible killing machines, and since assassinations and down-low killings were the kinds of inter-house "war" generally permitted by TLR (with the occasional larger flare-up shrugged off by him as long as it did not threaten the actual stability of his Empire), you would not want your headcount of Mistborn to be known -- lest it become obvious you were down to zero and thus it being "open season" on your House as targets.

You definately bring up a good point as to why things were done the way they were done. 

In terms of the OP and assaulting other non scadrians I still stand by mistborn being ideal mobile command units. 

Mistborn in terms of what we see yeah. This could absolutely have been a use in earlier times. I agree that mistborn in TFE had to be treated in one way. I also have to remember that Vin and Elend weren't really trained in the art of war... TLR made it so that noone needed to be trained in the arts of war so mistborn learned to be magically gifted cut throats instead. I acknowledge that 100%. 

In terms of a mistborn existing in a different world and different time frame in a way where they could meet up against Parshendi... they would be wasted as mere assassins.

 

[+robardin he/him]

1 hour ago, DoctaDajman said:

In terms of the OP and assaulting other non scadrians I still stand by mistborn being ideal mobile command units. 

Mistborn in terms of what we see yeah. This could absolutely have been a use in earlier times. I agree that mistborn in TFE had to be treated in one way. I also have to remember that Vin and Elend weren't really trained in the art of war... TLR made it so that noone needed to be trained in the arts of war so mistborn learned to be magically gifted cut throats instead. I acknowledge that 100%. 

In terms of a mistborn existing in a different world and different time frame in a way where they could meet up against Parshendi... they would be wasted as mere assassins.

Against "Parshendi" maybe, but not Fused. As we see at the beginning of HoA where Elend is a Lerasium Mistborn Emperor, he is still personally taking the field at Vetitian (as well as leading human troops, including with emotional Allomancy to inspire them and to quell their fears) because of the Invested enemy they are fighting: koloss.

Rioting courage or morale can only go so far when a human squad is facing down a large force of koloss. Ultimately it had to be the Allomancers who stopped them.

[DoctaDajman]

1 hour ago, robardin said:

Against "Parshendi" maybe, but not Fused. As we see at the beginning of HoA where Elend is a Lerasium Mistborn Emperor, he is still personally taking the field at Vetitian (as well as leading human troops, including with emotional Allomancy to inspire them and to quell their fears) because of the Invested enemy they are fighting: koloss.

Rioting courage or morale can only go so far when a human squad is facing down a large force of koloss. Ultimately it had to be the Allomancers who stopped them.

Do the Fused still rely on and listen to the rhythms?  

If they do then the mistborn would be even more beneficial for the human army in that moment. Copper cloud drowns out the rhythms > fused investiture protects them from emotional allomancy > human army gets Rioted and Soothed.  

The copper is what blots out the rhythms and discombobulates the Listeners... and I do believe there fused still do some communicating through the rhythms themselves which would allow a mistborn to cause more AoE havoc in this situation. 

[QuantumAce]

On 2/12/2025 at 12:39 PM, DoctaDajman said:

In terms of the OP and assaulting other non scadrians I still stand by mistborn being ideal mobile command units. 

They could quickly support specific small groups on a battlefield, but that would be more of a tactical support unit. I could see them being used similar to a shard bearer, leading a charge to break through enemy lines, or jumping to support weak spots in their own lines. In most situations, their powers are all most effective when used up close and targeted against an individual or small group. Emotional allomancy could add a nice boost to any mistborn skilled enough to use it alongside their physical powers. 

 

On 2/12/2025 at 3:53 PM, DoctaDajman said:

If they do then the mistborn would be even more beneficial for the human army in that moment. Copper cloud drowns out the rhythms > fused investiture protects them from emotional allomancy > human army gets Rioted and Soothed.  

The copper is what blots out the rhythms and discombobulates the Listeners... and I do believe there fused still do some communicating through the rhythms themselves which would allow a mistborn to cause more AoE havoc in this situation. 

A coppercloud could be effective at momentarily disrupting singers and fused, but its not going to be debilitating. I believe a coppercould would also disrupt or interfere with most uses of investiture, so it would have to be targeted and coordinated with allies. 

 

Edited February 19, 2025 by QuantumAce