TheoreticalMagic Posted January 8, 2025 Posted January 8, 2025 (edited) I know this isn't the first thread about the four Aspects of Adonalsium, but most others I've found try to sort or guess at them from a very different angle than I'm going with here: We know that many of the Rhythms the Singers sing to, and in a different way the Shards' Intents themselves, are based on the works of Carl Jung, according to things Brandon's said over the years. But if you look to a totally different area of Jung's ideas....what if the four Aspects of Adonalsium aren't related to Intents at all, but rather Archetypes? I'm basing this off the the Iriali interlude, when the 17th Shard worldhoppers are talking to some of them and reference Hoid....who the Iriali regard as part of the Trickster ASPECT of Adonalsium, spun off from him to sow chaos. Interestingly, the Trickster (or Jester, in Jung's original writings...although you could also make a case for the Trickster being a derivation of The Magician instead), is one of 12 archetypal FIGURES most commonly associated with Jung: The Innocent, The Orphan, The Hero, The Caregiver, The Explorer, The Rebel, The Lover, The Creator, The Jester, The Sage, The Magician and The Ruler. BUT. Each of those 12 Archetypes are usually associated with or filed under what are considered the four PRIMARY Jungian Archetypes. Or Aspects. I don't actually think the Trickster is one of Adonalsium's four primary Aspects, similar to how the Iriali myths about Hoid don't match up with what we know of Hoid's relationship to Adonalsium and other figures of cosmere mythology. But exploring this train of thought took me to the primary Archetypes/Aspects and I suspect there we might be much closer to the true nature of Adonalsium's Four Aspects. 1) THE PERSONA The Persona is how we present ourselves to the world. It could, theoretically be argued to be the Physical manifestation of the Self. It represents all the different "masks" or personas we build or adopt to navigate social situations or respond to specific scenarios. It acts to shield the ego from negative perceptions and to act as a social mask that shields others from all the negative emotions or instincts that aren't considered socially acceptable. Quote The persona archetype allows people to adapt to the world around them and fit in with the society in which they live. However, becoming too closely identified with this archetype can lead people to lose sight of their true selves. 2) THE SHADOW The Shadow is part of the unconscious mind and contains all repressed ideas, negative aspects of the self or weaknesses, flaws, etc. It is all the things about the Self that are considered objectionable to not just society itself, but a person's own individual morals and wishes for the Self. I can't help but draw connections to Shadesmar, the Shadow Realm of the cosmere, though of course I don't think its as simple in Realmatics as to say all the negative aspects of the self reside in Shadesmar....or at least JUST the negative aspects. There's positive aspects to the Cognitive Realm as well. Quote This archetype is often described as the darker side of the psyche, representing wildness, chaos, and the unknown. These latent dispositions are present in all of us, Jung believed, although people sometimes deny this element of their own psyche and instead project it on to others. 3) THE ANIMA OR ANIMUS These dual aspects were considered by Jung to be the feminine part of the male psyche and the masculine part of the female psyche. The anima/animus serves as the primary method of communication - or Connection - to the collective unconscious, which resides at the heart of all Jungian theory. If there's an Aspect of Adonalsium more directly rooted in the Spiritual Realm, it would be this one. Quote In many cultures, however, men and women are encouraged to adopt traditional and often rigid gender roles. Jung suggested that this discouragement of men exploring their feminine aspects and of women exploring their masculine aspects served to undermine psychological development. Integrating both the feminine and masculine aspects of our personality into an authentic unified whole is a healthy part of human development. A good balance would be a person who relies on both emotion and reason, intuition and logic, cooperation and competition, and so on. The combined anima and animus is known as the syzygy or the divine couple. The syzygy represents completion, unification, and wholeness. 4) THE SELF The final primary Jungian archetype is the unified Self....the individuation created by all three other Aspects being regarded as an entirety rather than engaged with separately. Interestingly, Jungian philosophy treats this as existing alongside each of the other three individual archetypes rather than being treated as an end result or conclusion....because of something that strikes me as reminiscent of how Fortune is talked about and might derive from some similar themes or mechanics: the idea that there is no singular way for all these other archetypes to combine, no singular "true" self....there are infinite expressions of the Self, each derived from the other three archetypes combining in different forms, proportions, according to different priorities, etc. From this angle it makes sense to treat the complete Self as one Aspect out of Four rather than one Aspect made from Three....because any expression of the Self is a Possibility rather than an Inevitability. I'm still working out my own thoughts on this, but I thought I'd share this chart which shows how the 12 Archetypal Figures can be juxtaposed with the four primary Aspects, which also brought to mind a lot of the theorizing about the Dawnshards and their nature/relationship to Adonalsium and his Four Aspects. I just haven't totally finalized how those connections work in my own mind, but maybe this will spark some ideas for other people in the meanwhile. (And if anyone's read any of my other posts about the Dawnshards, you know my belief is that the four Primal Commands are Exist, Weigh/Matter, Move and Connect/Unify/Bind. Leave a Mark definitely seems another way of saying Weigh/Matter IMO, Espiritual Journey is another way of saying Move, Provide Structure is Exist and Connect to Others is Connect/Unify/Bind. If I'm on to anything with these four Primary Archetypes being the Four Aspects of Adonalsium, I'd argue that each of the 12 Archetypal Figures in some way relate to one of the Shards in the vein of each being a manifestation of the Persona, the Shadow, the Anima/Animus or the Self....the sticking point is that leaves four Shards left over, which is what I'm still trying to work out....if maybe four of the Shards are more of a gestalt or distillation....idk, there's something I'm missing here. But I also think there's definitely something to this, especially when you match up the idea of the four Dawnshards as correlating to the chart below....like I don't think its a coincidence that there are sixteen spaces on that chart, in total. Maybe the reason we have so much trouble grouping sixteen Shards is because they don't fall into a unilateral table, but rather the below grouping, with four of them having a different relationship to the other twelve, who are more unilaterally equidistant?) Edited January 8, 2025 by TheoreticalMagic 3
Light In the Darkness Posted January 8, 2025 Posted January 8, 2025 This is an interesting way of looking at it! I think there is something here. My only holdup is that we know two of the dawnshards now; the one held by Rysn is Change, and the one held by Sigzil is Exist, IIRC, at least in the English books. Change could also be Espiritual Journey, instead of Move, which would mean this still works, and I think this division with four shards being more "purely" tied to each command fits well, since we've seen potential "pure" shards in Honor - connection - and Preservation - existence. 2
TheoreticalMagic Posted January 9, 2025 Author Posted January 9, 2025 (edited) 8 hours ago, Light In the Darkness said: This is an interesting way of looking at it! I think there is something here. My only holdup is that we know two of the dawnshards now; the one held by Rysn is Change, and the one held by Sigzil is Exist, IIRC, at least in the English books. Change could also be Espiritual Journey, instead of Move, which would mean this still works, and I think this division with four shards being more "purely" tied to each command fits well, since we've seen potential "pure" shards in Honor - connection - and Preservation - existence. That makes sense. I originally had Weigh/Matter and Connect/Bind as one and the same, but since they're distinct, Change and Move seem the best choices to conflate instead. And yeah, I do think four of the Shards being aligned/mirroring the Intents of the Dawnshards could work thematically because we still don't know how the Dawnshards came about, but if they are external to Adonalsium....as they seem to be, considering they exist on post-Shattering and weren't also destroyed or shattered like he himself was.....well, think about how the Dawnshards need to find something within human hosts to latch on to, the way Hoid told Sigzil that the power of the Exist Dawnshard "liked him" - not in a way denoting sentience but on a cosmere-equivalent atomic level it seemed to resonate with Sigzil - that to me suggests that Adonalsium, even being God, also needed to have something inside him that resonated with each of the Dawnshards in order to use them to create.....and so the sixteen Shards could be the 12 Shards that correspond with each of these Archetypal figures plus the 4 Shards that correspond with each of the Dawnshards and comprise the parts of Adonalsium that resonated with them, allowing him to use the Dawnshards to create. I like that, it could definitely be the key here. My guesses were I try to match up the Shards to this.... 1) Whimsy - the Jester 2) Valor - the Hero 3) Autonomy - the Everyman 4) Dominion - the Ruler 5) Devotion - the Lover 6) Reason - the Sage plus 13) Honor - Connect 14) Preservation - Exist 15) Cultivation - Change (the idea of change as a journey definitely fits Cultivation) 16) Ruin - Weigh/Leave A Mark (because entropy is a natural part of existence and the idea that without death or an end to things, existence or life has less meaning, perhaps?) Invention? Virtuosity? Endowment? Mercy? Odium? Ambition? Edited January 9, 2025 by TheoreticalMagic 1
Dofurion Posted January 9, 2025 Posted January 9, 2025 It may be a bit premature but… What if we can adjust this version to the Aethers?
Jensen Posted January 9, 2025 Posted January 9, 2025 (edited) I like this theory, as the Shards are meant to symbolize some kind of divine (or unifying) attribute as well as mundane human types. Searching around I found this mandala painted by Jung that seems kind of familiar? (source: Carl Jung - Mandala) On 1/8/2025 at 3:44 AM, TheoreticalMagic said: If I'm on to anything with these four Primary Archetypes being the Four Aspects of Adonalsium, I'd argue that each of the 12 Archetypal Figures in some way relate to one of the Shards in the vein of each being a manifestation of the Persona, the Shadow, the Anima/Animus or the Self....the sticking point is that leaves four Shards left over, which is what I'm still trying to work out....if maybe four of the Shards are more of a gestalt or distillation....idk, there's something I'm missing here. But I also think there's definitely something to this, especially when you match up the idea of the four Dawnshards as correlating to the chart below....like I don't think its a coincidence that there are sixteen spaces on that chart, in total. Maybe the reason we have so much trouble grouping sixteen Shards is because they don't fall into a unilateral table, but rather the below grouping, with four of them having a different relationship to the other twelve, who are more unilaterally equidistant?) This lines up with a picture I made four years ago when it was revealed that the Cosmere logo and the Dawnshard mural follows the same fundamental principles. This division sort of reminds me of your archetype chart, with four more central Shards surrounded by 12 external Shards, three for each central one. Quote montezuma300 I couldn't help but think about the logo for the Cosmere when I read the description of the mural [in Dawnshard]. Is the Cosmere logo related to it? Brandon Sanderson More that the Cosmere logo was built using some same fundamental principles. But yes, they are related. Footnote: The Cosmere logo can be found here. Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 9, 2020) Edited January 9, 2025 by Jensen 1
Irish Truthwatcher Posted January 9, 2025 Posted January 9, 2025 8 hours ago, TheoreticalMagic said: Invention? Virtuosity? Endowment? Mercy? Odium? Ambition? From what we know I would say Endowment may embody the caregiver, seems to align fairly well with its intent. Invention also lines up fairly well with the Creator, but an argument could be made for Virtuosity here as well, especially considering the Y in CYM = Iriali theory 1
Gildedorca Posted January 23, 2025 Posted January 23, 2025 (edited) This makes a lot of sense, especially if Brandon is aware of and versed in these archetypes. Perhaps he just added an extra four because the math worked better. However, it's still imperfect alignment. For example, is Preservation more 'providing structure' or 'EXIST'. If anything, he likely borrowed from this, but came up with his own archetypes. What's more interesting are the shadow archetypes- almost akin to anti-light- and there are are a few that match our Shards. The jester becomes a hater and the ruler becomes a tyrant. Or innovation and artistry become... destruction and Ruin. Playin with the diagram you've shared... "Provide Structure" = ¿guide? Endowment- Service/Caregiver/Slave Dominion- Control/Ruler/Tyrant Invention- Innovation/Artist/Destroyer Preservation "Spiritual Journey" = ¿believe? Mercy- Innocent/Safety/Victim Reason- Knowledge/Sage/Elitist Autonomy- Freedom/Explorer/Raider Cultivation "Connect to Others" = EXIST Devotion- Intimacy/ Lover/Seducer Odium- Pleasure/Jester/Hater Virtuosity- Belonging/ Everyman/Follower Honor "Leave a Mark" = CHANGE Ambition- Liberation/Outlaw/Criminal Whimsy- Power/Magician/Trickster Valor- Mastery/Hero/Villan Ruin Edited January 23, 2025 by Gildedorca swap Honor and Preservation
Recommended Posts