The loss of mythology

[DracostarA]

One thing I haven't heard about discussed is how the loss of mythology and major cultural differences as we veer into Shardic/Cosmere focus can affect the feeling of 'realness' in Roshar. Of the top of my head things like:

• Elithanathile, the tenth name of the Almighty
• The 10 Fools
• The Silver Cities
• The Lifebrother mentioned by Szeth
• The mystery of Dawnsingers/Voidbringers

Things like that added to the mystery and feeling of Roshar as a world feeling more lived in in tWoK and WoR. As we get some of the answers, it does demystify past events, but I feel these anachronisms are discussed fewer and fewer. I think a lot of these could be mentioned more and highlight cultural differences in order to give characters/places a feeling of their own, whereas it seemed a lot of characters spoke with the same/similar voice.

As an aside, it felt like a lot of characters who reveal ways of the past, like the Heralds and Fused seem to have no mythology or cultural traditions of their own - it felt very much like "this is how it was, this is what we did" and I'd expect the Singers and Ashynites to have cultural norms and discrepancies of their own.

Sorry it might have been rambling, but I do think losing out on a lot of this in favour of reveals/big changes might be one reason Roshar feels more modern and characters feel less distinct than they did once upon a time.

[Sedside she/her]

I'd like to add to the list.

1. All the things about the Calling and Devotaries, that was so widely discussed in WoK, especially Shallan's chapters.
2. Tranquiline Halls and stuff. Now everyone just knows it's Ashyn and abruptly stopped calling it like that and believing in it.
3. What about Purelake and their Wun Makak / Nu Ralik religion? It was no space for it in the last two books and it feels forgotten, maybe there will be something about it in back half.

Also, I'd say that the introduction of gods PoVs played it's role too. They've lost their charm as mysterious incomprehensible creatures, they are just ordinary characters (rather stupid I'd say) with superpowers.

[VirtuousTraveller]

I agree with this.  Anything to do with Vorinism, the church, and the Hierocracy slowly drifted further and further away - and that’s a real shame because that’s the kind of world building I find so fascinating (and Brandon did such a great job introducing in earlier books).  

Then we get this line in one of the epitaphs:

Quote

Excerpt used at his tribunal, in absentia—for the appeal filed on his behalf by supporters after his excommunication from the Vorin church—as evidence of continued heresy.

-Chapter 77

How can a person be excommunicated?  Doesn’t that imply some kind of church authority?  I thought the church lost that kind of authority after the war of loss.  A tribunal?  This implies some cool stuff, but doesn’t give us much to understand in context of Roshar’s worldbuilding/mythology

[Treamayne]

9 minutes ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

How can a person be excommunicated?  Doesn’t that imply some kind of church authority?

The Excommunication was on-Screen in Oathbringer. Ch 100:

Spoiler

Navani gestured toward the scribes. For the first time, Dalinar noticed that several among them wore the short beards of ardents. But those blue robes? What were those?

Curates, he thought, from the Holy Enclave in Valath. Technically, Dalinar himself was a head of the Vorin religion—but in practice, the curates guided church doctrine. The staves they bore were wound with gemstones, more ornate than he’d expected. Hadn’t most of that pomp been done away with at the fall of the Hierocracy?

“Dalinar Kholin!” one said, stepping forward. He was young for an ardentia leader, perhaps in his early forties. His square beard was streaked with a few lines of grey.

“I am he,” Dalinar said, shrugging off Navani’s touch to his shoulder. “If you would speak with me, let us retire to a place more private—”

“Dalinar Kholin,” the ardent said, louder. “The council of curates declares you a heretic. We cannot tolerate your insistence that the Almighty is not God. You are hereby proclaimed excommunicate and anathema.”

“You have no right—”

“We have every right! The ardents must watch the lighteyes so that you steer your subjects well. That is still our duty, as outlined in the Covenants of Theocracy, witnessed for centuries! Did you really think we would ignore what you’ve been preaching?”

Dalinar gritted his teeth as the stupid ardent began outlining Dalinar’s heresies one by one, demanding that he deny them. The man stepped forward, close enough now that Dalinar could smell his breath.

The Thrill stirred, sensing a fight. Sensing blood.

I’m going to kill him, a part of Dalinar thought. I have to run now, or I will kill this man. It was as clear to him as the sun’s light.

So he ran.

Hope that helps

[MagicMaggot]

On the mythology issue I do have some hope that we might get back into that again in the later half, at least for a time. Compared to the magic city of Urithiru sending out superhero knights to Roshar's grand coalition of nations and fighting armies led by magic demons from hell, fighting some natives on the Shattered Plains and princedom politics are kind of small scale. That left more room for cultural details within the first books than the later ones, where we had cultures mixing in an emergency situation. 

Well, for book 6 the emergency is kind of gone. Yes, there is still oppression to deal with, and long-term goals to work on, but the borders are fixed until further notice, and without portals and magic knights, and with no ticking clock for the moment, local cultures, religions and politics might have more relevance again. If there ever is a time within the series to slow down and marvel at the strange world of Roshar and its history again, maybe with some characters that haven't gone all cosmeropolitan in Urithiru, I think that would be it.

That said, a lot of it will of course be irreclaimable. I mean... we're dealing with pov gods and heralds now, and discussing enlightenment philosophy. That's some progress that can't really be stopped. It can be more or less destructive, depending on how it is done, though. 

Edited January 7, 2025 by MagicMaggot

[VirtuousTraveller]

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

The Excommunication was on-Screen in Oathbringer. Ch 100:

  Hide contents

Navani gestured toward the scribes. For the first time, Dalinar noticed that several among them wore the short beards of ardents. But those blue robes? What were those?

Curates, he thought, from the Holy Enclave in Valath. Technically, Dalinar himself was a head of the Vorin religion—but in practice, the curates guided church doctrine. The staves they bore were wound with gemstones, more ornate than he’d expected. Hadn’t most of that pomp been done away with at the fall of the Hierocracy?

“Dalinar Kholin!” one said, stepping forward. He was young for an ardentia leader, perhaps in his early forties. His square beard was streaked with a few lines of grey.

“I am he,” Dalinar said, shrugging off Navani’s touch to his shoulder. “If you would speak with me, let us retire to a place more private—”

“Dalinar Kholin,” the ardent said, louder. “The council of curates declares you a heretic. We cannot tolerate your insistence that the Almighty is not God. You are hereby proclaimed excommunicate and anathema.”

“You have no right—”

“We have every right! The ardents must watch the lighteyes so that you steer your subjects well. That is still our duty, as outlined in the Covenants of Theocracy, witnessed for centuries! Did you really think we would ignore what you’ve been preaching?”

Dalinar gritted his teeth as the stupid ardent began outlining Dalinar’s heresies one by one, demanding that he deny them. The man stepped forward, close enough now that Dalinar could smell his breath.

The Thrill stirred, sensing a fight. Sensing blood.

I’m going to kill him, a part of Dalinar thought. I have to run now, or I will kill this man. It was as clear to him as the sun’s light.

So he ran.

Hope that helps

Thanks for the refresher on this scene @Treamayne!   It helps in providing another really interesting snippet of religious culture on Roshar, but it still leaves me wanting more!

[Treamayne]

29 minutes ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

Thanks for the refresher on this scene @Treamayne! 

  It helps in providing another really interesting snippet of religious culture on Roshar, but it still leaves me wanting more!

No worries. Personally, I kinda like Vorinism's Journey through the first arc. Sanderson has purposely played with the interactions of religion, people, and culture though most Cosmere Stories:

Spoiler

• In Elantris - the concept of weaponized religion was central - since the premise was "what if the Vikings conquered through Religion" as evoked by the Derethi Empire centered in Fjorden
  • Further expanded by showing how competing splinters of Shu-Keseg (Shu-Korath and Shu-Dereth) had divergent evolutions based on the culture that appropriated the religion
• In Warbreaker it is the Five Visions growing into Austrism and the Iridescent Tones and how that was changed by understanding (or lack thereof) of BioChromatic Breath and a desire to embrace or eshew Nalthis' Manifestation of Investiture
• On Scadrial it is TLR's false Ministry, created solely to help him conquer and control the continent; and compared to the original Terris Religion (partially proven true by events with Preservation and Ruin)
  • Which also explores the Pre-Ascention religions of old-Scadrial and how they Preserved truth for the Hero
  • And explored a new-Religion in developement in the Church of the Survivor
• The Era 2 expands this with Sliverism and how a new-bold-empoweing Survivorism became the crusted-stagnant religion of conservative doctrine
• etc.

So, to me, Vorinism's "journey" in the front half is the parallel to the Terris religion. Where HoA showed us "proving" what was right in the Kandra's original religion (and how that affected the story) - in SA Arc 1 we see what happens when a relgiion is "proven false" (or at least an incomplete understanding of those things on which it was founded)  and how that affected the story and characters. 

I don't really mind the dwindling Vorinist references in books 4-5, because, to me, it was indicative of the story being told. Vorinsim was at it's highest during the Heirocracy (at least in populations and converts) and is lowest after the refounding of the Knights because it refuses and fails to adapt. It wants people to "follow dogma because we have always followed dogma" which is a false premise.

Modern Vorinism is a corruption of prior beliefs taken to an extreme and, ultimately, unsupportable unless they can evolve with the world, people, and cultures. 

I look forward to Sanderson's showing us the result of 10 years for that theology to adapt or die to the new normal. 

 

Edited January 7, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[VirtuousTraveller]

10 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

No worries. Personally, I kinda like Vorinism's Journey through the first arc. Sanderson has purposely played with the interactions of religion, people, and culture though most Cosmere Stories.

Oh I 1000% agree with you - that's why I want more of this!  I think it would have made for an interesting Interlude in RoW or WaT to show church leadership and how they are responding to all the changes happening in the world.  But I can't fault that as a writing "error" - just something I would prefer more of because I think Brandon has done a great job incorporating these interactions so well to this point.

[Aredor]

52 minutes ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

Oh I 1000% agree with you - that's why I want more of this!  I think it would have made for an interesting Interlude in RoW or WaT to show church leadership and how they are responding to all the changes happening in the world.  But I can't fault that as a writing "error" - just something I would prefer more of because I think Brandon has done a great job incorporating these interactions so well to this point.

Exactly! Like, imagine if instead of that awful Adin interlude in RoW, we had gotten an interlude about the Vorin Church. Although, don't they all live in Jah Keved? 

I guess that's the issue: we don't know! I agree that we need more regarding religion in the back half- it's something that we lost out on, with really only Navani thinking about it with any frequency. I think that the main thing that separates these writings from other main fantasy writings is the use of religion in worldbuilding. Wheel of Time/ LoTR both didn't have religion, and I think that having it in the story improves the sense of immersion and of culture that we can get through a world. Definitely something I'd love to see more of!

[Returned he/him]

I agree that the mythos is being lost, but I always expected that. You can't live in the legends, get explanations about the true state of everything physical and metaphysical, and still have the mythology be intact. A lot of characters know the true state of reality at this point, though to varying degrees. Even if the Heralds had been totally ignorant of Shards, the realms, etc. back on Ashyn and had their on myths or beliefs, how much of that would remain relevant (or even memorable) once they met with Tanavast and directly accessed his power? What sort of conversation or event would highlight that information in a way relevant to things happening in the books now?

The big thing I've noticed about religion in Cosmere books is that it generally exists in two or three layers:

1. Cosmere-aware individuals: these are more or less correct about the fundamental nature of reality, the Shards, etc. They don't seem have a religion in the same sense we don't have a religion about electricity: we know what it is and how it works, for the most part, and there isn't much room for mystery or mysticism about it. There are few such people.
2. Professional clergy: these are the Obligators, Ardents, Court of Gods attendants, etc. They are generally true believers, but their belief is broadly incorrect. They believe in features of reality that aren't accurate and those features are generally contrived by people from the first group. There is a modest amount of these but they occupy a strange spot, narratively. Their false beliefs and professional/devout adherence to those beliefs keep them from playing as meaningful a role in the stories as those in groups one and three.
3. Normals: these are everyday people, at least at first, with no special knowledge of the Cosmere nor the nature of reality. They may or may not believe in a religion, but the religions in the Cosmere books don't really have much for them to do. In Mistborn era 1 and Stormlight they essentially pay people to do religion for them (which is a large part of their religious obligations) and otherwise their religions are sort of inert in terms of day-to-day interactions. There are a ton of these people. For us readers this group can be tricky because we will know if their beliefs are true or not, at least most of the time. So a lot of detail about those beliefs is superfluous unless it directly interacts with the story, which shifts a lot of that information into the hands of group two. Notably, Warbreaker did some interesting (to me) things in blending groups two and three.

I think of it a lot like Wheel of Time: there were no competing religions because everyone knew, essentially, the fundamental nature of the universe. They were all Wheelists, because the Wheel was actually the true thing and its nature was correctly understood by basically everyone, so "religion" in the way that we think of it didn't quite apply or make sense. Most of the Cosmere's major characters end up in group one, and there is little space (narratively and in pages) to focus on what has been mostly relegated to group two.

Edited January 7, 2025 by Returned

[RedBlue]

32 minutes ago, Returned said:

Cosmere-aware individuals: these are more or less correct about the fundamental nature of reality, the Shards, etc. They don't seem have a religion in the same sense we don't have a religion about electricity: we know what it is and how it works, for the most part, and there isn't much room for mystery or mysticism about it. There are few such people.

I don’t think this is quite true. We do see some cosmere-aware people who seem totally irreligious, but other cosmere-aware people absolutely have religious beliefs.

Dalinar, who definitely counts as cosmere-aware by the end of his arc, is very much a liberal theist. He’s taken the parts of Vorinism he finds most important and adapted them so that they no longer contradict the factual information he has about the cosmere, such as the nature of Shards.

Navani is also cosmere-aware by this point, and she still holds to traditional Vorin practices like burning glyphwards. The contradiction between her religious practices and her knowledge of real cosmere mechanics doesn’t bother her because she just partitions off the religious stuff in her mind so that it retains its mysticism.

Also, Wit has dropped hints (the comment that he will ‘wish’ during the Contest, his opinions about hope) that he believes in some form of spirituality.

[Returned he/him]

31 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

I don’t think this is quite true. We do see some cosmere-aware people who seem totally irreligious, but other cosmere-aware people absolutely have religious beliefs.

Dalinar, who definitely counts as cosmere-aware by the end of his arc, is very much a liberal theist. He’s taken the parts of Vorinism he finds most important and adapted them so that they no longer contradict the factual information he has about the cosmere, such as the nature of Shards.

Navani is also cosmere-aware by this point, and she still holds to traditional Vorin practices like burning glyphwards. The contradiction between her religious practices and her knowledge of real cosmere mechanics doesn’t bother her because she just partitions off the religious stuff in her mind so that it retains its mysticism.

Also, Wit has dropped hints (the comment that he will ‘wish’ during the Contest, his opinions about hope) that he believes in some form of spirituality.

I think it would be a stretch to call Dalinar "religious" after Oathbringer. He has a very vague belief that a supreme deity with no particular properties exists, and that's about it. He's abandoned everything about Vorinism: the Callings and Glories, the roles/value of the Ardents, the theological model of the universe, the idea that morality and ethics flow directly from a divine will, etc. But I concede that you are correct with this example: Dalinar clearly does retain a religious belief despite his Cosmere-awareness, so that's at least one from that group.

Navani's religious practices on screen seem limited entirely to drawing and burning glyphwards, though of course that's not exhaustive as she clearly was a devout Vorin at least up to some point. The glyphward burning itself seemed to mostly be before she became aware of much about the Cosmere outside of Dalinar's "god is dead" pronouncements, and had a strong habitual/"just in case" feeling to me. I might be misremembering some details. Do we have any indications, especially after her bonding the Sibling, that she retains any Vorin beliefs and practices outside of the glyphwards, or at all after Rhythm of War? If not, do we have any indications of some other religious belief she's adopted or developed? We know so much less about her beliefs and inner life compared with Dalinar's, so I'm willing to say that we don't know the state of her religious beliefs at present. Maybe she still has them, maybe not.

As for Wit, "spiritual" is underdefined for the Cosmere, I think. I'm not sure we know enough about Hoid or his thoughts to render an opinion on his religiosity (I don't think that I do, at any rate), but I wouldn't describe a comment that he will wish for something or having ideas about hope as anywhere near what I would describe as having a religion. I'll call Hoid an unknown with regard to religious beliefs, but feel comfortable saying that he's never expressed a religious belief that he actually holds. (Similar to Navani above, my memory might be missing items here, especially for Wind and Truth).

So perhaps I should revise my description in group one: people in this group generally seem not to have any religious beliefs, at least as represented on the page so far, with an explicit exception for Dalinar. Navani might as well, though it's not clear that she does. For all the rest, I think it works well as originally described.

Edited January 7, 2025 by Returned

[Treamayne]

24 minutes ago, Returned said:

Do we have any indications, especially after her bonding the Sibling, that she retains any Vorin beliefs and practices outside of the glyphwards, or at all after Rhythm of War? If not, do we have any indications of some other religious belief she's adopted or developed?

It's not after her bond with the Sibling (especially since there was not much screen-time after the bond and before going to the SR in WaT), but we have this in RoW right before the bond - Ch 102:

Spoiler

Navani licked her lips. “I need a candle, please. For burning prayers.”

Remarkably, she fetched it. Taking the candle, shivering, Navani cupped the flame and walked to her pallet. There, she knelt and began burning her glyphwards one at a time.

If there was a God, if the Almighty was still out there somewhere, had he created Moash? Why? Why bring such a thing into the world?

Please, she thought, begging as a ward shriveled, her prayers casting smoke into the air. Please. Tell me what to do. Show me something. Let me know you’re there.

As the last prayer drifted toward the Tranquiline Halls, she sat back on her heels, numb, wanting to huddle down and forget about her problems. When she moved to do so, however, in the candlelight she caught sight of something glittering amid the wreckage of her desk. As if in a trance, Navani rose and walked over. The guard wasn’t looking.

Navani brushed aside ash to find a metal dagger with a diamond affixed to the pommel. She stared at it, confused. It had exploded, hadn’t it?

No, this is the second one. The one Raboniel used to kill her daughter. She tossed it aside, as if hating it, once the deed was done.

A precious, priceless weapon, and the Fused had discarded it. 

 

Edited January 7, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Returned he/him]

17 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

If there was a God, if the Almighty was still out there somewhere, had he created Moash? Why? Why bring such a thing into the world?

Please, she thought, begging as a ward shriveled, her prayers casting smoke into the air. Please. Tell me what to do. Show me something. Let me know you’re there.

That's good enough for me-- the direct petition is much stronger than the "just in case" that I had vaguely (mis)remembered, if not quite a definitive indication of belief. I'd count Navani as sufficiently Cosmere-aware at that point to fall into my group one. So that's two religious characters who fit there. I wonder if there are more and we just haven't gotten the direct observation of them to know it yet. It's really only now that we know enough about the Cosmere for it to make sense that their perspectives be clearly presented like this.

Does anyone remember any passages that would suggest group one members that have a religious aspect to them?

Edited January 7, 2025 by Returned

[Treamayne]

9 minutes ago, Returned said:

Does anyone remember any passages that would suggest group one members that have a religious aspect to them?

Nazh, and his Threnodite beliefs (maybe). It's a short snippit, but may be more indicitive as things progress:

M:SH P3 Ch 2:

Spoiler

“One doesn’t merely decide to become a shadow!” the man exclaimed. He had a faintly strange accent, one Kelsier couldn’t place. “It’s an important rite! With requirements and traditions. This . . . this is . . .” He threw his hands into the air. “This is a bother.”

 

Edited January 7, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[RedBlue]

WaT chapter 31 (Navani is talking to Gav, who has just commented that the tower is alive):

Quote

“All things are,” she said. “Whether it’s the cup you drink from, the home you live in, or the air you breathe. All of it is part of this world given us by the Almighty, and everything in this world is alive. It is one of the ways we know God loves us.”
And surely He did. Even if the person who had held the power was dead, that was merely an avatar, a Vessel—not God. It was that Vessel Dalinar hoped to replace. If he did, would he then return to conventional belief as she hoped? His new ways, new teachings, weren’t strictly blasphemous, but things about them did make her uncomfortable.

To my mind, this is fairly definitive. Navani still has faith in a deity which she calls the Almighty, and her beliefs about that deity conform to conventional Vorin teachings, at least in Navani’s opinion.

WaT chapter 125 (Wit is talking to Navani about what they will do during the Contest):

Quote

Compared to the might of a Shard of Adonalsium, whatever tricks I might know … well, they’re like sparks before the power of the sun. There is nothing you, I, the Stormfather, or the Sibling can do.”

“So …”

“So we wait,” Wit said, his eyes seeming hollow. “You should pray. I will wish. Together we will hope that the man we have all chosen as our champion can resist whoever Odium chooses to be his.

I grant that this is much more vague than my other examples of Dalinar and Navani, but this use of the word ‘wish,’ especially how the sentence structure frames it as parallel to Navani’s prayer, does not strike me as secular. That’s why I interpreted it as hinting at some sort of spiritual belief.

Even if we agree to disagree about Wit, that leaves Dalinar and Navani as counter-examples to @Returned’s ‘group 1.’ I think we need a fourth, separate ‘group’ for individuals who are cosmere-aware but have some level of religious or spiritual belief that accommodates for this awareness.

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, RedBlue said:

Even if we agree to disagree about Wit, that leaves Dalinar and Navani as counter-examples to @Returned’s ‘group 1.’ I think we need a fourth, separate ‘group’ for individuals who are cosmere-aware but have some level of religious or spiritual belief that accommodates for this awareness.

Agnostic Theism may apply - those, like Dalinar, that believe in a Diety - but do not accept Shards as being that Diety; as well as those that accept the Realmatic Nature of the Cosmere, but still ascribe to some form of Theism?

[NotLiamRoss He/Him]

19 hours ago, RedBlue said:

“So we wait,” Wit said, his eyes seeming hollow. “You should pray. I will wish. Together we will hope that the man we have all chosen as our champion can resist whoever Odium chooses to be his.

19 hours ago, RedBlue said:

I grant that this is much more vague than my other examples of Dalinar and Navani, but this use of the word ‘wish,’ especially how the sentence structure frames it as parallel to Navani’s prayer, does not strike me as secular. That’s why I interpreted it as hinting at some sort of spiritual belief.

Personally, my reading of this is that he is placing wishing in direct opposition to prayer. "All you religious people should pray, I can't as I'm not religious, so I will wish, a way of hoping for something that doesn't require the intervention or attention of an outside force". But I suppose that's up for interpretation. Non-religious people can certainly still be hopeful without the need to be spiritual. Either way, I think your interpretation is valid, but that's just my interpretation looking over that passage as a non-religious person.