Nohadon at the end? Who was he?

[Maeldun]

Very quick. One of the things that got me thinking at the end (being Nohadon baking bread) was if he was indeed who he said he was. 

The fact that he was aware of Dalinar taking Honor. The whole vibe. The "you are not short of wit" line... does not seem to me to be either Dalinar's subconscious or Nohadon from the past. 

Honor is a kid in that vision, while Nohadon appears to be old. The entity that prevents Retaliation from taking Dalinar seems to be the same person, doesn't it?

First post so sorry for the brevity of it haha

Edited January 5, 2025 by Maeldun

[DSCrankshaw]

A common theory is that the Nohadon Dalinar spoke to is Adonalsium, the god who was Shattered ten thousand years ago by the likes of Tanner, Rayse, and Koravellium Avast, whose Shards they took up to become lesser gods.

My personal theory is that the Iriali religion about everyone being pieces of the One experiencing itself, Wit's claim that God lived in people's hearts, and Dalinar's belief in the God Beyond are all essentially correct. I think every mortal soul in the Cosmere bears a piece of Adonalsium, a splinter from his Shattering, and as people die and their souls go to the Beyond, those pieces are gathering, bringing with them the experiences of the people whose lives they shared, coalescing into a reformed Adonalsium. An alternative theory is that those souls are the pieces of Adonalsium, but I suspect that it's more like the Roman concept of the genius (a personal guardian spirit who kinda-sorta was the person), or the musicspren cohabiting with Rhyshadium: sharing their lives, without being them.

When someone talks to the dead, like Dalinar to Nohadon, or Kaladin to Tien, is that actually the person's soul, who at the very least has a Connection to Adonalsium and access to much that person wouldn't have known in life, or is it the piece of Adonalsium that shared their life, or perhaps Adonalsium remembering being that person? That I don't know the answer to.

[alder24]

12 hours ago, Maeldun said:

Very quick. One of the things that got me thinking at the end (being Nohadon baking bread) was if he was indeed who he said he was. 

The fact that he was aware of Dalinar taking Honor. The whole vibe. The "you are not short of wit" line... does not seem to me to be either Dalinar's subconscious or Nohadon from the past. 

Honor is a kid in that vision, while Nohadon appears to be old. The entity that prevents Retaliation from taking Dalinar seems to be the same person, doesn't it?

First post so sorry for the brevity of it haha

I believe that it's just a spiritual remnant of Nohadon that is Connected to Dalinar because of how important the Way of Kings and Nohadon's life was to him. Nohadon is dead, both Tanavast and Rayse confirmed it. When somebody dies, there is a kind of corpse left behind in the Spiritual Realm and in the Spiritual Realm investiture can take the shape and mind of that leftover Spirit Web and create visions like Dalinar saw. I don't believe that Nohadon was someone else like Adonalsium, the 4th Shard or any theory like this, I think he's dead and what Dalinar experience is just an effect of his strong Connection to Nohadon and Spiritual Realm shenanigans.

Spoiler

Argent

Is death in the Cosmere a two-stage process? It seems to me like (under normal circumstances) the body dies first, sending the mind fully in the Cognitive Realm; the soul, presumably, remains in the Spiritual for the entire process. I am a little unclear on what happens after that though - what is it that passes into the Beyond, just the mind? Does the soul / spiritual aspect / Spiritweb just kind of... break down in the Spiritual Realm, turn into free iInvestiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. It's a two stage process, and most of what you said is correct. The odd thing is, though, that the Spiritweb doesn't completely break down (just like your body doesn't immediately break down.) Even after a long time, there's a record of that Spiritweb in the Spiritual Realm.

Oversleep

Wait wait wait. If there is a "corpse" of Spiritweb (so to speak) and actual, physical corpse is also there... Could it be still viable for Hemalurgy? Could it be still viable for Hemalurgy if you really know what you're doing and have some useful powers (manipulating Connection comes to mind)?

Could you patch the remnants of the Spiritweb and staple it to the body and end up with some zombie-zombie Lifeless? You'd still need to give it a mind but I figure Awakening is just doing that?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Stormlight Three Update #6 (Feb. 5, 2017)

 

Spoiler

Forger (paraphrased)

In Stormlight 5, we know they are looking for Ba-Ado-Mishram and some of it will take place in the Spiritual Realm, where we know that time is odd and somewhat condensed. Does that mean that we could have an interaction with Lopen and Wayne?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It could be possible. But it would be an imitation, like a puppet. That'd be a bad idea, crossing the streams like that.

Forger (paraphrased)

So the same with someone like Elend?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yeah, so the Spiritual Realm would be trying to create them. Making them what they should be, but it wouldn't be them. Like the visions. You could interact with them, but it wouldn't be them.

Forger (paraphrased)

So the SR is using raw investiture to create them?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yep.

Forger (paraphrased)

So since they are like the visions, could one replay them over and over?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They could.

FanX 2024 (Sept. 28, 2024)

 

Spoiler

dIvorrap

Was really Evi the voice that Dalinar heard when he opened Honor's perpendicularity?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO. (You knew it was coming.)

So here's the thing--I'm never going to confirm or deny anything from Beyond the Spiritual Realm. Because it is unfair for me to do so. I believe there is an afterlife in our world, while others (quite rationally) conclude there is not.

The Cosmere has systems in place for ghosts and things to be real, yes, but I want it to always be possible for intelligent people to disagree about things like Evi's voice. Spiritual Connection creates visions in the Cosmere that are quite realistic (like all the ones Dalinar experienced.)

What Dalinar heard here could very rationally be a version of such a vision. That's what the Death Rattles are, for example.

Or, it could be his dead wife speaking to him from beyond the grave. Navani would say that's what it is; Jasnah would say it's the first. I try very hard (despite my personal biases) to not undercut the viewpoint of someone who doesn't believe in an afterlife. It is vital to me that the author not sweep in and say, "Yeah, it's cool some characters are Atheists at all who doesn't believe in an afterlife...but nudge nudge, we both know there is one."

The existence of an afterlife (not Cognitive Shadow style, but in the Beyond) in the cosmere is subject to your own personal interpretation. Everything that happens like this CAN be explained by Realmatic Theory, with very valid examples from the books.

General Reddit 2020 (June 5, 2020)

 

Spoiler

Gordon Kelsch

Can Dalinar permanently bring someone back from the Spiritual Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

No. In fact, whether or not the voices he is hearing are legitimately voices from Beyond the Spiritual Realm, or if they're a manifestation much like the visions that the Stormfather creates, where Dalinar's desire for certain things is basically creating... So when Dalinar goes into the visions, what's going on there is: these are not people with autonomy that he is interacting with. These are Investiture manifesting a basic AI that is able to adapt, cause Investiture kind of can do this.

Dalinar would argue, "Yes, that's the case except for when I actually met Nohadon. That character felt different, that felt like the real Nohadon stretching through the Spiritual Realm and actually interacting." Jasnah would say, "No, that's because, Dalinar, you have such, in your mind, a hope and desire to see Nohadon, he's this mythological figure in your head, that basically the Stormfather's knowledge of who he actually was was creating this much more animated puppet that was more like actually how Nohadon was, but was based on knowledge of the spren and the Investiture that you're interacting with." And Dalinar would say, "I heard Evi's voice." Jasnah would say, "You heard the Investiture coming to life and speaking with her voice the things you needed to hear. And it wasn't that the Stormfather was like, 'He needs to hear this, I'm going to create this fake.' But it's instead your relationship with this magical force that does take on life of its own, manifesting this thing." Which one it is, I do not answer. Both are, I consider, equally valid interpretations of the text, and equally valid interpretations of the magic system.

Once someone is passed into the Beyond, there is no force that can bring them back, according to people's understanding of the magic system. There is even the argument that Cognitive Shadows are not the person. That the Cognitive Shadow is indeed a spren with the memories and an imprint of the person's personality that becomes self aware and continued on living that person. It's kind of the same question that arises in Star Trek. When you are ripped apart and rebuilt piece by piece with the transporter, some people in Star Trek do not believe you are becoming the same person again. You are then a different individual who has been cloned from the person and had the memories attached. Functionally, in the narrative, for the reader, it's the same. Is it the same soul or not? That question is answered differently by different people in the Cosmere. There are equally valid interpretations from the reader. You get to decide, basically. You get to decide, just like if there's a story where a person's brain is uploaded to a computer, you get to decide: is that the same person? Because we can't do that, we don't know. Is that the exact same individual, or is that a computer simulation of that person, where the person has died? That's what a Cognitive Shadow essentially is, but using Cosmere physics instead of theoretical science fiction physics.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020)

 

12 hours ago, Maeldun said:

The entity that prevents Retaliation from taking Dalinar seems to be the same person, doesn't it?

Dalinar faded into the Beyond, which is the ultimate confirmation that a character is dead in Cosmere and not even Shards can reach into the Beyond. The book was clear about this. That someone else the powers referred to was most likely the God Beyond (who we don't know and will never know if he exists at all) in whom Dalinar believed in recent books. WaT ch 145:

Quote

Dalinar’s soul slipped away from him. Stretched. And vanished into the Beyond. Taravangian scrambled to hold it, but like water through fingers, he could not.

But there are many theories about who that was - Adonalsium, the 4th Shard or some other entities. I'm not convinced by them. In my opinion the book clearly stated he faded into the Beyond and that's it.

[Maeldun]

My point is that the Nohadon in that Chapter appeared to be very not-like-Nohadon-at-all. At least in the way it was presented in the visions.

And Nohadon-at-the-end appeared to be very aware of what was currently happening. This is why I do believe that it was likely Adonalsium (or a cognitive shadow of him) that he was talking to. The fact that Nohadon-at-the-end appeared to be aware of Dalinar's godhood, the fact that he recognized HONOR as "young" and "recently sentient" and overall, the language that he used, makes me believe that it was Adonalsium.

The Fourth Shard, I don't think so. But who would have the power to drag Dalinar/Honor into a vision at that very moment? At least an entity of some power, I believe.

[Nitpicking]

23 hours ago, Maeldun said:

My point is that the Nohadon in that Chapter appeared to be very not-like-Nohadon-at-all. At least in the way it was presented in the visions.

And Nohadon-at-the-end appeared to be very aware of what was currently happening. This is why I do believe that it was likely Adonalsium (or a cognitive shadow of him) that he was talking to. The fact that Nohadon-at-the-end appeared to be aware of Dalinar's godhood, the fact that he recognized HONOR as "young" and "recently sentient" and overall, the language that he used, makes me believe that it was Adonalsium.

The Fourth Shard, I don't think so. But who would have the power to drag Dalinar/Honor into a vision at that very moment? At least an entity of some power, I believe.

I said it before and I'll repeat myself. Frost.

Frost is older than the Shattering. Dragons are known to have the ability to communicate across the Cosmere--Hoid mentions it in WaT.

[Letryx13]

It's one of three things, if I had to guess.  It's either some sort of remnant of Nohadon's spirit, kind of like a ghost, or Adolnasium, or some combination of the two  

I'm honestly not sure which I'd rather it be.  Nohadon had the connection to Dalinar through The Way of Kings, but considering how he managed to intervene between Dalinar and Taravangian during the contest, that seems like a lot more than such a remnant should be capable of.  

I would have thought it was just Adolnasium, using Nohadon as a figure Dalinar would trust, but that doesn't quite fit either.  This is definitely the same being that Dalinar spoke to in Oathbringer, and that one spoke as the person who had lived Nohadon's life. He specifically said that he tried and failed to conquer the world, which led him down a different path.

So I'm left to conclude that it was some combination of Nohadon and Adolnasium.  Perhaps it was Adolnasium that pulled Dalinar into the vision and Nohadon that did the talking? I'm not sure. But I'd be willing to wager that we'll see something similar happen to other characters in the future. Perhaps one of Dalinar's sons will need his guidance in a moment of internal conflict.

[BondNahelBond]

One question that came to mind just now for me after my 2nd read through of WaT is, if the shards impart memory of their power’s history to their vessel, did the individual powers’ memories extend to before the shattering or do they begin at the shattering?

Edited June 2, 2025 by BondNahelBond
Typo

[Returned he/him]

7 hours ago, BondNahelBond said:

One question that came to mind just now for me after my 2nd read through of WaT is, if the shards impart memory of their power’s history to their vessel, did the individual powers’ memories extend to before the shattering or do they begin at the shattering?

I don't know for certain, but my impression is that the memories do not extend back before the Shattering. What makes me think so is one of Sazed's epigraphs from Hero of Ages (the one from the 39th chapter, I think):

Quote

Even now, I can barely grasp the scope of all this. The events surrounding the end of the world seem even larger than the Final Empire and the people within it. I sense shards of something from long ago, a fractured presence, something spanning the void.

I have delved and searched, and have only been able to come up with a single name: Adonalsium. Who, or what, it was, I do not yet know.

If the Shards' memories extended back to before the Shattering Sazed would not be so ignorant of Adonalsium as the Shards would remember being a part of Adonalsium.

[markymarc18]

Frost (or another dragon, but almost certainly Frost).

Why?

First, the vision was not brought by the Power of Honor (a child), the historical Nohadon (Ishar confirms he was a petty king), or Dalinar himself (he was confused and shocked by the taste of Shin bread eaten correctly). These seem to be the other popular contenders, along with the entity in my next point.

Secondly, we can pretty safely discard any other entity (such as the "voice" of Adonalsium), since "Nohadon" references Midias/Wit/Hoid in real time. I don't find it plausible that the voice of the dead Uni-God is holding casual conversations with Wit.

Lastly, we know dragons can take on human form. We know they can communicate across vast distances and have Cosmere awareness. We know Frost and his sister are both in frequent communication with Wit, specifically in regards to the Contest and the intricacies of its contract and Alethi code.

So, my personal Frost theory is this:

Frost has been in frequent communication with Wit about Roshar, ROdium, Dalinar, etc. Since Wit and Frost don't always see eye-to-eye on a Cosmere level (IIRC), Frost initiated the first atypical vision from Oathbringer (also, heavy allusions to dragons abound in the vision). He did so in a form that would be familiar to and respected by Dalinar, hence the "Nohadon" façade. Later, when Frost felt Dalinar's Ascension, he reached out to Dalinar/Honor (Donor? Dalonor? I'm still workshopping it...) to offer a solution in the same façade.

So yeah, Frost.

[markymarc18]

Hey, @alder24... As someone who is in Camp Jasnah (I don't believe in a god/afterlife), I really appreciate your sentiment! 

Quote

I try very hard (despite my personal biases) to not undercut the viewpoint of someone who doesn't believe in an afterlife. It is vital to me that the author not sweep in and say, "Yeah, it's cool some characters are Atheists at all who doesn't believe in an afterlife...but nudge nudge, we both know there is one."

That's an incredibly honest approach, and speaks volumes for your character. As long as you don't hate gay/trans people, you're pretty storming cool in my book.

[Through The Living Ash he/him]

16 hours ago, markymarc18 said:

Frost (or another dragon, but almost certainly Frost).

Why?

First, the vision was not brought by the Power of Honor (a child), the historical Nohadon (Ishar confirms he was a petty king), or Dalinar himself (he was confused and shocked by the taste of Shin bread eaten correctly). These seem to be the other popular contenders, along with the entity in my next point.

Secondly, we can pretty safely discard any other entity (such as the "voice" of Adonalsium), since "Nohadon" references Midias/Wit/Hoid in real time. I don't find it plausible that the voice of the dead Uni-God is holding casual conversations with Wit.

Lastly, we know dragons can take on human form. We know they can communicate across vast distances and have Cosmere awareness. We know Frost and his sister are both in frequent communication with Wit, specifically in regards to the Contest and the intricacies of its contract and Alethi code.

So, my personal Frost theory is this:

Frost has been in frequent communication with Wit about Roshar, ROdium, Dalinar, etc. Since Wit and Frost don't always see eye-to-eye on a Cosmere level (IIRC), Frost initiated the first atypical vision from Oathbringer (also, heavy allusions to dragons abound in the vision). He did so in a form that would be familiar to and respected by Dalinar, hence the "Nohadon" façade. Later, when Frost felt Dalinar's Ascension, he reached out to Dalinar/Honor (Donor? Dalonor? I'm still workshopping it...) to offer a solution in the same façade.

So yeah, Frost.

I could see it as another dragon, perhaps, but Frost has been so against interacting or meddling with Shards in the past that I cannot see him doing this. 

[Nitpicking]

I posted a while back that "Nohadon" was Frost. @Ashkaloda, have you read Dragonsteel Prime?  I ask because 

Spoiler

... in that book, Frost states that he's forbidden by an oath to intervene. Then he secretly intervenes anyway.

 

[Riino He/Him]

9 minutes ago, Nitpicking said:

I posted a while back that "Nohadon" was Frost. @Ashkaloda, have you read Dragonsteel Prime?  I ask because 

  Hide contents

... in that book, Frost states that he's forbidden by an oath to intervene. Then he secretly intervenes anyway.

 

Extremely interesting concept. 

But I'm not sure that Nohadon fits Frosts personality

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

On 1/6/2025 at 7:30 AM, alder24 said:

That someone else the powers referred to was most likely the God Beyond (who we don't know and will never know if he exists at all) in whom Dalinar believed in recent books.

To say that it was most likely a direct reference to action being taken or prevented by the God Beyond, and then to say in the next breath that we don’t know and will never know if they exist… seems to be a direct contradiction in my opinion.

If what prevented Retribution from seizing Dalinar’s cognitive shadow in that moment was the god beyond, that means we have clear evidence for the god beyond existing. And not only existing, but being able to interfere directly with events in the 3 realms of the Cosmere.

Because we know the existence of a ‘god beyond’ will never be confirmed, I think we can completely rule out the possibility of this god being responsible for Dalinar being allowed to slip into the beyond. Similar to how we can completely rule out Evi as being the one who has claimed him.

This 3rd party must be one of the other shards or Adonalsium somehow. It could be protections leftover by Cultivation due to his connection and history with her. Or it could be another shard like Valor/Reason (though for many other reasons I think Reason can be ruled out as well). The only remaining alternative is that Adonalsium (as a cognitive shadow or remnant sliver or being of some unknown kind) intervened and allowed Dalinar to pass into the beyond or oblivion or whichever you believe to be the case.

Nohadon is, in my opinion, likely involved. But I don’t think this Nohadon is just a regular person or a spiritual realm figure bound to Dalinar because he read the book. There were outside forces at play that interacted directly with and gave guidance to Dalinar - without his permission or seeking such guidance. For that reason I believe Nohadon to be either an aspect of Adonalsium in some form that we don’t yet know, or to be a sliver/avatar/agent of some kind for a 4th shard, most likely Valor. I think it’s possible it could be Cultivation but from Brandon’s latest interview it seems that she was not as in control of her plans as people have been believing.

Regardless of which of the above options is the responsible party, I agree that they were only protecting Dalinar’s cognitive shadow from being forced to serve Retribution for eternity and allowed him to pass to the beyond. He is gone for good and not coming back.

Edited June 5, 2025 by CognitiveShadow
Changed odium to retribution

[Through The Living Ash he/him]

11 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

I posted a while back that "Nohadon" was Frost. @Ashkaloda, have you read Dragonsteel Prime?  I ask because 

  Hide contents

... in that book, Frost states that he's forbidden by an oath to intervene. Then he secretly intervenes anyway.

 

I have read it. 

Spoiler

While Frost may sort of intervene in DS', his actions and personality I feel are slightly different than how we have seen him in canonical books, and the fact that he so thoroughly rebuts Hoid's request for aid leads me to believe that it was not in his interests to interfere with the events on Roshar. 

 

3 hours ago, CognitiveShadow said:

To say that it was most likely a direct reference to action being taken or prevented by the God Beyond, and then to say in the next breath that we don’t know and will never know if they exist… seems to be a direct contradiction in my opinion.

If what prevented Retribution from seizing Dalinar’s cognitive shadow in that moment was the god beyond, that means we have clear evidence for the god beyond existing. And not only existing, but being able to interfere directly with events in the 3 realms of the Cosmere.

Because we know the existence of a ‘god beyond’ will never be confirmed, I think we can completely rule out the possibility of this god being responsible for Dalinar being allowed to slip into the beyond. Similar to how we can completely rule out Evi as being the one who has claimed him.

This 3rd party must be one of the other shards or Adonalsium somehow. It could be protections leftover by Cultivation due to his connection and history with her. Or it could be another shard like Valor/Reason (though for many other reasons I think Reason can be ruled out as well). The only remaining alternative is that Adonalsium (as a cognitive shadow or remnant sliver or being of some unknown kind) intervened and allowed Dalinar to pass into the beyond or oblivion or whichever you believe to be the case.

Nohadon is, in my opinion, likely involved. But I don’t think this Nohadon is just a regular person or a spiritual realm figure bound to Dalinar because he read the book. There were outside forces at play that interacted directly with and gave guidance to Dalinar - without his permission or seeking such guidance. For that reason I believe Nohadon to be either an aspect of Adonalsium in some form that we don’t yet know, or to be a sliver/avatar/agent of some kind for a 4th shard, most likely Valor. I think it’s possible it could be Cultivation but from Brandon’s latest interview it seems that she was not as in control of her plans as people have been believing.

Regardless of which of the above options is the responsible party, I agree that they were only protecting Dalinar’s cognitive shadow from being forced to serve Retribution for eternity and allowed him to pass to the beyond. He is gone for good and not coming back.

Here is a relevant quote:

WaT I-2

Quote

"This is a curse," [Odium] said, holding the dying child close. "I should be able to help them. Save them!" 

"You are forbidden," Cultivation said, "from taking direct action against any who are not fully given to you." 

"Because of the pact my predecessor made," he spat. "I can break it." 

It seems to me that as Retribution still had to follow the original agreement reached between the three Shards (or at least the Honor part wanted to follow it), it limits direct action, especially against people. Cultivation says they must be fully given to Odium, so when Retribution notices that Dalinar is claimed by another, it is my understanding that even though Dalinar may have been mostly of Honor, he was in some part of another Shard too, likely Cultivation due to her tampering of his memories and direct interaction within his final few days. 

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

22 hours ago, Ashkaloda said:

It seems to me that as Retribution still had to follow the original agreement reached between the three Shards (or at least the Honor part wanted to follow it), it limits direct action, especially against people. Cultivation says they must be fully given to Odium, so when Retribution notices that Dalinar is claimed by another, it is my understanding that even though Dalinar may have been mostly of Honor, he was in some part of another Shard too, likely Cultivation due to her tampering of his memories and direct interaction within his final few days. 

I think this is a good callout, but we also have to recognize that Dalinar completely broke all aspects of their earlier contracts and released Odium from the binding agreements that trapped him on Roshar. Now, Retribution includes Honor, and in order to appease Honor's power there is some compulsion for Taravangion to still hold to previous agreements even though they aren't technically binding him still. But if that were the case, I would expect the callout from the power to be similar to what urged him to maintain the boundaries and agreements from the contest of champions outcome. We already saw the power of Honor push him in that direction, but the phrasing here is that he is claimed by another.

I agree Cultivation makes sense as an option, but I'm not sold on it. I think that if the power of Retribution stopped Taravangian from taking hold of Dalinar's cognitive shadow it would have been a more direct reference to the agreement they were already very familiar with. This seemed to be a new blocker that Taravangian did not expect. Dalinar shoudl have been totally in his power since he renounced all his oaths and for all intents and purposes surrendered the contest. I bet there would be a way Taravangian could convince the power that (a) Dalinar was an oathbreaker who deserved retribution and (b) forcing Dalinar to follow through on his prior oath to serve Odium would be warranted given the situation. But instead he was completely blocked off and told that another had claimed him.

Cultivation also fled the scene. And Brandon has since said that her plans were not and are not perfect - if they were, we wouldn't have a need for the series. I don't think she fled as part of a larger plan or that she was expecting/hoping things would go this direction. I also don't think she would have cared enough about Dalinar to protect him from Taravangian, aside from hoping to keep him from having Dalinar as weapon or something. That's the best argument I can see for her being the one claiming him in that moment. But I still lean towards Valor, a hidden 4th shard