Disappointed in wat a take back of oathbringer

[MagicMaggot]

33 minutes ago, Sedside said:

Kill the guy you hate, but lose in the long term, or sacrifice yourself, break the contract, do the right thing, but let the character everyone hates live. But in the end the choice is between two absolutely bad options and the one undoubtedly good option, which Dalinar eventually chooses.

I agree with you on that one. That would have been more interesting to me. As it was, I didn't find the contest itself very relevant, because the text had made it very clear to me before it happened that it wouldn't matter. So the champion wasn't much of the point to me. But yeah, Dalinar's moral decision could have been driven home better, if he actually had a reason to want to win the contest, even a petty one like personal vengeance. Though I don't think it hurt Dalinar's character not to have one, and I don't think it would have added anything to him that we hadn't seen before. The contest was pointless either way, but I understand how it could have been more emotional like you suggest. 

[Sedside she/her]

15 minutes ago, MagicMaggot said:

I agree with you on that one. That would have been more interesting to me. As it was, I didn't find the contest itself very relevant, because the text had made it very clear to me before it happened that it wouldn't matter. So the champion wasn't much of the point to me. But yeah, Dalinar's moral decision could have been driven home better, if he actually had a reason to want to win the contest, even a petty one like personal vengeance. Though I don't think it hurt Dalinar's character not to have one, and I don't think it would have added anything to him that we hadn't seen before. The contest was pointless either way, but I understand how it could have been more emotional like you suggest. 

I'm glad we agree on something finally

[MagicMaggot]

37 minutes ago, Sedside said:

I'm glad we agree on something finally

Hey, "I agree" were actually the first words I adressed to you in this thread! 

But to add to the lack of felt emotion on the contest itself, I think the idea of getting Alethkar back was supposed to do a lot more work than it actually did. I mean, Alethkar was his homeland, so if we're looking for a reason why the guy would desperately want to win, freeing it should have been an obvious one.

If that was the intention, it certainly didn't work for me at all. We haven't really spent much time with Alethkar as a place with its own character. Yeah, we know a lot of people from there, but well, most of the ones we knew we already got out to the Warcamps or Urithiru (and the rest were already under singer occupation when we met them). And even trying to see it from the way we got to know Dalinar... Alethkar was mostly a place where he found people to fight. We have never seen him enjoy life there. Might be we missed some interesting childhood and youth-stuff, but what we were presented with was the battlefield and the wine cellar, and that's it. 
The Dalinar that could function in society and actually look for peaceful resolutions was born on the shattered plains, after his visit to the Nightwatcher.

Maybe there was some miscalculation here?

Edited January 1, 2025 by MagicMaggot

[+Oltux72 he/him]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Why would TOdium renegotiate? Current setup of the contests is nearly ideal for him, what could Dalinar offer him?

From his angle, the only variable still in the air is whether Dalinar will serve him as Fused, or if Dalinar will break his morals by killing Gavinor (or substitute any other innocent), the rest is basically determined anyway.

Because he was on the verge of losing what took him thousands of years to achieve and be put into a situation, where time was working against him.

• Honor was back
• The Fused won't last another 1000 years
• The Knights Radiant were rebuilding

Being allowed to leave was the better option.

[therunner he/him]

18 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Because he was on the verge of losing what took him thousands of years to achieve and be put into a situation, where time was working against him.

• Honor was back
• The Fused won't last another 1000 years
• The Knights Radiant were rebuilding

Being allowed to leave was the better option.

Except that Taravangian wasn't working for thousands of years for that goal, he didn't care about that. And even Rayse wouldn't want to leave, he went to Roshar system for a reason, that being Surgebinding.

Plus, what makes you think that Honor could let him leave? Tanavast made a binding Oath to keep Odium in Roshar system, Honor wouldn't want to suddenly let it go. The only way Odium could leave was if Dalinar basically did what he ended up doing, renounce the Oaths Honor made.

[Treamayne]

On 1/1/2025 at 10:21 AM, Sedside said:

Well, it makes sense for Dalinar's reasoning behind his final decision. But in this case it doesn't explain the moral dilemma. Taravangian was talking about killing the innocent, but look, replace "Gav" with "Moash" in your post, does it change anything? Moash is not innocent, but it makes no sense to kill him as well, because of the reasons you've described.

On the one hand, yes. It would not have mattered. On the other hand, Taravangian does not know or realize that Dalinar has understood the Catch-22 Odium set up - so from TOdium's PoV, the fact that this was a Moral Battle was relevant - because that is the area in which he and Dalinar have clashed previously (fireside chat in OB, for example).

On 1/1/2025 at 10:21 AM, Sedside said:

And I would have totally understood the outcome if Dalinar went out of the Spiritual Realm with that knowledge and was heading towards the contest already comprehending the fact that he has to find the third way. But he went there, saw Gav and was like "oh, it's Gav, I can't kill Gav, pick someone else".

I feel like your instinctive reactions are the factor here. Dalinar did leave the SR with the understanding that it was a set up. True, he did not "find a third option" until he was in the situation - but he was trying to seek a third option even before leaving the Spiritual Realm. In fact, the entire SR trip was essentially Dalinar searching for a Third Option.

WaT:
 

Spoiler

Ch 126

Spoiler

“I kept hope,” the Stormfather said, “that he could be defeated by a champion…”

“I don’t share that hope,” Dalinar said. “He was able to outmaneuver Tanavast, who knew him well. A simple man like me could never manage it. That’s why I decided I needed the power of a god.”

<snip>

“I have to win this contest,” Dalinar said. “Yet I feel that no matter what I do, he’ll play me for one of the ten fools.” 
<snip>

At least he had more information now. In his younger years all he’d wanted to do was march onto a battlefield and find an opponent, but he’d come to realize the essential military value of a little knowledge. Wars were won not by hotheads with swords, but by cool minds who could position those hotheads.

Dalinar had context for his clash with Odium. He’d seen the creature’s history, and knew how he thought. Except there was a wrinkle.

“Odium is not Rayse any longer,” Dalinar said. “Taravangian took his place.”

“I fear the power, Dalinar, more than Taravangian. I fear Honor as well. These powers were not meant to be held in isolation—each of them is warped or distorted without the others.” The Stormfather moved closer. “I find myself glad it is you going to this conflict, Dalinar.”

“Why?” Dalinar asked, his hands spread. “I am no better than Tanavast. I burned cities, I murdered.”

“Perhaps,” the Stormfather said. “But you took the next step, Dalinar, when I hid.” 

Ch 128

Quote

“Just as it didn’t matter,” Dalinar said, “if one boy could prove himself better than a lighteyes—the people deserved better lives anyway.”

“Yes.”

“As do mine,” Dalinar said. “As do all of those of Roshar. It’s a distraction. The contest of champions, the contract … all of it. The words, the posturing. It’s pointless.”

“Yes.”

“But I am not pointless. My life. People’s lives. The meaning comes from us. Naturally, intrinsically.

Ch 129:

Spoiler

When she pulled back, his eyes were sorrowful.

“You don’t know how you’re going to beat him?” she guessed. “The trip through the Spiritual Realm … a waste?”

“No,” he said. “Very much not a waste. It showed me how little I understand, which is a lesson I wish I could stop needing to be taught. I don’t know what is to come. I don’t know if I’ll be able to counter it. But … I feel more confident than I did ten days ago.”

“Do what is right in the moment,” she whispered.

 

 

Edited January 12, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Sedside she/her]

2 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

On the one hand, yes. It would not have mattered. On the other hand, Tatavangian does not know or realize that Dalinar has understood the Catch-22 Odium set up - so from TOdium's PoV, the fact that it was a Morale Battle was relevant - because that is the area he and Dalinar have clashed previously (fireside chat in OB, for example).

I feel like your instinctive reactions are the factor here. Dalinar did leave the SR with the understanding that it was a set up. True, he did not "find a third option" until he was in the situation - but he was trying to seek a third option even before leaving the Spiritual Realm. In fact, the entire SR trip was essentially Dalinar searching for a Third Option.

WaT:
 

  Hide contents

Ch 126

  Reveal hidden contents

“I kept hope,” the Stormfather said, “that he could be defeated by a champion…”

“I don’t share that hope,” Dalinar said. “He was able to outmaneuver Tanavast, who knew him well. A simple man like me could never manage it. That’s why I decided I needed the power of a god.”

<snip>

“I have to win this contest,” Dalinar said. “Yet I feel that no matter what I do, he’ll play me for one of the ten fools.” 
<snip>

At least he had more information now. In his younger years all he’d wanted to do was march onto a battlefield and find an opponent, but he’d come to realize the essential military value of a little knowledge. Wars were won not by hotheads with swords, but by cool minds who could position those hotheads.

Dalinar had context for his clash with Odium. He’d seen the creature’s history, and knew how he thought. Except there was a wrinkle.

“Odium is not Rayse any longer,” Dalinar said. “Taravangian took his place.”

“I fear the power, Dalinar, more than Taravangian. I fear Honor as well. These powers were not meant to be held in isolation—each of them is warped or distorted without the others.” The Stormfather moved closer. “I find myself glad it is you going to this conflict, Dalinar.”

“Why?” Dalinar asked, his hands spread. “I am no better than Tanavast. I burned cities, I murdered.”

“Perhaps,” the Stormfather said. “But you took the next step, Dalinar, when I hid.” 

Ch 128

Ch 129:

  Reveal hidden contents

When she pulled back, his eyes were sorrowful.

“You don’t know how you’re going to beat him?” she guessed. “The trip through the Spiritual Realm … a waste?”

“No,” he said. “Very much not a waste. It showed me how little I understand, which is a lesson I wish I could stop needing to be taught. I don’t know what is to come. I don’t know if I’ll be able to counter it. But … I feel more confident than I did ten days ago.”

“Do what is right in the moment,” she whispered.

 

 

Yes, again, I understand this from the characters' points of view, I don't understand it from the writing standpoint. The way it was written and wrapped up felt somewhat messy and underwhelming to me. If he understands he doesn't have to kill Gav, why does he ask Odium to pick another champion? Why does he keep to this conversation about morale? Why does he keep thinking is it the real Gav or not? It is written in a way that it looks like it's centered around killing an innocent dilemma, but then it turns out that picking an innocent for this fight was absolutely the wrong thing to do. And freezing him was also the wrong thing. And Dalinar's decision feels cheap because he was shoehorned into it by Odium's choice of Gav, and not Dalinar's investigation or his honor (not Honor) or something else. But well, I'm repeating myself, sorry.

1 hour ago, MagicMaggot said:

Hey, "I agree" were actually the first words I adressed to you in this thread! 

Haha, sorry, I guess it's the end of the year just affecting my memory too much lol.

1 hour ago, MagicMaggot said:

But to add to the lack of felt emotion on the contest itself, I think the idea of getting Alethkar back was supposed to do a lot more work than it actually did. I mean, Alethkar was his homeland, so if we're looking for a reason why the guy would desperately want to win, freeing it should have been an obvious one.

If that was the intention, it certainly didn't work for me at all. We haven't really spent much time with Alethkar as a place with its own character. Yeah, we know a lot of people from there, but well, most of the ones we knew we already got out to the Warcamps or Urithiru (and the rest were already under singer occupation when we met them). And even trying to see it from the way we got to know Dalinar... Alethkar was mostly a place where he found people to fight. We have never seen him enjoy life there. Might be we missed some interesting childhood and youth-stuff, but what we were presented with was the battlefield and the wine cellar, and that's it. 
The Dalinar that could function in society and actually look for peaceful resolutions was born on the shattered plains, after his visit to the Nightwatcher.

Maybe there was some miscalculation here?

It kinda worked for me, to be honest. I definitely would like to see Alethkar back much more than Gav alive. But yes, my emotinal attachment to Alethkar was built mostly through Kholinar mission, than through Dalinar's perspective.

[Treamayne]

2 minutes ago, Sedside said:

If he understands he doesn't have to kill Gav, why does he ask Odium to pick another champion? Why does he keep to this conversation about morale? Why does he keep thinking is it the real Gav or not? It is written in a way that it looks like it's centered around killing an innocent dilemma, but then it turns out that picking an innocent for this fight was absolutely the wrong thing to do.

That I can agree with. I disliked everything about the Child Champion portion. It was poorly handled.

However, I am happy with the "release Odium" result, because I have been asking for that since Oathbringer and it really should have been done back in RoW instead of codifying a Contest of Champions (something like - I'll free you from Roshar if you leave completely and never return).

Thinking about it, this is all Hoid's fault (as Frost predicted) - because his insitance that Odium not be allowed to leave Roshar was both the wrong solution and the cause of this ending for SA5. . .

[Sedside she/her]

47 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

That I can agree with. I disliked everything about the Child Champion portion. It was poorly handled.

However, I am happy with the "release Odium" result, because I have been asking for that since Oathbringer and it really should have been done back in RoW instead of codifying a Contest of Champions (something like - I'll free you from Roshar if you leave completely and never return).

Yeah, I agree with this as well. As a lot of people have mentioned in various reviews I've read/watched, this book is all about destination. I do like the destination we arrived at with all of the arcs, including this one, but the journey there was... weird.

[Mason Wheeler]

On 12/28/2024 at 7:46 AM, Sedside said:

Also his murder of Sadeas never gets properly addressed, while Jasnah gets punished for murdering some bandits in the alley.

Honestly, I don't see any real problem there.  Adolin did the right thing, quite possibly the only right thing he could have done.  Sadeas had just confessed to — boasted of, even — being a traitor with every intention of committing future acts of treason.  In times of war no less!  As a Highprince, there was no realistic way for the law to hold him accountable.  Dalinar, the one person who might have been able to deal with him lawfully, was too blinded by his past friendship for the man to do so, and Adolin knew this.  Summary execution was the only way to stop him, and he had to be stopped.

This was not true for the bandits.  They were not Highprinces, or otherwise people whose social status put them above the law.  If Jasnah could find them, or make them find her, she could easily have found some way to incapacitate them and deliver them to agents of the law, rather than murdering them.  The existence of plausible alternatives makes it reasonable to judge her actions more harshly than those of Adolin.

[Sedside she/her]

1 minute ago, Mason Wheeler said:

Honestly, I don't see any real problem there.  Adolin did the right thing, quite possibly the only right thing he could have done.  Sadeas had just confessed to — boasted of, even — being a traitor with every intention of committing future acts of treason.  In times of war no less!  As a Highprince, there was no realistic way for the law to hold him accountable.  Dalinar, the one person who might have been able to deal with him lawfully, was too blinded by his past friendship for the man to do so, and Adolin knew this.  Summary execution was the only way to stop him, and he had to be stopped.

Honestly, I'm tired to explain what I think of it, I will die on that hill, so let's just agree to disagree.

[Deianira]

17 minutes ago, Sedside said:

Honestly, I'm tired to explain what I think of it, I will die on that hill, so let's just agree to disagree.

Sorry, but you claim, that Sadeses death wasn't properly adressed. It was, you just don't like it. 

You absolutly have a right to see this in the different way as Sanderson, most in-world caracters and many readers do. You can be dissapointed in Sanderson's moral, but you can't keep pretanding it's a wrighting issue. It's a moral one. 

[Asininity]

@MagicMaggot
We are not talking about fact literature, any quote given is open to interpretation. While Stormlight is not exactly masterpiece of modern storytelling, there are some deeper themes underneath surface level ideas. You can't expect me to cite something that is written between the lines and can't expect the book to explicitly explain everything like to a cow in a ditch. So no, I don't think the "word" is authoritative.

My interpretation of the crusade’s goal comes from the overarching tones of Szeth’s story: uncovering truth, seeking justice, and building confidence among others. What led you to think it was about personal vendetta?

Szeth was presented a choice: dedicate to existing laws of humans or accept old laws of Dawnsingers and new god.
Instead he identifies undisclosed path - to follow a person.
Nale assumed that meant himself, but Szeth’s questioning of Nale’s reasoning throughout the book makes it clear that was never the case. The choice was always Dalinar.

Yes - he still remains in the Order but follows his own path within it. I view it as significant departure from blind obedience. 

Ideal of Dedication purpose, in my eyes, is to give the Radiant a crutch until better understanding of Justice is achieved. Szeth makes the decision (cleanse Shinovar) - Dalinar approves it (if he wills it). This dynamic respects and reinforces Knights's agency rather than undermining it, with the Ideal acting as a framework rather than an imposition. Szeth cannot trust himself to make righteous decision so relies on external judgement to validate it.

Regardless, we seem to agree that he made a choice and that's progress. While you can dismiss it as replacing one owner with another, speculate on what he might have done under different circumstances or simply reject them as inconsequential, to me the act itself is what ultimately matters.

I do agree, that he was far from perfect during events of WaT, there wouldn't be much point to the journey if he was. He did however drawn weapon on both Nale and Ishar in RoW, which I've read as an act of defiance.
Through both magical and mundane means he was convinced to be insane. Despite all the gaslighting, each time he's required to make a commitment, he makes the choice aligning with his own sense of justice and never shying away from questioning authorities - this quality was taken away from him in WaT. 

@Sedside @Treamayne
We kinda knew that Odium would be unleashed on the Cosmere so it's not the resolution that rubs me the wrong way. I have a problem with reasoning around it. I don't get any sense of desperation or hopelessness, for all we have seen, Desolation turned out to be a case of bad weather and the apocalypse got stuck in crem.

Dalinar winning the contest solves almost everything in context of Roshar:
1) Coalition gets Alethkar, Herdaz, Azir, Urithiru and probably Shattered Plains, Shinovar and whatever Ishar conquered - that's pretty much totality of human military power
2) Heralds are getting better - Oathpact gets reforged and they have plenty of time to recuperate during ceasefire
3) Unoathed are now a thing
4) Most of Skybreakers return to Honor's side
5) Radiants dominate the Fused on any battlefield, the only thing they had in favor was ability to resurect - existance of anti-light hurts them more
6) But most importanly - Dalinar now holds the power of Honor - this alone completely changes power dynamics

What does the Odium gets?
1) Thaylena - rich nation of merchants who used to have navy (good luck utilizing it when Dalinar controls the Highstorm)
2) Taravangian empire is already crumbling - Ba-Ado-Mishram will create schizm between parshendi and try to usurp the power, Unmade are willing to betray him, Singers already did rebel and for humans it's a matter of time

I just can't see reality where Odium does not lose.

It will definitively improve situation of Cosmere in the long run but there's no way to foresee the outcome when 16 Shards are involved making it desperate gamble. With current resolution both parshendi and humans are essentially enslaved to Retribution and will be forced into intergalactic war with other Shards. Is that improvement over current conflic?

[Sedside she/her]

5 minutes ago, Deianira said:

Sorry, but you claim, that Sadeses death wasn't properly adressed. It was, you just don't like it. 

You absolutly have a right to see this in the different way as Sanderson, most in-world caracters and many readers do. You can be dissapointed in Sanderson's moral, but you can't keep pretanding it's a wrighting issue. It's a moral one. 

Sorry, but I don't read "Adolin killed Sadeas" as "addressing Sadeas's death". And yes, it's a writing issue, not a moral one. Adolin is a one single writing issue. The thickness of his plot armor is unbelievable, and in my personal opinion he is a vile corruption upon this series. Noone can ever make me change my opinion on this, unless the author himself writes a proper arc for him in the next books when I will see him really struggling with something and growing as a person. WaT had some hint at this, but it's not enough.

Edited January 3, 2025 by Sedside

[Sedside she/her]

26 minutes ago, Asininity said:

It will definitively improve situation of Cosmere in the long run but there's no way to foresee the outcome when 16 Shards are involved making it desperate gamble. With current resolution both parshendi and humans are essentially enslaved to Retribution and will be forced into intergalactic war with other Shards. Is that improvement over current conflic?

I don't know. I'm actually a little bit hesitant to discuss things like that here, because I'm not any good with realmatics, also not at all cosmere aware, and I always expect to get bombed with WoBs in response  I also don't get why Dalinar couldn't just kill Gav, aside from him being his relative. It was not explained in the book well enough for me to grasp it at the first read-through, maybe I'm too stupid for that. Like someone said in the other topic, I haven't done a good enough job reading, lol.

Edit: oh, I thought the posts will get merged but they didn't, I'm sorry for that.

Edited January 3, 2025 by Sedside

[Asininity]

@Sedside
Odium having preference was enough to cripple Rayse, and Honor started having opinions. Dealing with a rebellious omnipotent teenager will drive Taravangian insane. At least that's what I think will happen.

I guess we read the same book then as I've got the same vibe - Dalinar simply don't want to kill his grand-nephew. He argues that winning is meaningless either way because how crafty Todium is, but that's not how it looks like.

[Sedside she/her]

33 minutes ago, Asininity said:

I guess we read the same book then as I've got the same vibe - Dalinar simply don't want to kill his grand-nephew. He argues that winning is meaningless either way because how crafty Todium is, but that's not how it looks like.

Exactly. And here is where it circles back to the big Adolin hypocrisy. Sure he did the right thing in murdering Sadeas, did he? What if it was not Adolin, but, dunno, Skar? Or any other random darkeyes or even lighteyes. Sure Dalinar would have said "boy, it's all right, we will deal with it, we will keep it a secret and there will be no consequences for you, because it was the right thing to do". Would he? (Natalie Portman is looking at you now) I mean, Kaladin was imprisoned for less.

But no, Dalinar was not a hypocrite, he was not the one choosing to protect his family members, but doing the "greater good" choices for the cosmere and Alethkar or whatever. His relatives involved are just a coincidence.

[MagicMaggot]

  

6 hours ago, Asininity said:

We are not talking about fact literature, any quote given is open to interpretation. 

Indeed. And I would suggest we usually get there by talking about the text. As it is, you're explaining to me what you read somehwere, somehow between the lines. You are aware that I haven't read the same subtext here. Which means, I'll continue to dismiss it as a premise for the argument of the change of messaging here, if you won't convince me otherwise. You might not find the "word" wholly authoritative, but I can tell you that I certainly am a lot more likely to be persuaded by it than I am by your explanantion of how one could have read the text differently from me. Especially if your reading leads to more disappointment and percieved inconsistencies than mine. 

6 hours ago, Asininity said:

What led you to think it was about personal vendetta?

You called it a vendetta, not me. I don't think what I said ever described one. I said the crusade was a consequence of rejecting the judgement of truthlessness, not the law that bound a truthless to a stone. As far as we knew before WaT, Szeth was judged for claiming "something related to a claim that the Voidbringers had returned". Seeing the Everstorm proved him right and his judges wrong, as he said. So when he choses his crusade, he chooses setting things right within his homeland. Not because the laws are wrong, but because something there is wrong, if it judged him wrongly. So... if "uncovering truth, seeking justice, and building confidence", as you say, are the themes of his journey, I'd say that's perfectly in line with that. I just don't think the text spports that he was as far along on that journey as you seem to think. 

6 hours ago, Asininity said:

Yes - he still remains in the Order but follows his own path within it. I view it as significant departure from blind obedience. 

Considering Nale made him choose, I don't think that's much of one. If Nale had told him what to do, he would have done it. Following the order to decide isn't breaking with obedience. Maybe with subservience or personal devotion, but I don't think either of those were ever established as traits for him. Else he wouldn't be so very abrasive as a person. 

6 hours ago, Asininity said:

he makes the choice aligning with his own sense of justice and never shying away from questioning authorities - this quality was taken away from him in WaT. 

How so? I mean, while he accepts Nale's prodding to do what the Heralds want him to do, Szeth has no qualms confronting Nale, when he tells him that including Kaladin was cheating, or rejecting his spren's authority, as soon as he sees him as less than useful. He has to decide between the path the heralds laid out for him, and his own realization that he wants to stop fighting, and he wavers, but never blindly follows either Kaladin's wishes, nor Nale's. Nor Ishar's for that matter. He is willing to take on the burden of being a Herald, if necessary, but he very explicitly demands the right to make that decision, instead of just obeying the order. 

I would say he makes choices aligning with his own sense of justice without shying away from questioning authorities quite a lot here.

 

Edited January 3, 2025 by MagicMaggot

[Deianira]

6 hours ago, Sedside said:

Sorry, but I don't read "Adolin killed Sadeas" as "addressing Sadeas's death". And yes, it's a writing issue, not a moral one. Adolin is a one single writing issue. The thickness of his plot armor is unbelievable, and in my personal opinion he is a vile corruption upon this series. Noone can ever make me change my opinion on this, unless the author himself writes a proper arc for him in the next books when I will see him really struggling with something and growing as a person. WaT had some hint at this, but it's not enough.

You want a PRINCE in an absolute monarchy kingdom to be prosecuted by his family members for killing a traitor, who was actively threatening him and his father, the de-facto King. A traitor, to whom none of the people involved in this secret care. In the middle of the End of the World for these characters. 

It would just be ridiculous in any aspect. It's Roshar, not Earth 2025. They have kingdoms, aristocracy and slavery. Even the best of them are just starting to question the lighteyes/darkeyes sistem.

Adolin being a prince is not plot armor, it's his place, established since book one. That's the reason Sadeas is after him. That's the reason he was at the Tower, betrayed by Sadeas. That's the reason the two of them have a history together. 

Yeah, life isn't fair, people get away with things that would put others in prison. SA is about many things, but life being fair is not one of them. Taking responsibility for your actions doesn't involve "going willingly into a trial and facing the law" on Roshar. 

Dalinar never faced a trial for his war crimes, he is only torchered by his conscience. Shallan killed both of her parents, Tin, Illai. Jasna goes around hiring assassins and killing people in the dark alleys. Amaram killed Kalladin's frends, Kalladin was involved in a plot to kill Ehlokar, Szeth killed a bunch of kings, including Gavilar, etc., etc., etc.

It's an epic fantasy book. People kill and don't get judged for that. Prosecuting Adolin for what everyone else is constantly doing would be the most stupid and unrelatable thing in SA ever.

You hate Adolin, we got it. You don't need to change your mind on this, you just can hate him without inventing plot armor and consistency problems that are not there. Adolin has a pretty big character arc for a character who wasn't in the main cast for most of the books. 

[TheHidelSubldies]

1 hour ago, Deianira said:

You hate Adolin, we got it. You don't need to change your mind on this, you just can hate him without inventing plot armor and consistency problems that are not there. Adolin has a pretty big character arc for a character who wasn't in the main cast for most of the books. 

I would argue that plot armor is present in most if not all stories to a degree. The problem with plot armor is when it becomes too blatant for the reader to ignore and when authors don't bother to layer it enough so it sticks out like a sore thumb. It's a tool in writing and it largely depends on the skill of the author to make use of plot armor in a acceptable way without it becoming too blatant. 

I can't speak for others, but part of my frustration with Adolin is that his seeming inability to do wrong, removes tension from the story for me. As gripping as I found his chapters during the siege, there was no single doubt in my mind that they would retake the Azish throne. Now to be fair, a predictable outcome can still be entertaining when it's executed well. However this has become a pattern with Adolin which for me is getting to much to ignore. He laments the loss of his foot and with the absence of stormlight, the likely reality that this loss is permanent. Will this impact his view of himself, his sense of self worth? Will he be forced to reevaluate his place in the world do to being prohibited from being a expert duelist and his passion for the art and swordplay in general?

While I'd like to hope the answers to those questions being in the affirmative and that Brandon might give us a character that struggles with phantom pain and the mental trauma that comes with it. The established rack record implies the opposite. He has a shard prosthetic now so if anything he's going to even more awesome than before. It will not have a negative impact on him in  anyway, or offer a change in perspective. He's still going to be the endless bastion of support and wisdom for others, he will intuitively come to the right conclusions, make the correct decisions. He will bond Maya unwittingly because he's that special. During his trial in RoW he will end up making the best argument even though his legal knowledge is by his own admission scarce. Even his killing of Sadeas was ultimately the correct and moral thing to do. It's Dalinar's rigid and foolish adherence to oaths that was the problem.

I won't pretend that Adolin is the only one with this issue. Like you mentioned, Brandon has a bad habit of not addressing significant moments in his characters stories that would otherwise be a source of conflict with each other or at least an encouragement at self reflection. (Kaladin killing Heleran, Kaladin greenlighting Elhokars attempted assassination, Shallan killing her mother and never addressing it with her family, Shallan hiding her affiliation with the ghostbloods just to name a few). Yet I do find that's particularly prevalent with Adolin as opposed to the other cast members. 

I don't have the WoB on hand (someone please correct me if I'm mistaken) but I think Brandon mentioned that he never intended for Adolin to be a very deep character. Frankly I think it shows even now and it's what disappoints me the most. There's plenty to work with if one wanted to make Adolin more complex and layered and no, he doesn't need to be elevated to main character level in order to be more nuanced. Instead of tackling the uncomfortable aspects and burdens of responsibility, the unforeseen consequences of rash decisions we get a character that makes everyone around him and by extension the reader, feel warm and fuzzy. The only character that's had a conflict with him ended up being in the wrong and It's perfectly fine. Yet I for one can't help but wonder at the numerous missed opportunities here.

[Deianira]

27 minutes ago, TheHidelSubldies said:

I would argue that plot armor is present in most if not all stories to a degree. The problem with plot armor is when it becomes too blatant for the reader to ignore and when authors don't bother to layer it enough so it sticks out like a sore thumb. It's a tool in writing and it largely depends on the skill of the author to make use of plot armor in a acceptable way without it becoming too blatant. 

I agree with you on this, It's just I don't think Sanderson is failing to use it well. 

31 minutes ago, TheHidelSubldies said:

Now to be fair, a predictable outcome can still be entertaining when it's executed well. However this has become a pattern with Adolin which for me is getting to much to ignore

He fails to save Kholinar, he fails in the Battle of the Tower, saved by Kalladin. He actually fails in the trial, it's Maya who saves the day. So Battle for Azir felt predictable to me because it was time for Adolin to actually win something by himself.

37 minutes ago, TheHidelSubldies said:

While I'd like to hope the answers to those questions being in the affirmative and that Brandon might give us a character that struggles with phantom pain and the mental trauma that comes with it. The established rack record implies the opposite. H

Yes, because we lack traumatized characters in SA, right? We can't afford someone not having mental issues. Kalladin should have more clients, because we all liked his therapist's arc so much. 

Seriously, why? Not every character needs a deep trauma to be relatable. It doesn't make him one-dimensional. I feel like the depth of people's mental problems in SA makes people insensible to characters without such big problems. 

52 minutes ago, TheHidelSubldies said:

Like you mentioned, Brandon has a bad habit of not addressing significant moments in his characters stories that would otherwise be a source of conflict with each other or at least an encouragement at self reflection. (Kaladin killing Heleran, Kaladin greenlighting Elhokars attempted assassination, Shallan killing her mother and never addressing it with her family, Shallan hiding her affiliation with the ghostbloods just to name a few). Yet I do find that's particularly prevalent with Adolin as opposed to the other cast members. 

It's a fantasy story, not a melodrama show, that's it. There is no place for characters constantly whining about everything, or we will never get a plot, just a never-ending cycle of talking about their feelings. We have enough of that already, more than many readers would like to have. 

And by the way, I really, really don't understand what it is to be added to the Kalladin - Helaran thing. I thought this case closed a while ago. Can you enlighten me what bothers people about it, because it's not the first time I see it being brought up, and I genuinely don't understand this one. 

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Deianira said:

Can you enlighten me what bothers people about it, because it's not the first time I see it being brought up, and I genuinely don't understand this one. 

I think it's because Kaladin and Shallan did not discuss it on-screen - the arc was closed in Oathbringer Ch 39 and 40:

Spoiler

Ch 39:

Quote

The rest of them had settled into a group of chairs except for Kaladin, who stood leaning against the wall. Looming like a thundercloud. He had killed Helaran, her brother. The emotion of that peeked out, but Shallan smothered it, stuffing it into the back of her mind. Kaladin wasn’t to be blamed for that. He’d just been defending his brightlord.

Ch 40 was Mraize's letter about Helaran having joined the Skybreakers

Quote

It is also possible that the Skybreakers knew someone in Amaram’s army was close to bonding a spren, but I believe it likelier that the attack on Amaram was simply a strike against the Sons of Honor. From our spying upon the Skybreakers, we have records showing the only member of Amaram’s army to have bonded a spren was long since eliminated.

The bridgeman was not, so far as we understand, known to them. If he had been, he would certainly have been killed during his months as a slave.

So, Helaran went to either kill Tien for being a budding Lightweaver, or to kill Amaram for being a Son of Honor and trynig to return the Desolations the Skybreakers were trying to avoid by murdering proto-Radiants.

Either way, Helaran comes up very rarely after this passage (only once more in Shallan's PoV during Oathbringer - Ch 82 when she is wallowing after Grund was killed).

[Nitpicking]

12 hours ago, Asininity said:

It will definitively improve situation of Cosmere in the long run but there's no way to foresee the outcome when 16 Shards are involved making it desperate gamble. With current resolution both parshendi and humans are essentially enslaved to Retribution and will be forced into intergalactic war with other Shards. Is that improvement over current conflic?

Minor point, but Devotion, Dominion, and Ambition are dead and barring Shard-resurrection are not involved any more. We don't actually know that Virtuosity is dead at this era, do we? We just know that by the time of Yumi, she is.

[boonboon]

Two main characters are being drawn toward each other, with an obvious point of conflict hanging between them, that can lead to interesting scenes/development.

Should the readers expect the arc to be resolved in any meaningful way? Nah, get hundreds of bloated incoherent POVs with useless infodumps instead.

[TheHidelSubldies]

19 minutes ago, Deianira said:

I agree with you on this, It's just I don't think Sanderson is failing to use it well. 

If I left the implication that I thought Sanderson was bad at implementing plot armor properly then let my clarify. I don't. Most of the time I think he does it well enough.
I was simply hoping to clarify what people mean when they say characters have too much plot armor
 

19 minutes ago, Deianira said:

 

He fails to save Kholinar, he fails in the Battle of the Tower, saved by Kalladin. He actually fails in the trial, it's Maya who saves the day. So Battle for Azir felt predictable to me because it was time for Adolin to actually win something by himself.

Yes I'm well aware, in fact Kholinar and the gravity of its loss should have been weighing on his mind as soon as OB. As should the Battle of the Tower, were I think it was mentioned that a good number of his friends have been killed. Maya is only able to do so due to her special bond with Adolin. That he was able to form said bond in the first place is attributed to his keen thoughtfulness and sincerity, only he seems to be able to exhibit. Make of that what you will.

44 minutes ago, Deianira said:

Yes, because we lack traumatized characters in SA, right? We can't afford someone not having mental issues. Kalladin should have more clients, because we all liked his therapist's arc so much. 

Seriously, why? Not every character needs a deep trauma to be relatable. It doesn't make him one-dimensional. I feel like the depth of people's mental problems in SA makes people insensible to characters without such big problems. 

It's a good thing I didn't say that then. You do realize that a persons metal health isn't impervious even if they aren't diagnosed with a specific mental condition and you yourself just recounted some of the more traumatic parts of his life. Do you truly believe that leaves no impact on a person. I'm not saying that he needs be wrecked with grief to the point where he can't function (the main cast are extreme examples for a reason) but showcasing even a small amount of struggle or vulnerability, that these ordeals aren't simple even for him who is "healthy". There is a balance between this things as opposed to opting  for one extreme or the other.

 

1 hour ago, Deianira said:

It's a fantasy story, not a melodrama show, that's it. There is no place for characters constantly whining about everything, or we will never get a plot, just a never-ending cycle of talking about their feelings. We have enough of that already, more than many readers would like to have. 

Why do you believe that all conflicts would be resolved by talking about their feelings. More importantly character conflicts can provide components necessary for certain plot points in the story so yeah. I truly don't know what to tell you. Agree to disagree I guess.

 

1 hour ago, Deianira said:

 

And by the way, I really, really don't understand what it is to be added to the Kalladin - Helaran thing. I thought this case closed a while ago. Can you enlighten me what bothers people about it, because it's not the first time I see it being brought up, and I genuinely don't understand this one. 

As @Treamayne already elaborated. Kaladin's arc in OB is him coming to the realization of the erroneous notion that your enemy isn't always some inhumane monster that deserves to be killed. That there are in fact people on both sides of the conflict who are worth protecting. However, committing to one side means abandoning the other. This is the source of a crisis for him as it conflicts with his desire to help and protect as many as possible.

A stepping stone in that arc, could have been Kaladin reevaluating his killing of Heleran. Yes, Heleran was an enemy combatant. Kaladin doesn't owe him any pity or remorse especially with how brutally he killed Kaladin's squad mates. By all accounts Heleran was faceless monster deserving of death and yet later he meets someone who was deeply hurt by Heleran's passing. By all rights, he doesn't feel guilty for having killed her brother but can't ignore the pain he's caused to Shallan in having done so. Like I said it could have been used as a stepping stone where Kaladin starts to have doubts about fighting and being forced to kill.

I'm certain that someone could come up with a better idea but at this point I can only speculate since I doubt it will be brought up again.