therunner he/him Posted December 30, 2024 Posted December 30, 2024 (edited) 2 hours ago, Sedside said: Quote I think you're just flat-out wrong on that one, sorry. Oh, well, I can't possibly disprove this ultimate argument, so thank you for the discussion. @MagicMaggot does make arguments, you just didn't engage with them. They are right below the one sentence you quoted, in case you overlooked it. Quote What I know about deadeyes so far, is that that transformation is supposed to be almost irreversible. In every scene in Shadesmar in RoW every spren says "deadeyes can't talk/think/whatever", but then Maya talks, thinks, whatever. Is there an explanation to this? I've read the first 3 books 4 times, and I don't think I've seen it. I've read RoW two times, also haven't seen it. I don't think I'm ever going to reread WaT, at least until I know the big picture of where SA as a whole is going, so if you have a consistent in-book (not WoB, please) explanation, I would like to see it We are half-way through the series, why should there be full explanation for it right now? We have partial reasoning in that: Observing or interacting with object/person, forms Connection (seen everywhere in SA) Adolin is the only person seen that treats his Shardblade as more than just a weapon, even before learning its true nature People can be healed/supported by close Connections Adolin 'gives' something to Maya in RoW through their Connection, which seems to kick-start the process in full There can be spiritual 'echoes' of likely future events (Kaladin being good with spear) Adolin's eventual awakening of Maya helped her be slightly more aware even prior to him sending he power (e.g. when she tells him her name in Oathbringer) Also, the spren are simply wrong about deadeyes, unreliable narrator. 2 hours ago, Sedside said: This is as good explanation as any, and I would be totally fine with it, if I didn't know that the process happening between Maya and Adolin is so unique. Shardblades had existed for how long? 1000 years? 2000? Why haven't anyone ever experienced this same thing as Adolin and Maya? Why are all the spren in Shadesmar so sure that turning into deadeyes is irreversible? There also is a WoB saying that healing a deadeye is supposed to be very very hard. So I want to know - what exactly is this "very very hard" thing Adolin has done? Or not Adolin, someone else? Why Maya is supposedly the first deadeye in millenia to heal? If she it not - why haven't we heard of another such cases? Well, there are several factors that were impossible before, and some that are very rare. Before ~10 years ago, there were no Radiants since Recreance. We know that spren forming Nahel Bond makes it easier for others to do the same (Syl complains about how easy other Honorspren have it for example). No wielder of Shardblade was closely related to Bondsmith (and we know that being close to someone is factor, which is why Radiants appear in clusters and seem to be drawn to one another) Urithiru was not functional. As per the comments, being in Urithiru helped Maya greatly. Adolin (despite not swearing Oaths) lives and breathes Ideals of Edgedancers, taking care to pay attention to everyone around him, even animals and inanimate objects. Being so aligned with Intent of the Order of his Shardblade likely helps immensely. This is not fully unique, as e.g. Dalinar (post-Rathalas) seems to be kinda aligned with Oathbringer, as Stormfather notes the sword is not as much in pain. 2 hours ago, Sedside said: I mean, try to get me right, I am a very logical person. I want to see the cause and effect relationship. What I am seeing now: deadeyes can't think or talk, the transformation is believed to be eternal, all the spren we see are 100% sure about it and are very suprised to see the Adolin-Maya interactions. It looks like the author himself is telling me "look, sedside, something very unusual is happening, do you wanna know why?" Ofc I do! But then there is no answer. It's just happening and that's it. Imagine we had the same situation with Kaladin in WoK. Look, Kaladin is the only one left alive from his initial bridge crew. Look, arrows always miss him and his wounds heal quickly. Look, he survived the highstorm. And then no explanation to it. I definitely wouldn't like it. We are half-way through series, and Unoathed are clearly set up for next books. So the answers are coming, just later. And in fact we do see something similar with Kaladin, as there were multiple odd occurrences, that are outside the norm since first book Wind seeming to help him and interacting with him since WoK (explained 4 books later) Kaladin's atium moment in duel in WoR (explained 3 books later by him becoming Herald, who have such powers) Storm parting for Kaladin in O (likely explained 1 book later, by windspren being related to Windrunners) Kaladin being called Son of Tanavast (still not explained even 4 books later, WaT even calls attention to it!) And this is a pattern, e.g. Shallan oddities since WoK are explained partially in RoW, and fully in WaT, full 3-4 books later. Explaining what is happening with Adolin (who is not even one of the main 5 characters) is fully in line with how other things are being explained. 2 hours ago, Sedside said: So I think at this point any guess is as good as any other, and my guess so far based on the numerous other Adolin issues in this series, is that Adolin is a Mary Sue. That is just you not engaging with the material. Adolin's arc breaks suspension of disbelief for you I guess, which is fine, we all have subjective standpoints. But that does not mean there are no reasons for what is happening to him. 2 hours ago, Sedside said: I worded myself badly. What I wanted to say is that the whole sutiation turned out to be very convenient for Adolin. First of all, I thought the tower was enormous, but Adolin managed to meet Sadeas in it anyway. The second point is that Sadeas, in my opinion, acted rather stupid from that point. He let his guards leave him alone with the man that hates him and has anger issues. Sadeas knows both of this for sure. And if that's not enough, he also let himself provoke this young and armed hothead, well-known for his dueling skills. While the Tower is enormous, everyone is exploring it starting from the same point. Them being close is a coincidence, but not an unlikely one. You can just as well complain that e.g. Moash happened to have ended up in a bridge crew with Kaladin, person who was victimized by the same lighteyes. Sadeas felt comfortable provoking Adolin because he saw him as 'honorable', like Dalinar is at the time. He even tells him something along the lines. But, he misjudged Adolin. Plus, Sadeas is likely frustrated that Dalinar is still in power, and is taking it out on 'safe' target. Edited December 30, 2024 by therunner 9
boonboon Posted December 30, 2024 Posted December 30, 2024 3 hours ago, therunner said: Adolin (despite not swearing Oaths) lives and breathes Ideals of Edgedancers, taking care to pay attention to everyone around him, even animals and inanimate objects. Being so aligned with Intent of the Order of his Shardblade likely helps immensely. we have edgedancer at home edgedancer at home: Spoiler 9
MagicMaggot Posted December 30, 2024 Posted December 30, 2024 22 minutes ago, boonboon said: edgedancer at home: Well, edginess is in the name! 2
Isilel Posted December 30, 2024 Posted December 30, 2024 20 hours ago, Sedside said: Is there any explanation to this other than "Adolin is just a really very special kind of a snowflake"? Yes? 1. His treating Mayalaran almost like a person even before he knew that she was one, regularly talking to and confiding in her. Which, granted, could have happened sometime during the last 2K years with someone else too. 2. His learning that she actually was a person. From what we have been shown, even people shortly after the Recreance didn't seem to understand that shardblades had been intelligent spren. 3. His meeting and interacting with her in Shadesmar, which would have been pretty unique for deadblade shardbearers. 4. Them both being present for Dalinar's Unity moment. A one of a kind occurrence. So, there were plenty of rare and unique circumstances that combined around this development to explain why it never happened before. At the same time, there are some unexplained things about Kaladin - like why none of his pre-Bridge 4 owners chose to execute him for escaping, when they did it to everyone else involved. His nascent bond with Syl couldn't have helped him there. And I am content to accept that it was just fate. 4
Asininity Posted December 30, 2024 Posted December 30, 2024 22 hours ago, MagicMaggot said: I didn't get anything of that before this book, to be honest. In Oathbringer he decided which law to follow blindly, and in RoW the closest he came to making an idependent decision was killing Taravangian, which wasn't exactly a moment of character progression for him, and deciding on cleansing Shinovar (if Dalinar agreed), which was kind of an obvious move for him. So I'm surprised somebody would be surprised that the decision issues of the guy who unquestioningly followed anyone who held his rock for years, would have been undone by that. In Oathbringer he rejected Nale's doctrine. In Shin religion he's literal god and Skybreakers seen him as embodiment of Law. Choosing to follow "the will of Dalinar Kholin" over divine authority and mortal law is massive shift in world view if not complete breakdown of his belief system. The whole Crusade is a consequence of rebeling against the laws that made him obey the Oathstone holder. Relying on Dalinar moral compass is no longer blind obedience, he just never does anything to break the trust given to him. Then in Rhythm of War he saves Dalinar from both Nale and Ishar, openly defying the Heralds. Somehow he forgets he can do that in WaT 21 hours ago, Karger said: I think its actually a step up for Dalinar. Being responsible was very important to him personally as a leader but "I need to be responsible" can be kind of arrogant as it implies you are the only adult in the room. One of his biggest issues is that Dalinar is an authoritarian, a dictator. He's literally a warlord so this is not unexpected but it meant that he tended to solve problems unilaterally. Being responsible for yourself is different from being responsible for literally everything. Taravangian kind of went the opposite track. "I'm responsible for everything so I can't be responsible for myself." Dalinar by contrast went "I'm responsible for myself so I can't be responsible for everything." The problem here is Dalinar rejected responsibility for his failings. He allowed to be manipulated by Odium, Honor, Cultivation, Hoid and Nohadon for all we know. Now broken Heralds, crippled Radiants and remnants of Coalition will have to suffer because of his betrayal of Honor. Setting entire universe on fire and forcing Shards to do what he believes is right, isn't exactly improvement of his authoritarian ways. He just went from bullying high princes to bullying gods, which I admit is pretty damn cool. 15 hours ago, AlmightyGir said: I think it's also important to point out that the most important aspect is Intent. People can speak the first words of Radiance all they like, but if their Intent behind the words isn't correct, they won't be accepted at the first ideal. Which was pretty much retconned by revelation that Honor does not care. Regarding Adolin: The biggest issue I have with him is that he’s exempt from the consequences and limitations that other characters have to fight for. Murdering an important political figure? Pfft, who cares—it felt good. Rejecting oaths? His spren loves him anyway. Losing a leg? He’s still the best duelist on the planet. There’s no significant progress on his part. His strengths remain, and his weaknesses are undefined. He’s supposedly dealing with feelings of inadequacy in the Radiant era, but somehow, he still comes out on top every time. Soloing a Thunderclast? Sure, why not—never mind that those things have killed Heralds before, right? There are some great themes in his story: a demigod being thrown back into the world of mortals, except he never truly confronts the fragility of life. A master swordsman getting crippled and losing his only purpose in life, but that conflict is resolved in just one chapter. I can buy into Adolin forging a connection with his gear - after all, he has dedicated nearly half his life to it. But summoning ten full sets out of nowhere? Granting Shards to his "squires"? What is he now, a Bondsmith? A Windrunner? He taps into multiple powers while ignoring the limitations that the entire series revolves around. It not only feels wrong - abrupt, unearned, and cheap - but it also diminishes his own achievements. Unless it’s revealed to involve another Shard, I’ll continue to be upset about it. Sanderson admitted that Adolin wasn’t originally part of the main cast, but writing him was so fun that he decided to keep him. That’s not even plot armor—he wasn’t included in the plot to begin with, he simply gets preferential treatment and its jarring. 7
MagicMaggot Posted December 30, 2024 Posted December 30, 2024 (edited) 48 minutes ago, Asininity said: In Oathbringer he rejected Nale's doctrine. I don't think so. Nale told him to decide on a third ideal and explained the rules, and Szeth decided to follow Dalinar's judgement, staying within the outlined rules. It was all within the limits of Nale's doctrine, even if it wasn't exactly Nale's will. And Shin religion didn't really play into the scene as it was written at all. Szeth didn't event think about the fact that in choosing Dalinar he rejected a herald as a guide, and Nale himself told him that he didn't think his judgement could be trusted, since he was "getting worse". So it was always between the law itself and Dalinar. He also prefaces his choice of an ideal with ""I don’t trust myself, aboshi,” Szeth whispered. “I cannot see the right any longer. My own decisions are not trustworthy.”", which is the core of what we are tackling in WaT, so he certainly didn't move beyond his problems here, and it indeed was himself submitting to Dalinar as if his word was law. "“I serve Dalinar Kholin,” Szeth-son-son-Vallano whispered. His face, for some reason, was streaked with grey. “I cannot know truth, so I follow one who does.”" 48 minutes ago, Asininity said: The whole Crusade is a consequence of rebeling against the laws that made him obey the Oathstone holder. Not really. As WaT showed quite clearly, Szeth believes he was never truthless, because he thinks he was right. The Desolation came, and he still thinks the Honorbearers are in the grip of an Unmade. It's not that it was wrong for a truthless to follow the oathstone, it was that he was never truthless, because the laws were wrongly applied to him, which he realized back in WoR, when the Everstorm came. And thus he sets out on a quest to cleanse his home. And in RoW, when his spren greenlit the quest, it was explicitly a quest about judging the truth, and acting accordingly: Quote “We need to discuss your crusade. You are a year into your current oath, and I am pleased and impressed with your dedication. You are among the most vigilant and worthy of men. I would have you earn your Plate. You still wish to cleanse your homeland?” Szeth nodded. Behind, Dalinar laughed. He didn’t seem to have noticed Szeth’s momentary departure. “Tell me more of this proposed crusade,” the highspren said. It had not blessed Szeth with its name, though Szeth was its bonded Radiant. “Long ago, my people rejected my warnings,” Szeth said. “They did not believe me when I said the enemy would soon return. They cast me out, deemed me Truthless.” “I find inconsistencies to the stories you tell of those days, Szeth,” the highspren said. “I fear that your memory, like those of many mortals, is incomplete or corrupted by the passage of time. I will accompany you on your crusade to judge the truth.” “Thank you,” Szeth said softly. “You may need to fight and destroy those who have broken their own laws. Can you do this?” “I … would need to ask Dalinar. He is my Ideal.” I really can't see any repetition in his arc here, only a logical continuation. Edited December 30, 2024 by MagicMaggot 9
therunner he/him Posted December 30, 2024 Posted December 30, 2024 (edited) 2 hours ago, boonboon said: we have edgedancer at home edgedancer at home: Reveal hidden contents ...Well Though I will say that him killing Sadeas was more than justified. The man tried to have him killed several times, and his plan killed some of Adolin's close friends. Adolin suspected him since day one, so when provoked one time too many, removed the threat. 1 hour ago, Asininity said: In Oathbringer he rejected Nale's doctrine. In Shin religion he's literal god and Skybreakers seen him as embodiment of Law. Choosing to follow "the will of Dalinar Kholin" over divine authority and mortal law is massive shift in world view if not complete breakdown of his belief system. It is a shift yes, but not a change from being a follower. He even literally says to Nale in Oathbringer that perhaps he was simply forced to follow the wrong men when choosing to swear himself to Dalinar. So he still does not believe that him following others is wrong, just that he did not follow the right people. Quote Then in Rhythm of War he saves Dalinar from both Nale and Ishar, openly defying the Heralds. Somehow he forgets he can do that in WaT He never defies Nale in Rhythm of War, he still respects him as his leader, even if he is not following him to Singers side (something Nale is fine with). Ishar he never swore to follow, and more importantly, only acts against him in moment of emotional anguish, not out of any calm reasoning. 1 hour ago, Asininity said: The problem here is Dalinar rejected responsibility for his failings. He allowed to be manipulated by Odium, Honor, Cultivation, Hoid and Nohadon for all we know. Now broken Heralds, crippled Radiants and remnants of Coalition will have to suffer because of his betrayal of Honor. Dalinar is a man, Odium, Honor, Cultivation and even Hoid are effectively gods, there is little responsibility there. Some sure, but being manipulated is not something you can blame the victim for, especially if there is such huge difference in power disparity. He never chose to be manipulated, he tried his best, put his trust in people who should have been on his side, and near the end realized it was a mistake. Plus if other orders are anything to go by, higher Oaths of Bondsmiths would likely be about letting go of control and letting others be responsible as well. There is a bit of a theme in WaT about breaking Oaths to follow the same Oaths (Sigzil and his spren, Szeth and 5th Ideal, and possibly Dalinar). Where did Honor or Cultivation take responsibility for their failings? Or other Shards? Quote Setting entire universe on fire and forcing Shards to do what he believes is right, isn't exactly improvement of his authoritarian ways. He just went from bullying high princes to bullying gods, which I admit is pretty damn cool. That is not why he did it. Dalinar realized he simply cannot win the conflict the way it is set up, Roshar as a whole was trapped in stalemate for millennia, largely due to Tanavast's mistakes. Putting more Oaths on top of the already strained system would not do anything but delay the inevitable. So instead of trying to solve the problem within those predetermined confines, he flips the board. Shards can no longer ignore their responsibility, power of Honor will have more space to grow (and close contact with emotions through Odium will likely help), and Roshar is no longer locked in eternal war between man and singers and can move on. Is it perfect or even great solution? Hell no. But it is the first time since humans arrived from Ashyn, that the conflict actually materially changes and shifts. (There was a chance for at least some shift with BAM, but Tanavast ruined that). Quote Which was pretty much retconned by revelation that Honor does not care. No it was not. The system of Oaths does care about Intent, power of Honor does not. There is a difference. 1 hour ago, Asininity said: The biggest issue I have with him is that he’s exempt from the consequences and limitations that other characters have to fight for. Murdering an important political figure? Pfft, who cares—it felt good. Rejecting oaths? His spren loves him anyway. Losing a leg? He’s still the best duelist on the planet. That is simply not correct. Killing Sadeas had major consequences, Battle of Thaylen fields is direct consequence of that act. His rejection of Oaths means that he lost a leg, likely permanently. Also, if Adolin were Radiant, he likely could have done more in Azir, so that the dome never fell in the first place. After losing a leg he isn't the best duelist on the planet anymore, but he is still pretty good Quote There’s no significant progress on his part. His strengths remain, and his weaknesses are undefined. He’s supposedly dealing with feelings of inadequacy in the Radiant era, but somehow, he still comes out on top every time. He loses pretty often, if it was not for Radiants he would have died in: WoK, at the battle of Tower (saved by Kaladin) WoR At the duel (saved by Kaladin) At the Tower (saved by Kaladin and Shallan) Oathbringer At theylen fields, where he was mortally wounded by Thunderclast (saved by Renarin) Rhythm of War In the fight against Emuli (saved by Maya, the first time him being saved is due to his own actions) Wind and Truth Against Heavenly Ones (saved by Shallan, multiple times) Against Thunderclast (again heavily, perhaps mortally wounded, saved by Edgedancer) After the line breaks in the dome (saved by his Honor guard, and the fact that Regals mostly rush out) Against Abidi (saved by his plate spren) Adolin keeps putting himself in danger to try and help, because it is right thing to do, and often survives only because of help of others. Quote Soloing a Thunderclast? Sure, why not—never mind that those things have killed Heralds before, right? Both times Adolin fights Thunderclast he sustain heavy if not mortal wounds, only timely appearance of first Renarin and second the Edgedance saves his life. Quote A master swordsman getting crippled and losing his only purpose in life, but that conflict is resolved in just one chapter. He kinda couldn't afford to wrestle with that, since they needed anybody to try and keep the line (and they failed I'll note). Though I do agree it would have been nice to see him grapple with that after the dust settles. 1 hour ago, Asininity said: I can buy into Adolin forging a connection with his gear - after all, he has dedicated nearly half his life to it. But summoning ten full sets out of nowhere? Granting Shards to his "squires"? What is he now, a Bondsmith? A Windrunner? He taps into multiple powers while ignoring the limitations that the entire series revolves around. It not only feels wrong - abrupt, unearned, and cheap - but it also diminishes his own achievements. I don't see it as diminishing his achievements, but as culmination of them. He spent the entire series so far seeing everyone around him get more and more powerful, while he stays the same. These also keep trying to get him to give up Maya, so that he may bond a spren like they do, but he refuses. Still, he tries to do the right thing again and again, putting himself in danger to help others, and trying to help even in little moments (keeping Kaladin company when he is having a depressive episode, being accepting of Shallan, everything with Maya, saving Notum, etc.), never once getting a tangible reward for it. And at the end of WaT, facing near certain death against Abidi, his actions are finally rewarded, and save not just him, but Azir. Mechanically speaking, we have little idea of what happened there, but then again, we are only at the mid point of the series. Quote Unless it’s revealed to involve another Shard, I’ll continue to be upset about it. Well there it the whole fourth moon thing, so something is happening on Roshar in general. Personally I suspect it has something to do with Valor. Edited December 30, 2024 by therunner 7
Treamayne Posted December 30, 2024 Posted December 30, 2024 (edited) 9 hours ago, Sedside said: I mean, try to get me right, I am a very logical person. I want to see the cause and effect relationship. I'm sorry if I misunderstood. I thought you wanted evidence from within Stormlight Archive, without reference to the rest of the Cosmere and with minimal WoBs for explanation. I am not trying to change your opinion, you are entitled to how you feel about the book and series. I thought I was just answering your question with evidence I thought you were requesting. May I please suggest that you consider a separate thread using the appropriate [Support] or [Discuss] tag so we know if you are hoping to find like-minded fans or are looking to discuss possible evidence and foreshadowing you may have missed? Summary: Spoiler That’s where these tags come in. After a lot of discussion, we’ve come up with a simple two-tag model: [Discuss] and [Support]! [Discuss] should be used to signal that you are open to: More in-depth digging into a topic Disagreements or challenges to your ideas Debate and collaborative theorycrafting [Support], on the other hand, indicates that you want to: Talk about something that bothers you, without being criticized for being bothered Express joy, appreciation, or enthusiasm, knowing that others in the thread will respond with the same vibe Have a more casual conversation, avoiding nitpicking and debate “But what is a tag and how do I use it?” I hear you asking. Basically, using [Discuss]/[Support] will function the same as the tags in topic titles that indicate spoilers. Simply add the appropriate tag to the end of your topic title in square brackets, like so: THEORY! Aons are Shardblades in Disguise! [Discuss] Way of Kings Needs More Balat POVs [Support] And of course, keep spoilers out of topic titles! In the end it comes down to that we don't know exactly what is happening yet. There is a lot of foreshadowing and evidence that will hopefully lead to a full explanation in the back-five. We don't know that Adolin is the first to have a bond with their Deadeye - we only now he is the only one we see on screen. Without access to Shadesmar or understanding of the nature of Deadeyes, anybody who may have started a similar process in the last 2000 years since the Recreance would be unlikely to experience any benefit from such a bond beyond the shortened summoning time Adolin sees at the Battle of Thaylen Field (7 heartbeats instead of 10). And if warriors in the past were starting to experience an advantage like that, why would they tell anybody and lose their advantage? I'm sorry if I misunderstood. Hope that helps. Edited December 30, 2024 by Treamayne SPAG 1
Soccorro Posted December 30, 2024 Posted December 30, 2024 41 minutes ago, therunner said: Killing Sadeas had major consequences, Battle of Thaylen fields is direct consequence of that act. I think they’re talking about consequences for Adolin. He didn’t suffer any. He didn’t even felt bad about it and you are right all this people were killed because of him. While there’re some external consequences Adolin himself never suffers consequences of his choices. He also has the thickest plot armour in the series. Each book has a situation when he’s in mortal danger and each time something or someone arrives to save his ass in the last moment 3
Treamayne Posted December 30, 2024 Posted December 30, 2024 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Soccorro said: I think they’re talking about consequences for Adolin. He didn’t suffer any. He didn’t even felt bad about it and you are right all this people were killed because of him. While there’re some external consequences Adolin himself never suffers consequences of his choices. He also has the thickest plot armour in the series. Each book has a situation when he’s in mortal danger and each time something or someone arrives to save his ass in the last moment Personally, in this specific case (Adolin/Sadeas) I think the Jim Butcher quote applies. Grave Peril Ch 39: Spoiler “I’m not a philosopher, Harry,” he said. “But here’s something for you to think about, at least. What goes around comes around. And sometimes you get what’s coming around.” He paused for a moment, frowning faintly, pursing his lips. “And sometimes you are what’s coming around.” - Michael Carpenter It's not that Adolin didn't get his Karma for killing Sadeas, it's that Adolin was Karma for everthing Sadeas had done up to that point, as well as what he intended to continue doing. WoBs: Spoiler Quote Blightsong (paraphrased) Was Adolin's murder of Sadeas him falling under the influence of Odium, or was that all him? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) That was all Adolin. Minicon 2015 (April 2, 2015) Quote Questioner Was it moral for Adolin to kill Sadeas? Brandon Sanderson Which morality scheme are you looking for? Questioner Yours. Your personal morality. Brandon Sanderson My personal morality. It depends on the day. That one's on a line. I would say yes. There's a little bit of-- there's enough chaotic good in me. I would generally put myself in neutral good. But there's enough chaotic good in me to say, "Yeah, that guy asked for it. He betrayed you, he was threatening your family." I would side on Adolin's side, I think. Orem signing (Dec. 21, 2017) Quote Questioner What Jasnah did, in the first book, with Shallan in the alleyway and what happened at the end of this book... between Adolin and the other character [Sadeas]. Would you put them on the same level? Or would you say that what Adolin did was maybe a little bit darker? Brandon Sanderson I would say that what Adolin did was less dark, personally... It just depends on your perspective, but personally I say what Adolin did was something that needed to be done and no one else was capable of doing. Questioner Would you say that it's going to have any ramifications for him down the line? With how it was handled? Brandon Sanderson Oh it's definitely—how it's handled, definitely there are ramifications, lots of ramifications. And there are certain characters who would think that what he did is totally, totally, totally wrong. Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014) Quote Questioner I am very convinced that Adolin, with the events that happen with the last book. You're sending him down a like a dark path. Is he possibly going to be a-- *questioningly* Antagonist? Protagonist?-- A bad, eventually? Or is he-- Brandon Sanderson I'm going to say this, the things that Adolin did do not contradict some of the moralities on Roshar, in fact they follow them directly. Some of the moralities on our planet would say what he did is the right thing to do. I think treating it as a "dark path" is too reductionist to say. There are people who would seriously argue, and they would have a good argument, that what Dalinar was doing by leaving Sadeas around was a good idea. And then there are other people who would say "You know what Sadeas did was a challenge and it was rightly then responded to" and then there are people who would say it was absolutely immoral. So, it depends on your philosophy. What would Honor say? Well, Honor's dead, so-- *lots of laughter* You know Honor would not have been behind that action, but Honor's dead. Firefight Chicago signing (Feb. 20, 2015) Quote Questioner (paraphrased) In a recent WoB, you have stated you considered Adolin to be young, hotheaded, and impulsive. However, the narrative of Oathbringer seems to draw a very different portrayal of Adolin: he comes across as very level-headed. Hence, has Adolin's character changed since the early books? Should readers interpret Adolin as level-headed or impulsive? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) It's not really my place to argue questions like this--I need to write the text, and leave it for readers to interpret. However, I see Adolin (though growing and changing) still as being hotheaded. He refuses the throne, he repeatedly takes on foes much bigger and more dangerous than himself, he leads the charge in the assault on the palace, he decides to bring everyone to his tailor without consulting them on the idea. Adolin is a guy who follows his gut. At the same time, he's a trained duelist--and has been prepared for battlefield command since his childhood. When you're in the middle of a war (or an event like the collapse of Kholinar) you need to be able to take command and make decisions. He'd be a terrible soldier and commander if he couldn't do this. The fact that, despite his training, he does things like attack Sadeas and try to take on a Thunderclast by himself is the proof of his character. Miscellaneous 2019 (Dec. 25, 2019) Quote Sweetness What would the Willshapers think about Adolin killing Sadeas? Brandon Sanderson The Willshapers would probably be okay with that. Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014) I may be wrong, but it seems like we are trying to apply modern Earth morals and philosophies to a fantasy character, setting, and event. Our morals don't apply - and even Rosharan moral schema are mixed on if Adolin's actions would be justified or require punishment. I would say Sadeas got what he deserved, but I think he really deserved more pain than he received. Edited December 30, 2024 by Treamayne SPAG 6
Soccorro Posted December 30, 2024 Posted December 30, 2024 18 minutes ago, Treamayne said: it seems like we are trying to apply modern Earth morals and philosophies to a fantasy character, setting, and event. Our morals don't apply - and even Rosharan moral schema are mixed on if Adolin's actions would be justified or require punishment. No, it was stated that Adolin’s actions do require punishment, that’s the problem. Kholins spent the whole entity of book 2 to find the way to deal with Sadeas “legally”. I don’t think hiring assassin who would do what Adolin did is a problem for Kholin house. Dalinar could kill Sadeas any moment he wanted, but he wanted to do it “right” and he knew that murder would turn Sadeas house against him (exactly what happened in book 3). It was also stated that by Alethi’s law killing a high prince = killing a king and punishment is either execution or exile. It was such a huge problem in book 2 but it disappeared in book 3 completely. It’s also weird that Dalinar’s and Jasnah’s actions from book 1 came back to bite them in the ass in book 5, Jasnah’s “lesson” during debates and Dalinar beating Elhokar. Was beating Elhokar right? Yes, it needed to be done because Elhokar was ruining everything and people of Roshar suffered because of it. Was it less dark than Sadeas murder? Also yes. And yet Dalinar’s suffers consequences while Adolin doesn’t. 3
therunner he/him Posted December 30, 2024 Posted December 30, 2024 (edited) 1 hour ago, Soccorro said: I think they’re talking about consequences for Adolin. He didn’t suffer any. He didn’t even felt bad about it and you are right all this people were killed because of him. While there’re some external consequences Adolin himself never suffers consequences of his choices. As tremayne says, in that case, Adolin was the consequences for Sadeas. Perhaps, in time, there will be more personal consequences for Adolin, but likely not. There are no consequences for Kaladin when he killed Amaram, who was also a high prince. Quote He also has the thickest plot armour in the series. Each book has a situation when he’s in mortal danger and each time something or someone arrives to save his ass in the last moment No more than other characters. E.g. Kaladin always either swears an Ideal just in time (WoK, WoR, RoW, WaT), or someone else swears it and saves him (O, WaT). 22 minutes ago, Soccorro said: No, it was stated that Adolin’s actions do require punishment, that’s the problem. Kholins spent the whole entity of book 2 to find the way to deal with Sadeas “legally”. I don’t think hiring assassin who would do what Adolin did is a problem for Kholin house. Dalinar could kill Sadeas any moment he wanted, but he wanted to do it “right” and he knew that murder would turn Sadeas house against him (exactly what happened in book 3). Yes, Dalinar wanted to do it 'right', and failed every time. No one else considers what Adolin did to be a problem, because it was reasonable. If Jasnah was there, she likely would have already hired assassin to do it, but she wasn't. And the expected consequences (Sadeas princedom turning against them) did happen, so the story follows what it established. Quote It was also stated that by Alethi’s law killing a high prince = killing a king and punishment is either execution or exile. It was such a huge problem in book 2 but it disappeared in book 3 completely. Not exactly. One, the context changed completely. In first two books, there actually was Alethkar as kingdom, in Oathbringer they are at best kingdom in exile. Laws are only as strong as the power behind them, and in Urithiru Dalinar is the ultimate power. Two, Alethi Law de jure and de facto are two different things. De Jure sure, killing high prince is a big no no. But de facto all that matters is if you can get away with it, as Sadeas himself demonstrates in books one and two. Throughout Oathbringer everyone thinks Dalinar did it, and most consider it fine. They are barely 20 years separated from being united by bloody conquest, they don't have our sensibilities in the slightest. Dalinar is trying to get them there, but most Alethi are not there yet. TL;DR: De jure Sadeas should have been exiled for his attempted murder on high prince Dalinar, but since he had enough plausible deniability (even though everyone understood what happened), they let it go. Adolin then killing Sadeas is seen as them settling score, and in fact throughout Oathbringer everyone thinks Dalinar ordered the killing and consider it as a reasonable reaction. Edited December 30, 2024 by therunner 4
Treamayne Posted December 30, 2024 Posted December 30, 2024 (edited) 5 hours ago, Soccorro said: Kholins spent the whole entity of book 2 to find the way to deal with Sadeas “legally”. Do you have a source for that? I cannot find "legally" anywhere in WoR. The mention of legality is in reference to the Slaver Profession: WoR Ch: 11 Spoiler Slavers. She shoved down an initial burst of panic. Slaving was a perfectly legal profession. Most of the time. Only this was the Frostlands, far from the rule of any group or nation. Who was to say what was legal here and what was not? Be calm, she told herself forcefully. Yes Adolin observes that attacking Sadeas in the Stormshelter without provocation could result in Execution; but mostly Dalinar wanted to deal with Sadeas in a way that matched Dalinar's Morals, not Alethi Legal code (though the Dueling Conventions were mentioned as code regarding how to challenge the duel). WoR Ch 50: Spoiler “Young Adolin,” Sadeas said. “What do you think of my coat?” Adolin took a gulp of wine, not trusting himself to reply. I should just get up and walk away. But he didn’t. A small part of him wished for Sadeas to provoke him, push away his inhibitions, drive him to do something stupid. Killing the man right here, right now, would likely earn Adolin an execution—or at least an exile. It might be worth either punishment. “You’ve always been so keen-eyed when it comes to style,” Sadeas continued. But, Adolin was not an assassin, nor was he acting as one in WoR Ch 89. Even the author notes that it would be contestable under Alethi code that Sadeas, in that scene, issued a challenge and clearly threatened the whole Kholin Family - and Adolin only responded to the Challenge. Dalinar notes way back in WoK that Alethi society regards verbal insult as a challenge to duel. Spoiler WoK Ch 15: Spoiler Adolin looked at him, blue eyes alight with rage, but he did not summon his Blade. Dalinar turned his attention to Sadeas, speaking very softly, very pointedly. “Sadeas. Surely I did not just hear you openly—before the king—call my son useless. Surely you would not say that, as such an insult would demand that I summon my Blade and seek your blood. Shatter the Vengeance Pact. Cause the king’s two greatest allies to kill one another. Surely you would not have been that foolish. Surely I misheard.” Everything grew still. Sadeas hesitated. He didn’t back down; he met Dalinar’s gaze. But he did hesitate. “Perhaps,” Sadeas said slowly, “you did hear the wrong words. I would not insult your son. That would not have been…wise of me.” WoB exerpt, posted in previous post: Spoiler Brandon Sanderson I'm going to say this, the things that Adolin did do not contradict some of the moralities on Roshar, in fact they follow them directly. Some of the moralities on our planet would say what he did is the right thing to do. I think treating it as a "dark path" is too reductionist to say. There are people who would seriously argue, and they would have a good argument, that what Dalinar was doing by leaving Sadeas around was a good idea. And then there are other people who would say "You know what Sadeas did was a challenge and it was rightly then responded to" and then there are people who would say it was absolutely immoral. So, it depends on your philosophy. I do not think the situation is nearly as cut-and-dried as you seem to think, unless you have some references I may have missed. Would it have been prudent to show this discussion on-screen rather than implying it happened in the 1 year gap between OB and RoW? Sure. Is it obvious that Adolin deserves "Exile or Death" No, I do not think that is obvious at all. Edited December 30, 2024 by Treamayne SPAG 5
+Oltux72 he/him Posted December 30, 2024 Posted December 30, 2024 On 12/29/2024 at 4:36 PM, Sedside said: I don't mind Adolin not swearing oaths. He can refuse to swear oaths and remain an ordinary human like 99.9% of Rosharans. What I don't like is that he both refuses to swear oaths and still gets his superpowers. I read it as a violation of the series philosophy power = responsibility = oaths. Now we have special case for Adolin "you can have power without responsibility". Heralds, Fused, Regals, regular Shardbearers, the Shards, Vasher, Lift, And he is not alone. Yes there was a side of the story that subscribed to that philosophy. It lost. The story was a contest between two sides, not a story that started with this basic assumption. 12 hours ago, Sedside said: I'm not saying the subplot has no merit. I'm saying Adolin's participation in it had no merit. The way it was written and addressed to further had no merit. Adolin thinking about how satisfying it felt to shove a knife into Sadeas's eye and then becoming a White Knight everyone adores without any noticeable (for me) processing of what he has done. Ending an annoyance? It showed his character. Adolin is not just somebody who only fights for sport or as a part of his duties. He is a killer. A nice killer, but a killer nonetheless. On 12/24/2024 at 11:27 PM, bmcclure7 said: Im disappointed with WAT as it themes contradict the themes of oathbringer oathbringer was all about accepting responsibility. WAT all about rejecting responsibility by embracing the lie of nuance which is just a secular version of the Devil made me do it. Sort of. Literally you are right. It is about accepting what you did and who you are. Denial about that is wrong. But that is not the same thing as facing consequences for it. I am afraid as fandom we need to make up our collective minds. We cannot be disappointed about Adolin facing no consequences for mudering Sadeas, but still mourn Elhokar's death. Nor should we accept Jasnah on the throne of Alethkar.
Asininity Posted December 30, 2024 Posted December 30, 2024 (edited) I honestly don't care for nitpicking interpretations of specific passages or definitions of particular words. It's the very reason why so many readers found WaT distasteful which is the point of this thread. 6 hours ago, MagicMaggot said: I don't think so. Nale told him to decide on a third ideal and explained the rules, and Szeth decided to follow Dalinar's judgement, staying within the outlined rules. It was all within the limits of Nale's doctrine, even if it wasn't exactly Nale's will. And Shin religion didn't really play into the scene as it was written at all. Szeth didn't event think about the fact that in choosing Dalinar he rejected a herald as a guide, and Nale himself told him that he didn't think his judgement could be trusted, since he was "getting worse". So it was always between the law itself and Dalinar. He also prefaces his choice of an ideal with ""I don’t trust myself, aboshi,” Szeth whispered. “I cannot see the right any longer. My own decisions are not trustworthy.”", which is the core of what we are tackling in WaT, so he certainly didn't move beyond his problems here, and it indeed was himself submitting to Dalinar as if his word was law. "“I serve Dalinar Kholin,” Szeth-son-son-Vallano whispered. His face, for some reason, was streaked with grey. “I cannot know truth, so I follow one who does.”" Not really. As WaT showed quite clearly, Szeth believes he was never truthless, because he thinks he was right. The Desolation came, and he still thinks the Honorbearers are in the grip of an Unmade. It's not that it was wrong for a truthless to follow the oathstone, it was that he was never truthless, because the laws were wrongly applied to him, which he realized back in WoR, when the Everstorm came. And thus he sets out on a quest to cleanse his home. And in RoW, when his spren greenlit the quest, it was explicitly a quest about judging the truth, and acting accordingly: I really can't see any repetition in his arc here, only a logical continuation. It doesn’t matter if religion isn’t explicitly mentioned in that particular scene - the worship of the Heralds is fundamental to Szeth’s character. For him, Nale’s will represents both secular and divine authority. If Szeth’s beliefs were truly unshaken, why would he settle for a seemingly subpar Ideal? His choice to deviate from the established Skybreaker structure (at least as far as we know, barring the discovery of other dissenters) is a clear manifestation of moral agency. I think you’re conflating justice with law. Szeth’s vows were never centered on the law itself—much to Nale’s disappointment. He swore to follow will of a man, as he has seen Dalinar as a better exemplar of Justice, than letter of the law or even the Herald supposed to embody it. As for his Crusade, it was not meant to be retribution for naming him Truthless. What happened to him was unjust but lawful but the point was cleansing corrupted institution that failed to uphold Justice. In essence, Nale believed that the law was the closest approximation of Justice, while Szeth rejected this doctrine outright. For a larger part of WaT Nale is still dedicated to letter of the law and yanks Szeth around like poor puppy. 5 hours ago, therunner said: ...Well Though I will say that him killing Sadeas was more than justified. The man tried to have him killed several times, and his plan killed some of Adolin's close friends. Adolin suspected him since day one, so when provoked one time too many, removed the threat. It is a shift yes, but not a change from being a follower. He even literally says to Nale in Oathbringer that perhaps he was simply forced to follow the wrong men when choosing to swear himself to Dalinar. So he still does not believe that him following others is wrong, just that he did not follow the right people. He never defies Nale in Rhythm of War, he still respects him as his leader, even if he is not following him to Singers side (something Nale is fine with). Ishar he never swore to follow, and more importantly, only acts against him in moment of emotional anguish, not out of any calm reasoning. Dalinar is a man, Odium, Honor, Cultivation and even Hoid are effectively gods, there is little responsibility there. Some sure, but being manipulated is not something you can blame the victim for, especially if there is such huge difference in power disparity. He never chose to be manipulated, he tried his best, put his trust in people who should have been on his side, and near the end realized it was a mistake. Plus if other orders are anything to go by, higher Oaths of Bondsmiths would likely be about letting go of control and letting others be responsible as well. There is a bit of a theme in WaT about breaking Oaths to follow the same Oaths (Sigzil and his spren, Szeth and 5th Ideal, and possibly Dalinar). Where did Honor or Cultivation take responsibility for their failings? Or other Shards? That is not why he did it. Dalinar realized he simply cannot win the conflict the way it is set up, Roshar as a whole was trapped in stalemate for millennia, largely due to Tanavast's mistakes. Putting more Oaths on top of the already strained system would not do anything but delay the inevitable. So instead of trying to solve the problem within those predetermined confines, he flips the board. Shards can no longer ignore their responsibility, power of Honor will have more space to grow (and close contact with emotions through Odium will likely help), and Roshar is no longer locked in eternal war between man and singers and can move on. Is it perfect or even great solution? Hell no. But it is the first time since humans arrived from Ashyn, that the conflict actually materially changes and shifts. (There was a chance for at least some shift with BAM, but Tanavast ruined that). No it was not. The system of Oaths does care about Intent, power of Honor does not. There is a difference. That is simply not correct. Killing Sadeas had major consequences, Battle of Thaylen fields is direct consequence of that act. His rejection of Oaths means that he lost a leg, likely permanently. Also, if Adolin were Radiant, he likely could have done more in Azir, so that the dome never fell in the first place. After losing a leg he isn't the best duelist on the planet anymore, but he is still pretty good He loses pretty often, if it was not for Radiants he would have died in: WoK, at the battle of Tower (saved by Kaladin) WoR At the duel (saved by Kaladin) At the Tower (saved by Kaladin and Shallan) Oathbringer At theylen fields, where he was mortally wounded by Thunderclast (saved by Renarin) Rhythm of War In the fight against Emuli (saved by Maya, the first time him being saved is due to his own actions) Wind and Truth Against Heavenly Ones (saved by Shallan, multiple times) Against Thunderclast (again heavily, perhaps mortally wounded, saved by Edgedancer) After the line breaks in the dome (saved by his Honor guard, and the fact that Regals mostly rush out) Against Abidi (saved by his plate spren) Adolin keeps putting himself in danger to try and help, because it is right thing to do, and often survives only because of help of others. Both times Adolin fights Thunderclast he sustain heavy if not mortal wounds, only timely appearance of first Renarin and second the Edgedance saves his life. He kinda couldn't afford to wrestle with that, since they needed anybody to try and keep the line (and they failed I'll note). Though I do agree it would have been nice to see him grapple with that after the dust settles. I don't see it as diminishing his achievements, but as culmination of them. He spent the entire series so far seeing everyone around him get more and more powerful, while he stays the same. These also keep trying to get him to give up Maya, so that he may bond a spren like they do, but he refuses. Still, he tries to do the right thing again and again, putting himself in danger to help others, and trying to help even in little moments (keeping Kaladin company when he is having a depressive episode, being accepting of Shallan, everything with Maya, saving Notum, etc.), never once getting a tangible reward for it. And at the end of WaT, facing near certain death against Abidi, his actions are finally rewarded, and save not just him, but Azir. Mechanically speaking, we have little idea of what happened there, but then again, we are only at the mid point of the series. Well there it the whole fourth moon thing, so something is happening on Roshar in general. Personally I suspect it has something to do with Valor. Regarding Szeth: Raising sword against son(s) of god with intent of preventing him from killing someone, is an act of defiance by any definition. Nature of Oaths: Wasn't it established early by Kaladin, that one can swear stupid Oath in bad faith and still get Radiant powers? Since the thing that actually matters is perception of the knight? I remember reading about humans being untrustworthy since Honor is no longer around. Am I mixing up the books or something? Adolin: There are no consequences for him. It's the crux of the issue. He's supposed to be mere human, but consistently pulls of superhuman stunts. Five minutes after losing a leg, he duels a Fused with millennia of experience, wielding a full set of Shards, all while armed with... a candelabrum. The fact that he almost loses multiple times only makes it worse. He’s repeatedly saved by miracles, like its his bread and butter. Even his unique connection to the dead Shards, something he spent his entire life developing, is suddenly available to ten random people. This completely undermines the effort he put into earning that connection. I don’t think anyone disputes that Adolin is brave, or that his heart is in the right place, but he wears massive plot armor, despite not being part of the plot and constantly breaks rules that are supposed to apply to everyone else. Dalinar: Sorry, but what you are saying makes no absolutely no sense to me. He was manipulated when he burned a city full of children. Should he also reject that little responsibility because of some disparity in power? Dalinar’s entire story has been about internalizing responsibility, yet it seems to regress completely. His rejection of his people to amend the mistakes of Tanavast feels disjointed. Instead of focusing on guiding Roshar, he shifts his attention to the Cosmere, seemingly abandoning his role. He rambles about “doing better,” but his actions contradict this, as he ends up doing the same thing, only on a larger scale. Furthermore, the cycle of conflict was already broken. Both Fused and Radiants had means to permanently kill each other, and the Everstorm would not cease churning until one side emerged victorious. This was the final desolation. Dalinar’s betrayal of Honor and his decision to break his Oaths robbed the Radiants and humanity of their agency in opposing Odium. For someone supposed to be a Guide instead of a Leader I fail to see how that was his decision to make. In the end, the narrative resorts to heavy-handed exposition to convince us this was some kind of galaxy-brain move. It’s all “tell, don’t show,” and it falls flat. Edited December 30, 2024 by Asininity 9
MagicMaggot Posted December 30, 2024 Posted December 30, 2024 (edited) 1 hour ago, Asininity said: I honestly don't care for nitpicking interpretations of specific passages or definitions of particular words. It's the very reason why so many readers found WaT distasteful which is the point of this thread. Ok, but I didn't chose my quotes at random. They were part of my argument. We are talking about a text, so yes, the quote is the authority here. If the text was ambivalent, you could show me, by giving me quotes that recontextualize the quotes that I chose. On the matter itself: As I said and you didn't respond to, Szeth isn't derivating from Skybreaker structure, he is operating within its limits, as laid out by Nale. I'll agree that deciding between the law and a personal exemplar, Szeth made a decision. And you can call that a step in his recovery. But considering it was a decision of what to subjugate his will to, it certainly was quite far from the level of recovery that WaT was about. It was also a decision that was prompted by Nale himself. Szeth was perfectly willing to swear to follow the law after his Skybreaker tests, but Nale told him that things were changing for the Skybreakers, he should postpone his oath, and watch the situation before deciding. With Nale being open about his kind of madness getting worse. I'd give you quotes, but... why bother, I guess. And call it lawfulness or call it justice, Szeth's ideal was to follow Dalinar's will, whatever that would be. Because Szeth would rather trust him to figure out was justice is than himself. Which would make Dalinar's will the law he lives by, but that's semantics. 1 hour ago, Asininity said: As for his Crusade, it was not meant to be retribution for naming him Truthless. What happened to him was unjust but lawful but the point was cleansing corrupted institution that failed to uphold Justice. How is that supposed to convince me without posting a source? I am quite willing to be proven wrong by the text, but I certainly won't be by you just contradicting me. Szeth just didn't go into that much detail on the cleansing of Shinovar, what I posted was as deep as it got. His beef with them clearly started when he started rejecting the title of truthless, though. And WaT told us why, in a manner that didn't contradict anything said before, as far as I know. 1 hour ago, Asininity said: In essence, Nale believed that the law was the closest approximation of Justice, while Szeth rejected this doctrine outright. Which doesn't matter much, if the core of his conviction was still that his own judgement doesn't matter, because he can't be trusted. Which is why it wasn't hard to make him doubt his choice of ideal in WaT, with Szeth being perfectly willing to consider switching to the law, or to Kaladin, if anyone would please just tell him to do it. Edited December 30, 2024 by MagicMaggot 4
therunner he/him Posted December 31, 2024 Posted December 31, 2024 (edited) 12 hours ago, Asininity said: It doesn’t matter if religion isn’t explicitly mentioned in that particular scene - the worship of the Heralds is fundamental to Szeth’s character. For him, Nale’s will represents both secular and divine authority. No it isn't. What is fundamental to Szeth character is his unwillingness to trust himself, so he puts trust into things external. Putting trust in Dalinar is manifestation of that, even as it is small move towards agency. Quote Raising sword against son(s) of god with intent of preventing him from killing someone, is an act of defiance by any definition. I didn't dispute that. I am saying that there is a difference between doing it out of cold reason, and immediate emotions. Szeth didn't decide to act against Ishar in that moment, he acted on impulse. Quote Wasn't it established early by Kaladin, that one can swear stupid Oath in bad faith and still get Radiant powers? Since the thing that actually matters is perception of the knight? No it wasn't established. In fact opposite was established, you have to do it in good faith. Not sure how you could miss this, as repeatedly characters swearing Ideal is not accepted due them not actually meaning it, or when they themselves don't believe in it. Quote There are no consequences for him. It's the crux of the issue. He's supposed to be mere human, but consistently pulls of superhuman stunts. And? There were no consequences for Kaladin throughout WoK back when he was mere human for quite a while. Or even before WoK, when he was in multiple situations where everyone around him got executed except him. If Adolin has 'plot armor' then so did Kaladin. Quote Five minutes after losing a leg, he duels a Fused with millennia of experience, wielding a full set of Shards, all while armed with... a candelabrum. Fused who cannot use his powers, and who is wearing Shardplate for first time, when it has been repeatadly established that Most Fused rely on their powers and aren't necessarily that good combatants without them You have to learn to handle Shardplate, or you 'overdo' it And Adolin less duels him, and mostly spent his time running around avoiding him. When he does decide to fight back, he is quickly overwhelmed and almost loses. Not to mention that in previous book Kaladin repeatedly duels a Fused who has his powers, when Kaladin is in throes of depression and lacks his powers, and yet Kaladin comes out on top everytime. Why is that not plot armor? Quote The fact that he almost loses multiple times only makes it worse. He’s repeatedly saved by miracles, like its his bread and butter. Every character is repeatedly saved by 'miracles' as you phrase it. Kaladin in every books is saved by someone swearing an ideal (sometimes multiple times), RoW is resolved by characters swearing ideals at the right time, Thaylen field is resolved by multiple characters swearing ideals and appearing just when needed, etc. Dalinar is saved like Adolin is three times over the first two books, why is it only a problem when it happens to Adolin? Quote Even his unique connection to the dead Shards, something he spent his entire life developing, is suddenly available to ten random people. This completely undermines the effort he put into earning that connection. It's available to them because he made it available to them. It cannot undermine the effort if it is the result of the effort. Do other Windrunners (who have far easier time than Kaladin and Syl) undermine the effort of Kaladin? Quote I don’t think anyone disputes that Adolin is brave, or that his heart is in the right place, but he wears massive plot armor, despite not being part of the plot and constantly breaks rules that are supposed to apply to everyone else. He has no more plot armor than other characters. He wasn't originally part of the plot, but clearly is now (i.e. state of Azir is fully dependent on him, that is being part of the plot). He breaks no more rules than other Radiants do (Kaladin does things with wind and speed, Shallan and her connection to spiritual realm, Dalinar and his unity moment, Renarin and his future sight, etc.) If the rules is 'broken' it wasn't a rule in the first place. Quote Sorry, but what you are saying makes no absolutely no sense to me. He was manipulated when he burned a city full of children. Should he also reject that little responsibility because of some disparity in power? No. He chose to burn the city, bad act = responsibility. Choosing to trust your allies, good act, not responsible for their failing or betrayal. Is Dalinar responsible for Taravangian betraying them? Or for Mink failing to take back Herdaz? Or for Kaladin failing to bring back Ishar? If he isn't, then he isn't responsible for Tavanast's plan being stupid. Quote Dalinar’s entire story has been about internalizing responsibility, yet it seems to regress completely. He rambles about “doing better,” but his actions contradict this, as he ends up doing the same thing, only on a larger scale. No it wasn't about internalizing responsibility, it was about uniting. Taking responsibility was part of it. Did Kaladin regress on his Oaths to protect when he realized that he cannot protect everyone, or that it is okay to put yourself first sometimes? If not, why is it regression for Dalinar to cede responsibility to others? The book repeatedly hammers home that Dalinar should have worked with others more, and tried less to do it himself. Quote His rejection of his people to amend the mistakes of Tanavast feels disjointed. Instead of focusing on guiding Roshar, he shifts his attention to the Cosmere, seemingly abandoning his role. Tanavast's mistakes are the fundamental reason they are in this position in the first place. It is the root cause of everything that is happening in SA so far, rectifying those mistakes finally let's things move forward, instead of redoing the past again. Thanks to Dalinar, all people's of Roshar are now free of conflict between Odium and Honor. He promised to do right by people of Coalition, and he did. All the countries of Coalition are free of Everstorm and influence of Retribution, it isn't Dalinar's fault that Theyalen and others switched sides. Odium as such isn't dealt with, because Dalinar recognized it was impossible for him to do so without destroying the planet, and others who could have helped decided not to. Quote Furthermore, the cycle of conflict was already broken. Both Fused and Radiants had means to permanently kill each other, and the Everstorm would not cease churning until one side emerged victorious. This was the final desolation. No it wasn't. Having better weapons doesn't break the cycle. The conflict is between Honor and Odium, humans and singers are proxies in effect. What is stopping Odium from making more Fused as the old ones get killed? Or simply empowering regals more? It was the final desolation, because due to everstorm, desolation could no longer end. Quote Dalinar’s betrayal of Honor and his decision to break his Oaths robbed the Radiants and humanity of their agency in opposing Odium. Due to the conditions of the deal, humans and Radians also couldn't oppose Odium, no matter how the contest went. Now Odium is neutered, as it has to hide from rest of Shards, limiting it's direct impact on Roshar. Plus, as Dalinar states, Odium would simply provoke Coalition side into breaking the agreement (e.g. by torturing humans in Odium's territory) and then they would be in worse position then they are now. Quote For someone supposed to be a Guide instead of a Leader I fail to see how that was his decision to make. I have no idea what you mean, Dalinar was the overall leader of Coalition since it was established. Sure Bondsmiths are supposed to be pious and guiding, but as we see in Ishar, how that manifests is...disparate. Plus let's look at Dalinar's options Kill Gavinor The contest is won, Herdaz and Alethkar are back to Coalition. Odium will provoke humans into breaking the treaty (since unlike him, they are not supernaturally bound to keeping his word), rendering the deal null and void in near future. Outcome: War is merely postponed, and once restarted, Coalition is in worse position (singers mature faster, and would now have experience), plus Honor wouldn't be willing to help (as they broke the deal). Don't kill Gavinor Contest is lost, Dalinar (and likely Stormfather) are now Odiums. Odium will again provoke humans into breaking the treaty. Outcome: As above, but Coalition is in even worse position and Dalinar switched sides. Ascend to Honor and keep it Reverts to above scenarios, as Contest is still in place Outcome: as above Ascend to Honor, keep it, and fight Odium Roshar is destroyed + whatever happens as part of Contest Outcome: Roshar is gone and so is everyone on it. Ascend to Honor, and break deals (what Dalinar did) Contest is rendered null and void (as would happen anyway), but Odium is no longer bound to they system (something Dalinar personally never cared about, only due to Hoid he did) and other Shards have to start acting against him. Outcome: Odium can no longer afford to act openly on Roshar and has to hide. Honor has time to get tempered by observation and emotions. Honor combined with Odium forces Odium/Retribution to abide by the terms of the contest (since Dalinar withdrawing could be argued as him losing). Similar to 'Don't kill Gavinor' except Odium doesn't get Dalinar and Stormfather, and Odium/Retribution can no longer act openly on Roshar as he did in the first 5 books. Which of the above would you choose? Quote In the end, the narrative resorts to heavy-handed exposition to convince us this was some kind of galaxy-brain move. It’s all “tell, don’t show,” and it falls flat. It falls flat for you, don't speak for others. Edited December 31, 2024 by therunner 7
Sedside she/her Posted January 1, 2025 Posted January 1, 2025 On 12/31/2024 at 3:00 AM, Asininity said: Furthermore, the cycle of conflict was already broken. Both Fused and Radiants had means to permanently kill each other, and the Everstorm would not cease churning until one side emerged victorious. This was the final desolation. Dalinar’s betrayal of Honor and his decision to break his Oaths robbed the Radiants and humanity of their agency in opposing Odium. For someone supposed to be a Guide instead of a Leader I fail to see how that was his decision to make. In the end, the narrative resorts to heavy-handed exposition to convince us this was some kind of galaxy-brain move. It’s all “tell, don’t show,” and it falls flat. I agree with everything you wrote, but I wanted to discuss this particular part a little bit more. Actually, I don't understand why Dalinar couldn't have just killed Gavinor. I mean, narratively. What would the consequences be for the planet or the cosmere if he did? Not for his conscience or for the reader's sanity or whatever. It goes along with "tell, don't show" you mention, and yes, it falls flat for me as well. This is the main climax of the arc, and I don't remember the reasoning behind it, because I felt no emotions when I was reading it. So, from logical standpoint, what's the pros and cons of killing Gav? Dalinar says that Odium wins both ways - why? Because Dalinar becomes a bad guy if he kills an innocent? Is this about Dalinar dooming Herdaz and Alethkar just to personally remain a good guy? Because he can't think that people will think he's a bad guy, there will be different opinions among people in both cases, people can't possibly agree on anything as a whole. So, he doesn't want to kill Gav just so his conscience would be clean, am I getting it right? What are the mechanical, policital, magical, realmatical cons of killing Gav? If there are none, then Dalinar is irresponsible hypocrite, in my opinion. He could have killed Gav and then abdicate or commit suicide. Yeah, that would be very very very dark, but that's the path Brandon has chosen, he is the one who wrote OC Gav. The other argument is that letting Odium stay on Roshar is a bad option because it will give him time to prepare his armies for the fight with the other gods and planets, and so Dalinar chooses to give him more power and free him to... do the greater good for the cosmere? So instead of sacrificing a single person, who happens to be his nephew, for the greater good, he decides to sacrifice the entire planet, Stormfather, and possibly all of the spren, if the Heralds didn't reforge the Oathpact (but yes, maybe he saw the future that they will), or the Heralds, if they reforge the Oathpact, but can't avoid torture, for even more greater good? How is it different? What's the point of the whole moral dilemma then? I mean, I can agree with his decision, but the way it was written directly contradicts everything, including his entire character arc. 6
Raven Wilder Posted January 1, 2025 Posted January 1, 2025 On 12/30/2024 at 2:00 PM, Asininity said: Furthermore, the cycle of conflict was already broken. Both Fused and Radiants had means to permanently kill each other, and the Everstorm would not cease churning until one side emerged victorious. This was the final desolation. I'm not so sure about that. For one thing, Odium could still motivate the singers and grant them forms of power, even if all the Fused were gone. Also, while Rayse made the original batch of Fused during the first generation of the conflict, and never made any more afterwards, Taravangian's comments about wanting to have Dalinar and Jasnah as Fused servants indicates that creating new Fused is possible. It's not spelled out in the text why Odium wasn't creating loads more Fused all this time - best guess is the agreement between Honor and Odium creates a limit on how many people they can Invest that much of their power in, but once some of the Fused were perma-killed, it opened the door to creating new Fused to replace them. 2
MagicMaggot Posted January 1, 2025 Posted January 1, 2025 3 hours ago, Sedside said: Not for his conscience or for the reader's sanity or whatever. It goes along with "tell, don't show" you mention, and yes, it falls flat for me as well. This is the main climax of the arc, and I don't remember the reasoning behind it, because I felt no emotions when I was reading it. That kinda makes the discussion about it irrelevant, doesn't it? The facts aren't the point, so it would be a bit of a pointless effort to once again explain what was explained in this thread before. That you didn't feel the justification is the point. And that's fair, though not particularly convincing for someone like me who did. 4
+Oltux72 he/him Posted January 1, 2025 Posted January 1, 2025 On 12/31/2024 at 8:36 AM, therunner said: Ascend to Honor, and break deals (what Dalinar did) Contest is rendered null and void (as would happen anyway), but Odium is no longer bound to they system (something Dalinar personally never cared about, only due to Hoid he did) and other Shards have to start acting against him. Outcome: Odium can no longer afford to act openly on Roshar and has to hide. Honor has time to get tempered by observation and emotions. Honor combined with Odium forces Odium/Retribution to abide by the terms of the contest (since Dalinar withdrawing could be argued as him losing). Similar to 'Don't kill Gavinor' except Odium doesn't get Dalinar and Stormfather, and Odium/Retribution can no longer act openly on Roshar as he did in the first 5 books. The thing is that he could have had that result cheaper. He did not even try to renegotiate. 3
MagicMaggot Posted January 1, 2025 Posted January 1, 2025 10 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: He did not even try to renegotiate. Renegotiate to what end, exactly? "Leave us be, kill the guys in the rest of the cosmere instead"? Would that count as responsible? And I think we don't need divine computation powers to see that "and also, paint a giant target on your back, so that all the other shards will immediately focus on you" wouldn't have been on the table. 1
Treamayne Posted January 1, 2025 Posted January 1, 2025 5 hours ago, Sedside said: So, from logical standpoint, what's the pros and cons of killing Gav? Dalinar says that Odium wins both ways - why? Because Dalinar becomes a bad guy if he kills an innocent? Is this about Dalinar dooming Herdaz and Alethkar just to personally remain a good guy? I do not think so. Killing Gav would be "winning" the contest, but Dalinar reached the same conclusion as Jasnah - the results: Herdaz and Alethkar would revert to Radiant control Odium would no longer incite conflict But, Odium's well-establish MO is that the singers could still incite whatever they wanted, and would abuse/kill people in the lands they control to coerce the Radiant side (who are still allowed to fight) into starting Conflict, which would break the contract and invalidate the win. Results Don't kill Gav, Odium wins and has 1000 years to prepare for Cosmere-wide war Kill Gav, Odium coerces the Radiant faction to break the Contract anyway, Odium still wins and has 1000 years to prepare for Cosmere-wide War It's essentially the same thing Odium did to Tanavast, but with mortals globally. Follow his word while manipulating the other side to get teh desired result anyway. 4
Sedside she/her Posted January 1, 2025 Posted January 1, 2025 1 hour ago, Treamayne said: I do not think so. Killing Gav would be "winning" the contest, but Dalinar reached the same conclusion as Jasnah - the results: Herdaz and Alethkar would revert to Radiant control Odium would no longer incite conflict But, Odium's well-establish MO is that the singers could still incite whatever they wanted, and would abuse/kill people in the lands they control to coerce the Radiant side (who are still allowed to fight) into starting Conflict, which would break the contract and invalidate the win. Results Don't kill Gav, Odium wins and has 1000 years to prepare for Cosmere-wide war Kill Gav, Odium coerces the Radiant faction to break the Contract anyway, Odium still wins and has 1000 years to prepare for Cosmere-wide War It's essentially the same thing Odium did to Tanavast, but with mortals globally. Follow his word while manipulating the other side to get teh desired result anyway. Well, it makes sense for Dalinar's reasoning behind his final decision. But in this case it doesn't explain the moral dilemma. Taravangian was talking about killing the innocent, but look, replace "Gav" with "Moash" in your post, does it change anything? Moash is not innocent, but it makes no sense to kill him as well, because of the reasons you've described. And I would have totally understood the outcome if Dalinar went out of the Spiritual Realm with that knowledge and was heading towards the contest already comprehending the fact that he has to find the third way. But he went there, saw Gav and was like "oh, it's Gav, I can't kill Gav, pick someone else". So, the fact that it is Gav, not Moash, is the reason behind Dalinar starting to search for the third option, that eventually lead him to the correct decision! So, in fact, Taravangian's choice of Gav is what made Dalinar even consider it in the first place! So Taravangian's choice of the champion turned out to be wrong. If Taravangian wanted Dalinar to either win or lose the contest, he must have chosen someone Dalinar either would have wanted to kill (like Moash) or someone who was capable of killing Dalinar. But he gave Dalinar the reason to start frantically searching for the other option and also gave him time to do that by freezing Gav! Doesn't this seem stupid to you? Imagine Moash instead of Gav, as much as I don't like Moash OC, it would make so much more sense in terms of the emotional outcome. Dalinar wants to kill him, but he realizes that by killing him he gives Odium what he wants, and he decides to spare Moash to do what's right. Like, he fights Moash, defeats him, raises the sword over him to make the final blow and then suddenly realizes he must not do it, and must instead do what he did in the book. But we are going down absolutely different path. He comes to the contest confident that he must fight his opponent to death, but when it turns out that the opponent is the one he doesn't want to kill, he starts thinking and comes to the right decision. For me, it makes all of it cheap and useless - the contest itself, the preparation for it, and Odium's champion choice with the moral dilemma at its core. The moral dilemma is cheap because in the end the decision lies outside of the moral, but is totally based on the knowledge of the cosmere-wide consequences. The preparation is cheap because it's not the preparation that leads to the correct desicion, but the moral dilemma of the contest. The contest is cheap because the correct choice is to not participate in the contest at all. And at this point I actually even see the poetry in picking Moash as a champion. Kill the guy you hate, but lose in the long term, or sacrifice yourself, break the contract, do the right thing, but let the character everyone hates live. But in the end the choice is between two absolutely bad options and the one undoubtedly good option, which Dalinar eventually chooses. 5
therunner he/him Posted January 1, 2025 Posted January 1, 2025 (edited) 3 hours ago, Oltux72 said: The thing is that he could have had that result cheaper. He did not even try to renegotiate. Why would TOdium renegotiate? Current setup of the contests is nearly ideal for him, what could Dalinar offer him? From his angle, the only variable still in the air is whether Dalinar will serve him as Fused, or if Dalinar will break his morals by killing Gavinor (or substitute any other innocent), the rest is basically determined anyway. Once Dalinar holds Honor, his only other play is to attack Odium directly, but that would destroy Roshar. Ultimately, Dalinar has nothing to negotiate with, because he has nothing to offer to TOdium. Edited January 1, 2025 by therunner 1
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