F-Nicrosil

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

I am incredibly confused about nicrosilminds as a whole. I heard that they store feruchemical talents like a coppermind, but also store investiture like most metalminds?

[alder24]

1 minute ago, CoderDrag0n8 said:

I am incredibly confused about nicrosilminds as a whole. I heard that they store feruchemical talents like a coppermind, but also store investiture like most metalminds?

You should be, they are quite confusing as we don't know a lot about them. There is a difference between how nicrosil works in Malwish medallions and how it works normally for a Feruchemist. In medallions it works like a Coppermind and is more restrictive. We don't know how it works normally unfortunately, I believe it works just like other metalminds - you store a percentage of your investiture, not all of it, and you can tap it later.

What does nicrosil store? It stores investiture. However, it's important to know that Investiture can mean both the raw fuel that feeds the power (like the Mists, or the Dor - that's static and kinetic investiture) and the abilities (Invested Arts, which is innate investiture - investiture that's part of your soul). Brandon has confirmed that F-nicrosil stores invested abilities like Allomancy, Feruchemy, Surgebinding etc, but he didn't confirm if it can store raw investiture like Breaths or the Dor. I believe it can store only powers, innate investiture that grants you Invested Arts, not raw investiture that can fuel those powers.

Spoiler

Pagerunner

When you tap the nicrosil portion of a medallion, will it run out over time? Or is it like a coppermind, where something discrete is taken, used, and returned?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question! Like a coppermind.

General Signed Books 2018 (Oct. 15, 2018)

 

Spoiler

Pagerunner

When you tap the nicrosil portion of a medallion, will it run out over time? Or is it like a coppermind, where something discrete is taken, used, and returned?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question! Like a coppermind.

General Signed Books 2018 (Oct. 15, 2018)

 

Spoiler

kingbirdy (paraphrased)

Could Feruchemical nicrosil be used to store other Invested abilities, such as a Returned Breath or the abilities of the Knights Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, that's possible.

DragonCon 2016 (Sept. 4, 2016)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Would it be possible for someone to store Stormlight in a nicrosil metalmind?

Brandon Sanderson

I will RAFO that for now, but you're thinking the way I want you to be thinking.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

 

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

You should be, they are quite confusing as we don't know a lot about them. There is a difference between how nicrosil works in Malwish medallions and how it works normally for a Feruchemist. In medallions it works like a Coppermind and is more restrictive. We don't know how it works normally unfortunately, I believe it works just like other metalminds - you store a percentage of your investiture, not all of it, and you can tap it later.

What does nicrosil store? It stores investiture. However, it's important to know that Investiture can mean both the raw fuel that feeds the power (like the Mists, or the Dor - that's static and kinetic investiture) and the abilities (Invested Arts, which is innate investiture - investiture that's part of your soul). Brandon has confirmed that F-nicrosil stores invested abilities like Allomancy, Feruchemy, Surgebinding etc, but he didn't confirm if it can store raw investiture like Breaths or the Dor. I believe it can store only powers, innate investiture that grants you Invested Arts, not raw investiture that can fuel those powers.

  Hide contents

Pagerunner

When you tap the nicrosil portion of a medallion, will it run out over time? Or is it like a coppermind, where something discrete is taken, used, and returned?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question! Like a coppermind.

General Signed Books 2018 (Oct. 15, 2018)

 

  Hide contents

Pagerunner

When you tap the nicrosil portion of a medallion, will it run out over time? Or is it like a coppermind, where something discrete is taken, used, and returned?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question! Like a coppermind.

General Signed Books 2018 (Oct. 15, 2018)

 

  Hide contents

kingbirdy (paraphrased)

Could Feruchemical nicrosil be used to store other Invested abilities, such as a Returned Breath or the abilities of the Knights Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, that's possible.

DragonCon 2016 (Sept. 4, 2016)

 

  Hide contents

Questioner

Would it be possible for someone to store Stormlight in a nicrosil metalmind?

Brandon Sanderson

I will RAFO that for now, but you're thinking the way I want you to be thinking.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

 

Thank you! I was once told that if you are burning copper and storing nicrosil, you could tap it and gain the power of copper. Is this correct?

Also, what do you mean by the investiture that feeds the powers? Do you mean like before you burn copper you can store the copper itself into a nicrosilmind, or am I understanding that wrong?

Another thing, it says that nicrosil can store investiture, but wouldn't storing feruchemical powers like a copper mind be part of your spiritweb, and therefore identity? Not investiture?

Thank you,

                  CoderDrag0n8

[Corgen]

5 hours ago, CoderDrag0n8 said:

Also, what do you mean by the investiture that feeds the powers? Do you mean like before you burn copper you can store the copper itself into a nicrosilmind, or am I understanding that wrong?

No, you can burn copper, but store the effect of burning in nicrosilmind and then retrieve this power when you burn copper again, thereby enhancing your burning.

[alder24]

8 hours ago, CoderDrag0n8 said:

Thank you! I was once told that if you are burning copper and storing nicrosil, you could tap it and gain the power of copper. Is this correct?

Burning metals have nothing to do with storing in nicrosil. You don't need to burn anything to be able to store powers, you just have to have them and think "I want to store A-copper" and it will happen. Then you can tap it back. We still don't know how to use these words, we mostly speculate. I believe that by tapping it you could increase your strength of Allomancy. You store 50% of your Allomantic strength, you can tap it and gain that on top of what you already have to have 150% of strength - just like you can do with speed or weight. But that's just speculation. We don't know anything more about F-nicrosil except for those WoBs I've posted earlier. 

8 hours ago, CoderDrag0n8 said:

Also, what do you mean by the investiture that feeds the powers? Do you mean like before you burn copper you can store the copper itself into a nicrosilmind, or am I understanding that wrong?

No. There are three types of investiture - static investiture, kinetic investiture and innate investiture. Static investiture is investiture that isn't doing anything - investiture in metalminds, Stormlight in gemstones, Dor in the jar. Kinetic investiture is investiture that is doing some work - that's investiture detectable by Seekers, that's investiture you get when you burn metals, like when you steelpushing or making a coppercloud, drawing Aons uses kinetic investiture to power it, Stormlight is used as kinetic investiture to power Surges etc. Innate investiture is investiture that's a part of your soul - a part of it responsible for giving you magical powers. Your Allomancy and Feruchemy is contained in the Preservation's fragment in your soul, which is innate investiture. Breaths are innate investiture. Invested Arts are usually innate investiture.

Static investiture is investiture that can be used as a fuel but now is doing nothing, kinetic is investiture that is actively fueling your abilities (when you burn metals), innate is your abilities. 

We don't know what type of investiture can be stored in F-nicrosil. From WoBs and what we saw in Era 2, we know that Innate investiture is stored, but we don't know if you can store static or kinetic investiture. I think you can only store your innate investiture, only parts of your spirit web that can give you abilities. You can store your ability to burn copper, but you can't store anything that could be used to replace your copper reserves, like the Dor, nor you can't just store a coppercloud. 

9 hours ago, CoderDrag0n8 said:

Another thing, it says that nicrosil can store investiture, but wouldn't storing feruchemical powers like a copper mind be part of your spiritweb, and therefore identity? Not investiture?

No, identity is something different. A Spirit Web is a mix of raw investiture, Connections and identity that makes up a soul of a person. Preservation's fragment in every Scadrial gives them Metallic Arts, if it's strong enough. That's raw investiture and Connection to Preservation. We don't fully understand what Identity is, but it's mainly a pointer inside investiture that tells it to whom it belong. Identity doesn't give you powers, your powers are keyed to your Identity, just like all investiture used by you is. That's why a Feruchemist can't use another Feruchemist's metalmind, because it's not keyed to his identity. If you store your identity away, you still have your powers, all our spirit web etc, but you can now create a metalmind with no identity, thus other Feruchemists could use it. It's like using an account with no password protection. Identity does more than that, but as I said we don't fully understand it yet.

[Treamayne]

12 hours ago, CoderDrag0n8 said:

I am incredibly confused about nicrosilminds as a whole. I heard that they store feruchemical talents like a coppermind, but also store investiture like most metalminds?

As @alder24 said, there is only one known, canon use of Nicrosil in the Metallic Arts - everything else is a fan theory based on speculation. That one use is:

• An unsealed NicrosilMind stores an ability, which can be tapped by anybody in a way that is similar to a Coppermind
  • A discrete "item" that is tapped, used and returned.

Brandon has said one of the protagonists for Mistborn Era 3 will be a Nicrosil Ferring so he has reserved all other uses of Nicrosil for those books where they will be explained. WoB:

Spoiler

Argent

You've dropped a few tidbits about the plot of the next Mistborn series over the years. Putting all those things together, we have a nicrosil Ferring Terriswoman hacker recruited for fieldwork in an "Allomancer SWAT team" to chase a Mistborn serial killer. Could you give us a more recent and concise pitch/blurb if the above is no longer accurate?

Brandon Sanderson

Ha. That's not far off, as all of those things still exist in the series, though the weight I'll give them is relative. With the Alloy series covering some of the police procedural aspect of storytelling, I'm inching the outlines slowly away from the SWAT idea and toward more spy thriller--but the SWAT team isn't not gone completely. (Of course, who knows what will happen in the intervening years between now and when I write it.)

Stormlight Three Update #4 (Oct. 4, 2016)

Hope that helps

[Trusk'our he/him]

16 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Brandon has said one of the protagonists for Mistborn Era 3 will be a Nicrosil Ferring so he has reserved all other uses of Nicrosil for those books where they will be explained. WoB:

  Hide contents

Argent

You've dropped a few tidbits about the plot of the next Mistborn series over the years. Putting all those things together, we have a nicrosil Ferring Terriswoman hacker recruited for fieldwork in an "Allomancer SWAT team" to chase a Mistborn serial killer. Could you give us a more recent and concise pitch/blurb if the above is no longer accurate?

Brandon Sanderson

Ha. That's not far off, as all of those things still exist in the series, though the weight I'll give them is relative. With the Alloy series covering some of the police procedural aspect of storytelling, I'm inching the outlines slowly away from the SWAT idea and toward more spy thriller--but the SWAT team isn't not gone completely. (Of course, who knows what will happen in the intervening years between now and when I write it.)

Stormlight Three Update #4 (Oct. 4, 2016)

I believe they're actually planned to be a Nicroburst. The questioner in the WoB could have easily made a slip of the tongue, as we have several other WoBs contradicting this.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/202-barnes-and-noble-book-club-qa/#e5835

Sensitivemuse

Are you going to write more about the Mistborn? There's still those mysterious metals, and it's a brand new world out there now so many possibilities you could do with that!

Brandon Sanderson

I will, someday, write a follow-up trilogy to Mistborn. It will be set several hundred years after the events of the first trilogy, after technology has caught up to where it should be. Essentially, these will be urban fantasy stories set in the same world. Guns, cars, skyscrapers—and Allomancers.

That's still pretty far off, though. The other metals are being revealed on the poster I'm releasing of the Allomantic table. Should be for sale on my website sometime soon, though someone here can probably link to the image I posted of it, which has the other metals explained. (I can't remember where exactly that link is right now.)

Hero of the new trilogy would be a nicrosil Misting.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/189-rfantasy-ama-2011/#e4020

MindCanaries

Why did you settle on a Nicrosil Misting for your second Mistborn trilogy? Did you consider any other types?

Brandon Sanderson

I considered others, but in the end this was one aspect of the magic system I hadn't explored yet but which is very important for the future of the series. I wanted to start establishing it.

 

[Treamayne]

8 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I believe they're actually planned to be a Nicroburst.

There are conflicting WoBs - but, by age, the Ferring version is newer, and also has this supporting the possible change:

Spoiler

Questioner

How can everyone tap nicrosil without being a nicrosil Ferring? Is that a Read And Find Out?

Brandon Sanderson

That's kind of a Read And Find Out.

Questioner

I assume the next book, probably?

Brandon Sanderson

We'll dig into that.

Oathbringer Houston signing (Nov. 18, 2017)

Not to mention that the questioner was Argent - who tends to have other sources of information not in WoBs.

It is also possible that we will see both a Nicroburst and Soulbearer. . .

[Trusk'our he/him]

10 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

There are conflicting WoBs - but, by age, the Ferring version is newer, and also has this supporting the possible change:

  Hide contents

Questioner

How can everyone tap nicrosil without being a nicrosil Ferring? Is that a Read And Find Out?

Brandon Sanderson

That's kind of a Read And Find Out.

Questioner

I assume the next book, probably?

Brandon Sanderson

We'll dig into that.

Oathbringer Houston signing (Nov. 18, 2017)

Not to mention that the questioner was Argent - who tends to have other sources of information not in WoBs.

It is also possible that we will see both a Nicroburst and Soulbearer. . .

Good point. 

I'd much prefer them to be a Soulbearer, actually. Nicrobursting is probably just Allomantic duralumin with extra steps, which we've seen plenty of already. 

A Soulbearer could give us some real insight into Feruchemical Nicrosil and its true limitations and abilities, and it would make more sense how such an individual would fit into the power schemes of the story. 

[Treamayne]

5 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I'd much prefer them to be a Soulbearer, actually. Nicrobursting is probably just Allomantic duralumin with extra steps, which we've seen plenty of already. 

A Soulbearer could give us some real insight into Feruchemical Nicrosil and its true limitations and abilities, and it would make more sense how such an individual would fit into the power schemes of the story. 

Not to mention that the change from AlloSWAT to Metallic Arts Spy Thriller lends better to Soulbearer. A SWAT team likely needs a Nicroburst to one-up the criminal(s) - but Nicrobursting doesn't really fit a Spy story very much - too loud and blatent.

[Isilel]

9 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Nicrobursting is probably just Allomantic duralumin with extra steps, which we've seen plenty of already. 

 

I disagree. Depending on how storing power in Nicrosil actually works, a Nicroburst could potentially use any of the powers by burning respective unkeyed metalminds as well as requisite metals. It would be a bit more limited than what a Soulbearer could do with the same, because it would be just for the length of the burn, but that might be a good thing in the terms of limits.

Also, IIRC the protagonist, or one of them, since a Connector Ferring was also mentioned as one, was supposed to be a Terris Misting, which may add an interesting  wrinkle to their characterization - probably somewhat of a fish out of water growing up and so on.

Edited December 24, 2024 by Isilel

[Treamayne]

50 minutes ago, Isilel said:

I disagree. Depending on how storing power in Nicrosil actually works, a Nicroburst could potentially use any of the powers by burning respective unkeyed metalminds as well as requisite metals.

I think you may be mixing up Feruchemy and Allomancy. For Nicrosil - Nicroburst is the Name of a Nicrosil Misting. Soulbearer is the Name of a Nicrosil Ferring (much like Tineye is the name of a Tin Misting, and WindWhisper is the name of a Tin Ferring). 

[Isilel]

@Treamayne:

I don't think that I am mixing things up. My understanding is that Mistings can burn  unkeyed feruchemical metalminds of their metal and get access to a stored attribute for the duration of the burn. Since it is possible to store all Metalborn powers in Nicrosil, it stands to reason that Nicroburst could theoretically get short -term limited access to any of them, as long as they have the right unkeyed metalminds to burn.

The  Soulbearer Ferrings should be able to access any powers stored in unkeyed Nicrosil metalminds as well, except that they wouldn't need to destroy the metalminds in the process and could better control and modulate the rate of  usage.

[Treamayne]

9 minutes ago, Isilel said:

My understanding is that Mistings can burn  unkeyed feruchemical metalminds of their metal and get access to a stored attribute for the duration of the burn. Since it is possible to store all Metalborn powers in Nicrosil, it stands to reason that Nicroburst could theoretically get short -term limited access to any of them, as long as they have the right unkeyed metalminds to burn.

Please allow me to restate to make sure I understand your hypothesis:

A Nicrosil Misting burns a NicrosilMind (You say unkeyed, but I think you mean unsealed). Assuming a normal Soulbearer's NicrosilMind functions like a Medallion (which we know is not true - but we don't know how they differ), then they would gain whatever ability was stored in the NicrosilMind (for the purposes of the example, let's say F-Steel). So, as long as they are burning, they would be able to Tap an Unkeyed or Unsealed Steelmind (or, possibly Store into a SteelMind). Once the entire Nicrosilmind has been burned, the ability is also lost. 

A Nicrosil Ferring taps an Unkeyed Nicrosil Mind with an ability stored. While Tapping the Nicrosil mind, they would then have the ability to also Store or Tap the example Steelmind. 

Is that in line with your theory?

[Isilel]

@Treamayne:

No, I mean unkeyed, not unsealed. Unsealed metalminds are medallions and BoM and one doesn't need to be a Metalborn to use them. I imagine that burning them also wouldn't work, since the medallions have their own Identity.

Unkeyed metalminds are produced by Identity-less storing and should be useable by relevant Mistings (via burning), as well as by relevant Ferrings through tapping them normally. I.e. a Gold Misting would have been able to heal by burning Kelesina's unkeyed gold health storage.

We don't know how exactly Nicrosil Feruchemy normally works, but yes, if for example it is possible to store some Steel Allomancy in an unkeyed metalmind, then burning said storage should enable a Nicroburst to also burn steel for the duration of the burn of the Nicrosilmind. Now, Nicrosil is a quick-burning metal, so if it's feruchemical storages burn at the same speed, one would have to replenish metals after every push. This would still offer a Nicroburst a lot of flexibility, sharply limited by availability of unkeyed metalminds to burn.

A Soulbearer Ferring would then work like you described.

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

No, I mean unkeyed, not unsealed. Unsealed metalminds are medallions and BoM and one doesn't need to be a Metalborn to use them. I imagine that burning them also wouldn't work, since the medallions have their own Identity.

Unkeyed metalminds are produced by Identity-less storing and should be useable by relevant Mistings (via burning), as well as by relevant Ferrings through tapping them normally. I.e. a Gold Misting would have been able to heal by burning Kelesina's unkeyed gold health storage.

I understand all of that, what I do not understand is how you think an Unkeyed Nicrosilmind would also mean that the stored <ability> is also unkeyed. A Soulbearer Ferring would not have unkeyed (continuing the previous example) F-Steel to store. As far as we know, the only way to have an Unkeyed power in an Unkeyed NicrosilMind is an Excisor. . . which results in an Unsealed Metalmind (hence my confusion about your presence/absence of confusion).

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

if for example it is possible to store some Steel Allomancy in an unkeyed metalmind, then burning said storage should enable a Nicroburst to also burn steel for the duration of the burn of the Nicrosilmind.

Disagree. If Nicrosil works the way you think (I don't agree with that either, but I am aware that it is the common fan theory) you would have to find a way to store Unkeyed A-Steel in an Unkeyed NicrosilMind - the Metalmind being Unkeyed only means a Soulbearer can store or tap to/from the metalmind. It does not mean that the storage itself is also Unkeyed, unless it was Unkeyed when stored.

I will say that I would agree that an Unkeyed Nicrosilmind stored with Unkeyed Allomancy (if it works that way) should allow a Nicroburst Misting burn the associated metal for as long as that storage lasts.

Hope that helps

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

Just as a small question, if nicrosil you store feruchemical powers like a coppermind then wouldn't you no longer be able to use feruchemy to gte your feruchemy back? or is that wrong?

[Treamayne]

12 hours ago, CoderDrag0n8 said:

Just as a small question, if nicrosil you store feruchemical powers like a coppermind then wouldn't you no longer be able to use feruchemy to gte your feruchemy back? or is that wrong?

That is just one of very many unanswered questions, which harkens back to my point in this post - we only know that Fabrial Nicrosil (in a Medallion - and requires an Excisor - whatever that is) stores a Manifestation of Investiture. We do not know that a Soulbearer using Nicrosil does the same thing, or any of the mechanics.

It is all fan-theory until Era 3, when we expect to get answers (hopefully).

Edited December 26, 2024 by Treamayne
SPAG