[Discuss] How the Plains . . .

[Treamayne]

I've seen a bit of chatter on the clash that caused the Shattered Plains, and comparing it to Vin's clash with Ati in Hero of Ages. I had a thought that I wanted to put forth for discussion:

WaT Ch 120:

Spoiler

I, THE GOD HONOR, WALKED A BATTLEFIELD FULL OF BURNING CORPSES. THIS TIME, I DID NOT WEEP. I COULD NOT AFFORD TO WEEP. MY FOLLOWERS NEEDED ME.
<snip>

RAYSE APPEARED BEFORE ME, SETTLING HIS HANDS ON HIS GOLDEN SCEPTER, BEARD BLOWING IN THE WIND. 
<snip>

PIECES OF SOMETHING FALLEN. A … FOURTH MOON? IN SPLINTERS? IT REACTED TO US

So, it seems to me there are two important differences that led to such a drastic difference in the results of the Shards Clashing:

1. Vin and Ati clashed in the Spiritual Realm; Rayse and Tanavast clashed, as Avatars, in the Physical Realm
2. Because they were in the Physical Realm - the splinters of the fourth moon (Possibly Adonalsium's Godmetal, or a Dawnshard being protected by Sleepless) reacted to, and amplified (Hmmm - almost like Nicrosil) the effects of their brief clash

So, it's not that Vin and Ati's clash should have caused more Physical Destruction, it's more likely that this level of destruction was due to factors that did not apply to HoA. 

Thoughts, ideas, evidence of my ignorance?

Edited December 23, 2024 by Treamayne
SPAG

[DiePie]

11 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

So, it's not that Vin and Ati's clash should have caused more Physical Destruction, it's more likely that this level of destruction was due to factors that did not apply to HoA. 

I think the "but one of the shards didn't want to destroy" chull dung was supposed to be cannon, but I like this better. The fourth moon has established investiture-drawing effects, a large concentration of investiture in the physical realm could definitely have pulled it out of orbit because of Newton's third law: If the moon is pulling investiture towards it, the moon is also being pulled towards the investiture.

[The Sovereign]

The clash was not nearly as devastating because Preservation tries to Preserve. By its nature it offset a lot of the damage. 

@DiePie beat me to it. Also to add to the part about the Moon; The 4th Moon was likely made of Duralumin (not Aluminum it was something more) it would indeed block some of the Investiture from Odium & Honor's clash.

Edited December 23, 2024 by The Sovereign

[Treamayne]

6 minutes ago, The Sovereign said:

The 4th Moon was likely made of Duralumin

That seems to be a large assumption without evidence (unless you have some of which I am unaware). The quote in Ch 120:

Spoiler

THEY SHELTERED FROM THE EYES OF GOD? THAT WAS NOT ALUMINUM. IT WAS SOMETHING GREATER. SOMETHING … THAT RESPONDED TO OUR CLASH

Greater than Aluminum does not, to me, imply an alloy - especially when teh Realmatic effect of Duralumin would not fit the effects of the scene (which, if any mundane metal was involved would have to be Nicrosil - bursting and amplifying an effect of somebody else (well two Avatars of Somebody else, in this case)). 

I won't say the deduction is wrong - there is not enough evidence for any definitive conclusion. 
However, the Realmatics invoked and a term "greater than Aluminum" imply either a Godmetal or a Dawnshard (since we already know that Dawnshards amplify surges - which is why the Sleepless made Rysn not-becoming-invested a requirement of their contract). 

[alder24]

22 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I've seen a bit of chatter on the clash that caused the Shattered Plains, and comparing it to Vin's clash with Ati in Hero of Ages. I had a thought that I wanted to put forth for discussion:

WaT Ch 120:

  Reveal hidden contents

I, THE GOD HONOR, WALKED A BATTLEFIELD FULL OF BURNING CORPSES. THIS TIME, I DID NOT WEEP. I COULD NOT AFFORD TO WEEP. MY FOLLOWERS NEEDED ME.
<snip>

RAYSE APPEARED BEFORE ME, SETTLING HIS HANDS ON HIS GOLDEN SCEPTER, BEARD BLOWING IN THE WIND. 
<snip>

PIECES OF SOMETHING FALLEN. A … FOURTH MOON? IN SPLINTERS? IT REACTED TO US

So, it seems to me there are two important differences that led to such a drastic difference in the results of the Shards Clashing:

1. Vin and Ati clashed in the Spiritual Realm; Rayse and Tanavast clashed, as Avatars, in the Physical Realm
2. Because they were in the Physical Realm - the splinters of the fourth moon (Possibly Adonalsium's Godmetal, or a Dawnshard being protected by Sleepless) reacted to, and amplified (Hmmm - almost like Nicrosil) the effects of their brief clash

So, it's not that Vin and Ati's clash should have caused more Physical Destruction, it's more likely that this level of destruction was due to factors that did not apply to HoA. 

Thoughts, ideas, evidence of my ignorance?

The difference was actually explained a bit later in the book by Nohadon, WaT ch 142:

Quote

“Is there no way to fight him?” Dalinar said. “Without destroying all of Roshar?”
“I don’t think there is,” Nohadon said. “Powers like yours have clashed before without destructive results—but always then, one of the two wanted to preserve. When both want to destroy … it’s violent.”

Both Tanavast and the power of Honor wanted to destroy Odium. Even when Dalinar Ascended he wanted to just destory Odium for good. There was no though about protecting the world, just destrouction. The Fourth Moon was a factor, but even without it when Dalinar and Taravangian clashed, their powers threaten to destroy Roshar. 

Quote

What if he destroyed Odium? The contract of old let Dalinar attack as he wished. Yes, Odium could defend himself if that happened, but Dalinar had been a soldier and Taravangian a philosopher.
Dalinar could destroy his enemy and save Roshar. The power of Honor wanted this confrontation.
[...]
“I ACCEPT,” Dalinar said. “IF YOU ARE DEAD, THEN THIS WORLD WILL BE FREE OF YOUR STENCH FOREVER. I CAN MAINTAIN HONOR, AND WILL BE PROVEN RIGHT IN NOT KILLING GAV—AND WILL NOT HAVE TO JOIN YOU AND YOUR CONQUESTS. LET US END THIS, TARAVANGIAN.”
Dalinar!
“LET US END THIS!” Taravangian said, his power billowing behind him, the red lightning crashing.
“YOU,” Dalinar said, the winds becoming furious, “SHOULD NOT HAVE THREATENED MY FAMILY. TODAY YOU SHALL KNOW THE BLACKTHORN! YOU SHALL KNOW THE TEMPEST AWAKENED!”
[...]
Dalinar blinked, seeing the powers beginning to touch, the friction causing the tower beneath him to shake—and the mountains nearby to tremble. On the top of the tower, he heard Gavinor crying, suddenly freed as Taravangian focused on Dalinar. Crying … the way he had as a child …
Dalinar remembered his first vision ever, standing and watching a cataclysm engulf his homeland. How many times had he seen that vision, and assumed the cataclysm was some enemy force? Some terrible fate he needed to stand before and prevent?
Now, he saw it clearly for the first time. The cataclysm was Dalinar himself.

[Treamayne]

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

The difference was actually explained a bit later in the book by Nohadon, WaT ch 142:

Quote

“Is there no way to fight him?” Dalinar said. “Without destroying all of Roshar?”
“I don’t think there is,” Nohadon said. “Powers like yours have clashed before without destructive results—but always then, one of the two wanted to preserve. When both want to destroy … it’s violent.”

Both Tanavast and the power of Honor wanted to destroy Odium. Even when Dalinar Ascended he wanted to just destory Odium for good. There was no though about protecting the world, just destrouction. The Fourth Moon was a factor, but even without it when Dalinar and Taravangian clashed, their powers threaten to destroy Roshar. 

So a third factor, probably - but it seems unlikely to me that it was the only factor. Honor may have wanted to Fight, but Tanavast seems to be trying to Protect the children Rayse had just threatened (as a goad) - and the Clash was described as a moment of Creation, not a Moment of Destruction. Ch 120:

Spoiler

“YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT BREAKING YOU COULD BE LIKE, TANNER? I BARELY ATTACK THE CHILDREN DURING DESOLATIONS. I COULD ORDER THEM TO SLAUGHTER, INSTEAD OF TO WAR. I’M TOYING WITH THAT FOR NEXT TIME. MERELY TO SEE YOUR REACTION.”

I SCREAMED. AND IN MY RAGE, I LOST CONTROL AND THREW MYSELF AT HIM.

HE LAUGHED, AND THREW HIS POWER AGAINST MINE. WHAT FOLLOWED WAS A THUNDERCLAP, AND SILENCE, AS ALL WAS PUSHED AWAY FROM US. IN THAT SPACE OF NOTHING—EVERY AXON FORCED AWAY—OUR SOULS MELDED IN THE MOST UNNERVING OF WAYS, TOO INTIMATE, TOO REMINISCENT OF CREATION FOR A CREATURE SUCH AS HIM. IN THAT MOMENT, TINY PIECES OF SOMETHING DISCORDANT WERE BORN.

Good food-for-thought. Thank you. 

[The Sovereign]

@Treamayne that is fair, I may have jumped the gun from speculation, though it makes a lot more sense to me for Odium to have invested Roshar there because Duralumin from the moon would block Honor and Cultivation from seeing his Perpendicularity rather than it being a Godmetal. Presumably, Tanavast would have been able to identify a Godmetal while he would not be able to see Aluminum/Duralumin clearly.

Assuming Rayse's Perpendicularity was already there at the time of the clash, then something else to consider is when Odium & Honor had clashed over Stormseat the Cymatic Rhythm of War would have echoed with the Rhythm of Odium coming from the Perpendicularity beneath. The Pattern the Plains shattered into is very likely the Cymatic Rhythm Of War similar to the other patterns we saw for the Dawncities from Kabsal and then Navani's experiments.

Quote

TOO INTIMATE, TOO REMINISCENT OF CREATION FOR A CREATURE SUCH AS HIM. IN THAT MOMENT, TINY PIECES OF SOMETHING DISCORDANT WERE BORN.

To me this indicates Retribution investiture/The Rhythm of War.

[Treamayne]

2 minutes ago, The Sovereign said:

I may have jumped the gun from speculation, though it makes a lot more sense to me for Odium to have invested Roshar there because Duralumin from the moon would block Honor and Cultivation from seeing his Perpendicularity rather than it being a Godmetal. Presumably, Tanavast would have been able to identify a Godmetal while he would not be able to see Aluminum/Duralumin clearly.

Also, just because something "greater' may have been present, does not mean that there was not Aluminum in the shattered "moon." There was likely a reason the Sleepless (if that was indeed the watchers he noted) stayed in that location - but I don't see them (or anybody) "guarding" Odium's perpendicularity. . . 

[alder24]

43 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

There was likely a reason the Sleepless (if that was indeed the watchers he noted) stayed in that location - but I don't see them (or anybody) "guarding" Odium's perpendicularity. .

They were there. WaT ch 70:

Quote

Venli glanced up at the dark sky, visible through the slit top of the chasm high above. Red flashes reflected off clouds up there. By moving inward, they entered his domain.
She still heard that rhythm in the distance. The one she was following. The closer they drew, the better Venli could pick out the tone—somehow discordant, with a chaotic rhythm. To her right, a purple cremling sat atop a bulbous frond. It seemed to be watching her, and she hummed a happy rhythm to it.

[Treamayne]

6 minutes ago, alder24 said:

They were there. WaT ch 70:

Yes, but I was referencing the Watchers Tanavast noted - which (I agree) is also likely to be Sleepless. However, due to the phrasing, I am hesitant to say they were confirmed as Sleepless. 

Spoiler

 I SAW PEOPLE THERE—NEW ONES, WATCHERS, WHO HAD BEEN HIDDEN FROM ME

Sanderson is a tricksy hobbit. Sleepless make sense. . . but Tanavast said "people" which may or may not mean Sleepless.

Edited December 23, 2024 by Treamayne
SPAG

[The Sovereign]

2 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Yes, but I was referencing the Watchers Tanavast noted - which (I agree) is also likely to be Sleepless. However, due to the phrasing, I am hesitant to say they were confirmed as Sleepless. 

  Hide contents

 I SAW PEOPLE THERE—NEW ONES, WATCHERS, WHO HAD BEEN HIDDEN FROM ME

Sanderson is a tricksy hobbit. Sleepless make sense. . . but Tanavast said "people" which may or may not mean Sleepless.

The Sleepless Epigraph seems to indicate the Sleepless going there is a new development:

Quote

"The time has at last come for our stewardship to end."
"Obviously, the passing of the Dawnshard was the first indication that this event was near. However, we find many other signs."
"The impending events in Iri are another sign. The age of transitions has arrived."
"I believe, sincerely, that the winds blowing in from the future indicate this will be the final confrontation of Honor and Odium."
"The Heralds are essentially no more. They are rejected by their Blades."
"We must travel to the Well of Control, within the shroud of the fragments of the dead moon."
"There, we will find our destiny. We cannot stop him from destroying us. It is time."