Is Syl just an honourspren?

[LeondeBowa]

So at the end of the trial by champion, the stormfather dies. When we next see Syl she has changed, she is described as more solid and has storms in her eyes (can't get my book so can't quote rn).

She was the Stormfathers princess, could she have assended to be one of the great spren? What would that mean for her bond with Kaladin? Could he become a bond smith on top of everything else, Dalinar did attempt to make him his heir...

WDYT?

Edited December 22, 2024 by LeondeBowa

[Nitpicking]

I think Syl is potentially the Stormfather's replacement. She has/had a strong Connection him, he's her father and literally made her. Also, when Kaladin needed an Honorblade/Honorspear to be a Herald, it was Syl who worked with him to make it. She's the "senior" Splinter of Honor remaining. (The Sibling might "contain" more Honor, but presumably has too much Cultivation to become the Honor megaspren.)

Just to be confusing, if she becomes a megaspren like the Nightwatcher or the Tower, does that make Kaladin a Bondsmith? Mr. "Refuses to be a scholar"? Who is already a Fifth Oath Windrunner? He'd be the opposite of Ishar, I think.

Did she go to Ashyn with Kaladin, or is she still on Roshar? When Kaladin Returns to Roshar, would their bond make Syl strong enough to replace the Highstorm with the "Motherstorm"? She actually says at one point that she'd make an excellent mother.

[Treamayne]

52 minutes ago, LeondeBowa said:

So at the end of the trial by champion, the stormfather dies. When we next see Syl she has changed, she is described as more solid and has storms in her eyes (can't get my book so can't quote rn).

She was the Stormfathers princess, could she have assender to be one of the great spren? What would that mean for her bond with Kaladin? Could he become a bond smith on top of everything else, Dalinar did attempt to make him his heir...

WDYT?

WaT Ch 144:

Spoiler

“How are you doing?” he asked.

“He’s dead,” she whispered. “My father is … dead. And I’m not sure if I ever really knew him…”

She glanced at him, and as she did, he saw a storm in her eyes. Not a metaphoric one, but actual lightning and swirling clouds, filling them. In a moment, she wore something very different. A regal gown, fit for … for a queen.

I took this to mean that, because she is the last (non-Deadeye) Remnant that was created directly from Stormfather, she has the largest remaining individual piece of Stormfather unConnected to Retribution. What it may mean in the future is up for speculation.

OB Ch 108:

Spoiler

“More like a weak shadow,” Notum said. “You … actually understand this?”

“Understand, no. Follow? Mostly.”

“The Stormfather created only a handful of children. All of these, save Sylphrena, were destroyed in the Recreance, becoming deadeyes. This loss stung the Stormfather, who didn’t create again for centuries. When he was finally moved to remake the honorspren, he created only ten more. My great-grandmother was among them; she created my grandfather, who created my father, who eventually created me.

“It was only recently, even by your reckoning, that the Ancient Daughter was rediscovered. Asleep. So, in answer to your question, yes, Sylphrena is both old and young. Old of form, but young of mind.

So, most living Honorspren are fractions of fractions of a directly created Honorspren. I wonder if Notum's Great-Grandmother would also show these effects to her form.

Hope that helps.

[Nitpicking]

I just ran across this quote in another topic.

Quote

The Words, Kaladin. That was Syl’s voice. You have to speak the Words!
I FORBID THIS.
YOUR WILL MATTERS NOT! Syl shouted. YOU CANNOT HOLD ME BACK IF HE SPEAKS THE WORDS! THE WORDS, KALADIN! SAY THEM!

Notice that Syl goes TO ALL CAPITAL LETTERS SPEECH. The only other person to make that transition that I can remember was Dalinar, when he was about to Connect Kaladin to the Beyond (or Beyond-adjacent). It's a sign that someone will become a god, I think.

[a Faceless Immortal he/him]

1 hour ago, Nitpicking said:

Did she go to Ashyn with Kaladin, or is she still on Roshar?

I don't remember it being mentioned, but I believe so; Nale's spren certainly goes with him, and Renarin's visions saw 12 figures standing in a grassy field, one of them having blue skin (aka the Heralds + Syl + 121).

I agree with this theory, but also, Kaladin would kinda be too OP if he was also a Bondsmith in addition to being a Herald and a 5th Ideal Windrunner. Would he have more Oaths to say? The double surge of Adhesion would also probably have some weird interactions.

As whether she will be able to produce Stormlight or not... I'm leaning towards not. I feel like Retribution could just flat out deny her access to that investiture, even if he can't directly control the Spren. And plus, it would feel kind of like a cop out to me if Sanderson were to set up the next arc as being Stormlight limited only for it to be a non-issue anyway.

[Nitpicking]

10 hours ago, a Faceless Immortal said:

As whether she will be able to produce Stormlight or not... I'm leaning towards not. I feel like Retribution could just flat out deny her access to that investiture, even if he can't directly control the Spren. And plus, it would feel kind of like a cop out to me if Sanderson were to set up the next arc as being Stormlight limited only for it to be a non-issue anyway.

I am hoping that the Heralds don't Return until Book 8 or later. Mostly, I am very tired of Kaladin and need him to go away and let the other characters take the stage for a while.

[Hoids Imaginary Friend]

12 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

Did she go to Ashyn with Kaladin, or is she still on Roshar?

Looks that way:

Spoiler

Kayak notices a woman with long flowing white blue hair who didn't belong.

I think Syl was given a one of the several splinters that shot off of Honor before the merge, with another used yo create Kals honerblade.

IT feels like there were more, im guessing one went to BAM and "remade" her, which is why Retribution cant find her as shes not BAM anymore, shes something else.

[Nitpicking]

6 minutes ago, Hoids Imaginary Friend said:

Looks that way:

  Reveal hidden contents

Kayak notices a woman with long flowing white blue hair who didn't belong.

I think Syl was given a one of the several splinters that shot off of Honor before the merge, with another used yo create Kals honerblade.

IT feels like there were more, im guessing one went to BAM and "remade" her, which is why Retribution cant find her as shes not BAM anymore, shes something else.

Syl is a Splinter of Honor. I think those new Splinters will be new characters in the back half.

[Hoids Imaginary Friend]

42 minutes ago, Nitpicking said:

Syl is a Splinter of Honor. I think those new Splinters will be new characters in the back half.

Yeah she is a splinter, was just trying to explain her changes at the end and adding more from another splinter could fit.

[Nitpicking]

16 hours ago, Hoids Imaginary Friend said:

Yeah she is a splinter, was just trying to explain her changes at the end and adding more from another splinter could fit.

My guess is that her extra Investiture comes from the Stormfather, who was Splintered by Odium after Dalinar broke his oaths. Syl probably had the strongest Connection to the Stormfather, after Dalinar broke their bond.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

On 12/22/2024 at 4:53 AM, Nitpicking said:

I think Syl is potentially the Stormfather's replacement. She has/had a strong Connection him, he's her father and literally made her. Also, when Kaladin needed an Honorblade/Honorspear to be a Herald, it was Syl who worked with him to make it. She's the "senior" Splinter of Honor remaining. (The Sibling might "contain" more Honor, but presumably has too much Cultivation to become the Honor megaspren.)

Just to be confusing, if she becomes a megaspren like the Nightwatcher or the Tower, does that make Kaladin a Bondsmith? Mr. "Refuses to be a scholar"? Who is already a Fifth Oath Windrunner? He'd be the opposite of Ishar, I think.

Did she go to Ashyn with Kaladin, or is she still on Roshar? When Kaladin Returns to Roshar, would their bond make Syl strong enough to replace the Highstorm with the "Motherstorm"? She actually says at one point that she'd make an excellent mother.

The Storm Daughter! I like this idea, though it will be a big back half implication and probably won't come into play until the Heralds decide to Return in the second half arc. Her departure from Roshar with Kaladin might also explain why the Highstorms have gone away completely. Maybe when she returns with Kaladin the Highstorm will start blowing again, even if more tame than before. 

I would love to see Syl as the Storm personified in the future 

Also ... isn't the Ashyn locale just for their souls to experience while their bodies/minds are actually back on Braize being tortured? Did I misunderstand the ending completely there? 

[AlmightyGir]

I have a feeling that Syl will end up being the "most pure" Honor spren, where all the others are at least part Cultivation, she will somehow end up being entirely "of Honor".

And will in some way be Connected to how Honor learns right from wrong, even when upholding oaths.

No hard proof here, just thoughts.

[Sophrosyne he/him]

4 hours ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

Her departure from Roshar with Kaladin might also explain why the Highstorms have gone away completely. Maybe when she returns with Kaladin the Highstorm will start blowing again, even if more tame than before.

Shards, I hope you're right on this one, my #1 complaint about Brandon is that all his worlds lose their special sauce before the 1st arc is done.

4 hours ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

Also ... isn't the Ashyn locale just for their souls to experience while their bodies/minds are actually back on Braize being tortured? Did I misunderstand the ending completely there? 

Yeah, I'm p sure their minds experience Ashyn and their bodies go to Braize. Funny thought that the fused try anti-light and capturing but because part of them is just elsewhere they just keep reforming and slowly drain from Retribution.

[Treamayne]

12 hours ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

Ashyn locale just for their souls to experience while their bodies/minds are actually back on Braize being tortured?

I know they mentioned avoiding torture. . . but would that still be the case? Are they just assuming based on past experience.
In past Desolations, the point was to find the Heralds and torture them into allowing the Fused to return - but that no longer applies. The Fused don;t return to Braize anymore, they return with the Everstorm now. So, why would there be any Torture while on Braize?

[Nitpicking]

18 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I know they mentioned avoiding torture. . . but would that still be the case? Are they just assuming based on past experience.
In past Desolations, the point was to find the Heralds and torture them into allowing the Fused to return - but that no longer applies. The Fused don;t return to Braize anymore, they return with the Everstorm now. So, why would there be any Torture while on Braize?

For that matter, why wouldn't the Fused on Braize just use anti-Light to kill them, while they're helpless because their minds are somewhere else?

[Valigus]

17 minutes ago, Nitpicking said:

For that matter, why wouldn't the Fused on Braize just use anti-Light to kill them, while they're helpless because their minds are somewhere else?

My suspicion is that they can’t rly, the amount of anti-light needed is probably far too substantial. 
 

we’ve only seen any light interact with low levels spren, kill fused (which mostly seemed to happen because of the pressure) and collapse a perpendicularity

with heralds being literally reconstituted from investiture I doubt antilight would slow them down much more than poison or just being stabbed rly good

so the amount they would need (and getting it there) is probably prohibitive, nothing anywhere close to as strong as herald as been gone after with anti light, for comparison nobody ever seriously considered using anti light to kill the stormfather

Edited January 1, 2025 by Valigus

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

6 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I know they mentioned avoiding torture. . . but would that still be the case? Are they just assuming based on past experience.
In past Desolations, the point was to find the Heralds and torture them into allowing the Fused to return - but that no longer applies. The Fused don;t return to Braize anymore, they return with the Everstorm now. So, why would there be any Torture while on Braize?

It's a good question! It could just be fear of past and history sure. It could also be that there are still Void spren on Braize who will Torture any Heralds they find

I thought the Fused still returned to Braize but they could immediately funnel back to roshar via the Everstorm. With the Everstorm's global presence now though... I have no idea what is happening. Maybe their souls are chilling on Braize with no one there to torture while their Cognitive aspects are stowed away in the Spiritual recreation of Ashyn (re-read this postlude last night and Im' pretty sure this is what is going on now)

5 hours ago, Valigus said:

My suspicion is that they can’t rly, the amount of anti-light needed is probably far too substantial. 
 

we’ve only seen any light interact with low levels spren, kill fused (which mostly seemed to happen because of the pressure) and collapse a perpendicularity

with heralds being literally reconstituted from investiture I doubt antilight would slow them down much more than poison or just being stabbed rly good

so the amount they would need (and getting it there) is probably prohibitive, nothing anywhere close to as strong as herald as been gone after with anti light, for comparison nobody ever seriously considered using anti light to kill the stormfather

With no Stormlight in existence (the book is pretty clear that Retribution pulled all Stormlight back to himself and it doesn't exist anywhere out there now) can you even create anti-light for it to harm Honor based entities like was discovered in RoW and used a couple of times here in WaT? Don't you need the base light to generate the anti-light? 

 

[Nitpicking]

9 hours ago, Valigus said:

My suspicion is that they can’t rly, the amount of anti-light needed is probably far too substantial. 
 

we’ve only seen any light interact with low levels spren, kill fused (which mostly seemed to happen because of the pressure) and collapse a perpendicularity

with heralds being literally reconstituted from investiture I doubt antilight would slow them down much more than poison or just being stabbed rly good

so the amount they would need (and getting it there) is probably prohibitive, nothing anywhere close to as strong as herald as been gone after with anti light, for comparison nobody ever seriously considered using anti light to kill the stormfather

How about raysium dagger to put one of them in a gemstone? Maybe Braize doesn't have gemstones the way Roshar does?

[Valigus]

8 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

How about raysium dagger to put one of them in a gemstone? Maybe Braize doesn't have gemstones the way Roshar does?

Possible, or the cost of transporting it is prohibitive, but also consider that jezrien was the tattered remains of a herald, these are reforged heralds with their honor blades, and full power intact, I think you need a substantial gemstone for that.

The big question about the new oath pact is why they would ever come back cause it kind of seems like that would let retribution just kill all the spren

[Nitpicking]

7 hours ago, Valigus said:

The big question about the new oath pact is why they would ever come back cause it kind of seems like that would let retribution just kill all the spren

To fight, is my best guess. If it seems like Retribution found a way around the new Oathpact (like he did the old one), they would come back to continue the struggle. I said elsewhere that I'm hoping they stay off Roshar for 2 or 3 books so we can go back to having stories about people. And I'm incredibly bored with Kaladin having the same story arc every book.

[PanicPug]

Do we know in which physical forms the Fused and Heralds reside on Braize? So far I imagined it pretty much like spren in the PR on Roshar. Therefore it would also be impossible to extremely difficult to bring anything physical (like a Raysium knife, crystals etc.) or use it in the first place, right?

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, PanicPug said:

Do we know in which physical forms the Fused and Heralds reside on Braize? So far I imagined it pretty much like spren in the PR on Roshar. Therefore it would also be impossible to extremely difficult to bring anything physical (like a Raysium knife, crystals etc.) or use it in the first place, right?

The Physical Realm of Braize cannot support life. Fused and Heralds both are only there in the Cognitive Realm (Mistborn: SH Spoilers)

Spoiler

Much like Kelsier's Cognitive Shadow wandering the Scadrian Shadesmar.

RoW Ch 89:

Spoiler

“Offworld?” Navani asked, looking up from the fabrial she’d been housing. “As in … another … planet?”

Raboniel hummed absently. A confirmation? Navani felt she could tell what this rhythm meant.

“I wanted to go, for years,” Raboniel said. “Visit the place myself. Unfortunately, I learned it wasn’t possible. I’m trapped in this system, my soul bound to Braize—you call it Damnation—a planet farther out in orbit around the sun.”

To hear her speak of such things so casually amazed Navani. Other worlds. The best telescopes couldn’t do more than confirm the existence of other celestial bodies, but here she was, speaking to someone who had visited one of them.

We came from another, Navani reminded herself. Humans, migrating to Roshar. It was so strange for her to think about, to align the mythos of the Tranquiline Halls with an actual location.

“Could … I visit them?” Navani asked. “These other worlds?”

“Likely—though I’d stay away from Braize. You’d have to get through the storm to travel there anyway.”

“The Everstorm?”

Raboniel hummed to an amused rhythm. “No, no, Navani. You can’t travel to Braize in the Physical Realm. That would take … well, I have no idea how long. Plus there’s no air in the space between planets. We sent Heavenly Ones to try it once. No air, and worse, the strange pressures required them to carry a large supply of Voidlight for healing. Even so prepared, they died within hours.

“One instead travels to other worlds through Shadesmar. But again, stay away from Braize. Even if you could get through the barrier storm, the place is barren, devoid of life. Merely a dark sky, endless windswept crags, and a broken landscape. And a lot of souls. A lot of not particularly sane souls.”

“I’ll … remember that.”

Hope that helps

[PanicPug]

28 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

“One instead travels to other worlds through Shadesmar. But again, stay away from Braize. Even if you could get through the barrier storm, the place is barren, devoid of life. Merely a dark sky, endless windswept crags, and a broken landscape. And a lot of souls. A lot of not particularly sane souls.”

Thank you for the relevant quote. What I'm not entirely clear about is whether Raboniel describes the PR or CR of Braize here (because I seem to remember there's no wind in Shadesmar (hence Mandras for sailing)). Also from Kaladin's vision or seems that the PR (I guess) surface of Braize is like the one described by Raboniel, so shouldn't the CR side be all beads (or something more fitting to Braize)?

Getting even more sidetracked (and let me know if I should start a new post for that): how are the heralds (as well as fused, thunderclasts and spren and whatnot) travelling from Braize to Roshar? Are they walking/flying/sliding through CR and step through a perpendicularity or are they teleported or something similar?

[Leuthie]

5 minutes ago, PanicPug said:

Thank you for the relevant quote. What I'm not entirely clear about is whether Raboniel describes the PR or CR of Braize here (because I seem to remember there's no wind in Shadesmar (hence Mandras for sailing)). Also from Kaladin's vision or seems that the PR (I guess) surface of Braize is like the one described by Raboniel, so shouldn't the CR side be all beads (or something more fitting to Braize)?

Getting even more sidetracked (and let me know if I should start a new post for that): how are the heralds (as well as fused, thunderclasts and spren and whatnot) travelling from Braize to Roshar? Are they walking/flying/sliding through CR and step through a perpendicularity or are they teleported or something similar?

They're tied to Braize. Reference the Epilogue where Hoid just appears on Scadrial after being killed on Roshar. No need for "travel". When Fused die, they appear on Braize (or now the Everstorm). When a Fused returns, it simply appears in the body of a willing Singer. When a Herald breaks, they all just appear on Roshar in newly formed bodies. Existing magics just make this happen. No traveling required.

[Treamayne]

12 minutes ago, PanicPug said:

Also from Kaladin's vision or seems that the PR (I guess) surface of Braize is like the one described by Raboniel, so shouldn't the CR side be all beads (or something more fitting to Braize)?

In RoW, Kaladin was in a Vision replicating the Physical Realm of Braize. Much like Dalinar's Visions in WoK, his body remains behind and trys to mimic his actions, but his mind is in the vision in the Spiritual Realm. 

RoW Ch 85:

Spoiler

“I’ve … never seen a fever like that,” Rlain said, towering over the two of them. Did he know how large he was in warform? “Have you?”

Lift shook her head.

“Please,” Dabbid said. “Please help.”

Lift held out her hand, palm forward, and burst alight with power. Stormlight rose from her skin like white smoke, and she knelt. She shied away as Kaladin thrashed again, then she lunged forward and pressed her hand to his chest.

The redness immediately retreated, and the rotspren fled, as if they couldn’t stand the presence of her touch. Kaladin’s back arched. He was hurting!

Then he collapsed into the blankets. 

<snip>

“In a cage?” Teft said. “Why? And where are my storming clothes?”

“There’s a lot to explain, Teft,” Rlain said. “The tower is occupied by the enemy and…” He stopped, then frowned, glancing toward Kaladin.

Kaladin … Kaladin was stirring. They all hushed. Even Teft. Kaladin blinked and opened his eyes. He grew tense, then saw Rlain and Dabbid and relaxed, taking a deep breath.

“Is this a dream?” he whispered. “Or am I finally awake?”

“You’re awake, Kal,” Rlain said, kneeling to take Kaladin by the shoulder.

Braize's Shadesmar is probably mostly comprised of the same obsidian-like substance as water masses on Roshar and the space between worlds, because areas with a lack of sapient life are why those sections of Shadesmar congeal into black stone. WoB:

Spoiler

Quote

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Shadesmar- you can WALK to the other planets. It’s a pretty far ways away (at least days, if not more), but you can go to Shadesmar, walk in the directions where it says "The Realm of the Vapors" and it runs into Scadrial (which is confirmed). In Shadesmar all of that empty space doesn't really have any human interaction, so it doesn't really have an aspect in the cognitive realm, so all of that place gets shortened immensely. Whenever a planet has enough thinking life on it that's it's considering it a planet, it drops into Shadesmar.

Eventually, he’ll come out with a Shadesmar map of the Cosmere, and a Starmap as well.

Orem signing 2014 (Dec. 6, 2014)

 

Edited January 2, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG/Examples