Why so little time for villains?

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

One of my main complaints with Wind & Truth is how little time we spent with many of the villains. Disregarding Odium and Nale (who turned good by the end) and arguably maybe Mraize we didn’t really get to spend much time with any villain. They showed up for confrontations or an Interlude and were then barely seen again. I for one would have loved to see what El got up to with the Black Fisher and how he led his army, more about Moashs current state (he seriously just shows up to gleefully kill characters at this point), maybe a scene or two with Mraize and Iyatil. Heck, just having Odium interact more with his minions (like Battar, or even Nale whose Skybreakers serve him) would have been interesting. I get why a lot of this wasn’t included, the book is BIG as is, but still… anyone else who’d have liked more villain screen-time?

[Isilel]

Yes, though I just think that Moash is deeply boring and want him gone.

But I would have loved more time with El, that's for sure! Mraize and Iyatil too, I am rather disappointed that we never learned what she actually wanted with BAM and how it differed from what Kelsier wanted. 

[RedBlue]

I thought Taravangian was great throughout the book. He’s appropriately scary as the primary antagonist, while also being an interesting and layered character, so I’d say he got the right amount of screentime.

I’ve never been a huge fan of Mraize or Iyatil. They’ve always been a bit too mysterious and unknowable for me to latch onto them. Having said that, they drove a big part of the plot forward and facilitated Shallan’s whole arc this book, so I’d say they did an okay job as villains.

Similarly, Abidi The Monarch did the job the story needed him to do. He posed a legitimate threat, and showcased how insane most of the Fused are. No complaints.

Sja-Anat and Ba-Ado-Mishram were intriguing. They didn’t get much screentime, I assume because they are being set up for the back half and it wouldn’t do to give the game away early.

Nale and Ishar were highlights for me, but they’re non-villainous antagonists, so I get why they don’t scratch that ‘bad guy’ itch.

Moash was the only villain where I felt the ball was dropped in this book. I think it would have been better if he were in it less. He’s clearly being set up for stuff in the back half, and I’m looking forward to finding out what that is, but too much of his appearance this time felt like a rehash of what he did in RoW. I would have preferred if we'd had just a brief appearance from him, learned where his mind is at, established the gemstone eyes and the corrupted Honorblade, and then shuffled him into the background until he has something new to do.

[TwinStorm He/Him]

I was disappointed with Dai-Gonarthis, but I think Sigzil deserved more screen time than El, who I was mostly happy with.

[Qianweilian He/him]

Moash, to me, has become boring. He was an interesting character, but now he's just a faceless emotionless evil that kills the protagonist's allies.

[Returned he/him]

I think it's a combination of stuff being deliberately held back for future books (El, Dai-Gonarthis), the scale arbitrary pressure of the central conflict, and the profusion of other characters.

We were never going to learn a thing about El or Dai-Gonarthis if they're meant to be surprises for later, so the biggest villains are out. Mraize and Iyatil are at similar, at least in part, in that it would be hard to learn more about them without learning more about the Ghostbloods and the Ghostbloods are enmeshed in secret plots relevant to other stories.

Mid-grade villains like Abidi the Monarch and Lethian the Pursuer are shallow because what differentiates them from the generic singer cause are thematic gimmicks. If they're to be meaningful villains they'd need more than just revenge for invasion and being used to total war, but their lives are just hanging out on Braize until it's time to kill again. More meaningful villains like Leshwi have perspectives and depth, but these are overwhelmed by the constant pressure of Odium demanding that she oppose the humans 100%. And with the war-to-extinction being the main event that brings the characters together there is less to talk about than in other scenarios, such as the politicking within and between nations during Way of Kings.

Finally, there are already a lot of characters that are expected to get screen time and this eats through a lot of pages and plot points. It's hard to add in more, especially when you'd need even more characters and plot elements to develop characters apart from the events already consuming the protagonists. This isn't limited to villains. I felt that Renarin got short shrift, and most of his character development was flatly narrated and most of his story was his romantic relationship. Rlain's story was only a little bit better. Lift didn't really develop or do much, nor did Notum. I would have liked a more well-rounded Mraize, but how many pages would it have taken to do that, and would it have encroached on the plot for other characters? I think many, and yes.

[JasnahShouldBeVegan]

I’m surprised by all the Moash hate, by this I mean I’m surprised that people don’t find him to be an entertaining character, obviously everyone hates Moash as a person.

I don’t mind having a character that’s almost a meme. He has his schtick where he: fly’s in, kills someone awesome in a dishonourable way, does a bridge 4 salute, and then leaves when things start to get tricky for him. Haha. He’s just so easy to hate. And what makes it worse is that he thinks he’s doing good (the philosophy behind his actions is so dumb which makes it even more frustrating). Just to make it even worse he is a massive traitor.

Not every villain needs to be a well developed evil mastermind that you almost agree with…

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

11 hours ago, JasnahShouldBeVegan said:

I don’t mind having a character that’s almost a meme. He has his schtick where he: fly’s in, kills someone awesome in a dishonourable way, does a bridge 4 salute, and then leaves when things start to get tricky for him. Haha. He’s just so easy to hate. And what makes it worse is that he thinks he’s doing good (the philosophy behind his actions is so dumb which makes it even more frustrating). Just to make it even worse he is a massive traitor.

I do think that he works in that regard as well, although it might fall in the ”fun writing” category rather than ”great writing”. I don’t think Moash needs to be sympathetic anymore (he arguably was in WoR/OB were he at least fought for some kind of justice in an unjust system) and since then he has fallen into pure evil due to letting himself be ruled by hate and anger. That is fine. But I do think it would be interesting to do something more with him, I’d have loved a scene with him and El for example, especially since El used to be Vyre before Moash came around, and also due to Els interest in humans. 

[Qianweilian He/him]

12 hours ago, JasnahShouldBeVegan said:

I’m surprised by all the Moash hate, by this I mean I’m surprised that people don’t find him to be an entertaining character, obviously everyone hates Moash as a person.

I don’t mind having a character that’s almost a meme. He has his schtick where he: fly’s in, kills someone awesome in a dishonourable way, does a bridge 4 salute, and then leaves when things start to get tricky for him. Haha. He’s just so easy to hate. And what makes it worse is that he thinks he’s doing good (the philosophy behind his actions is so dumb which makes it even more frustrating). Just to make it even worse he is a massive traitor.

Not every villain needs to be a well developed evil mastermind that you almost agree with…

The thing is, he used to be a "well developed evil mastermind that you almost agree with" and now he's none of that. There's no real difference now between him and a random Heavenly One