Is Dalinar Done?

[Wit Beyond Measure]

Quote

Those two only make nine, he thought to the Stormfather. Something told him there should be one more.

--Oathbringer, Pg 1142

Those two are Ash and Taln, heralds, and his previous seven include Windrunner (Kal), Lightweaver (Shallan), Truthwatcher (Renarin), Elsecaller (Jasnah), Skybreaker (Szeth), Edgedancer (Lift), and Bondsmith (Dalinar). Assuming Taln takes Stoneward and either Ash or Shallan moves to Dustbringer, then the only one left is Willshaper, Eshonai/Venli. Venli was there on Thaylen Field with them!

Not only that, but these ten make up the ten books. Sanderson has planned a book about each of these ten.

Not only that, but we see that Kaladin has already ascended to become the Windrunner herald. 

Not only that but we learn in this book that the previous heralds did not necessarily keep their original orders but sometimes switched. And Chana seems to have clearly earmarked her daughter as her successor, even though that is clearly not yet fulfilled. Foreshadowing, though, is Sanderson's thing.

Not only that, but the ten books each focus on a single character that matches these ten exactly.

Ten heralds. Ten orders. Ten books. Ten orders on Thaylen Field.

And Sanderson named his kid Dalinar.

So while I struggle with thinking that we are going to see another Kelsier-like resurrection, I am also seeing how well Dalinar has been setup with an unfulfilled destiny as a herald, a bondsmith, destined to unite not just Roshar and not just the cosmere but the Shards themselves back into Adonalsium.

[StanLemon]

I think Dalinar is truly gone, but I think there is the possibility that there will be a psuedo revival where Adolin, Renarin, Navani, Jasnah, and other people's memories of Dalinar influence the Blackthorne

[Elder]

I think… that the True Dalinar will appear in visions, the way Nohadon has.  Probably to Jasnah, possibly to Renarin.  Not sure where thst puts me on the poll.

Edited December 13, 2024 by Elder

[TheOtherDave]

We saw his soul do that stretching thing in Shadesmar, so… by the rules as we know them, “He’s dead, Jim”.

The only thing that gives me pause is that line about “his soul belongs to another” (that’s probably not an exact quote… I don’t have the book in front of me). Odd phrasing, unless I just missed the point.

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

4 hours ago, StanLemon said:

I think Dalinar is truly gone, but I think there is the possibility that there will be a psuedo revival where Adolin, Renarin, Navani, Jasnah, and other people's memories of Dalinar influence the Blackthorne

Right - actual Dalinar is definitively dead and gone... BUT his copy that holds his memories, who Retribution pulled out of the spiritual realm, will be back as the Blackthorn and will be a kickass evil general... and I could see him being shaped by those memories of the people who knew and loved the real Dalinar. I could also see him having internal conflict and growing into a better version. He has all of Dalinar's memories and he seems to be unphased by it initially, but when rubber meets the road he might start to realize he takes issue with the things Retribution commands him to do. He might start to find that real Dalinar had it right, and that he wants to take the next step as well.

That said, he may just get corrupted worse and worse by Retribution's power and be turned into an even more evil darth vader type character?

[Sparks]

To reference another multiverse here, I think Sanderson has set up the literary equivalent of MCU Loki 2.0 here.  Loki Prime died a hero's death fighting Thanos.   Loki 2.0 escaped the Sacred Timeline with the help of shenanigans in Avengers Endgame with none of the character growth of Loki Prime, but eventually went on his own hero's journey and came to some of the same places as Loki Prime.   

Now T-Odium has made a terrible mistake in bringing back the Blackthorn 2.0, because as others have already pointed out, he's already interacted with Dalinar Prime as a kickstart and will interact with the other heroes in his own arc.  He's fully capable of his own internal growth that Dalinar Prime has undergone, and more importantly, Dalinar Prime has secretly set the Honor Shard with growing self-awareness on its own path of internal growth, with Dalinar Prime's goal of destabilizing Retribution until Honor breaks away and finds a better Vessel. 

Ironically, Honor's best choice of a Vessel will be a Dalinar 2.0 that has underwent his own hero's journey.  That or Adolin, who refused Radiance, but otherwise has already figured out 3 books ago that true honor lies with the Intent of doing the right thing, and not blindly following oaths.  (Adolin might find that hysterically funny, having striven for 2 books to "not be like his father" to end up maybe having to Ascend to the same Shard to fight T-Odium.)    

[JPGU]

I think our Dalinar is gone and the Blackthorn will die in the second arc and that is the Dalinar that renarin see burning in a vision.

[Aeshdan he/him]

I don't think that Brandon would have specifically gone out of his way to mention Dalinar's soul passing on to the Beyond if he had any intention of bringing him back. Not when he's been so firm elsewhere in the Cosmere that even Shards can't bring back someone who passes Beyond and not when he's talked so much about the narrative risks of too many resurrection plot twists. Leaving aside the Blackthorn (who I don't think counts as Dalinar), I don't see Dalinar coming back in person. Now, Dalinar visions might be possible, because we've already seen that the Spiritual Realm can produce echoes even of people who are dead and gone (Evi, Tien, etc.)

[Silverblade5 he/him]

16 hours ago, Sparks said:

To reference another multiverse here, I think Sanderson has set up the literary equivalent of MCU Loki 2.0 here.  Loki Prime died a hero's death fighting Thanos.   Loki 2.0 escaped the Sacred Timeline with the help of shenanigans in Avengers Endgame with none of the character growth of Loki Prime, but eventually went on his own hero's journey and came to some of the same places as Loki Prime.   

Now T-Odium has made a terrible mistake in bringing back the Blackthorn 2.0, because as others have already pointed out, he's already interacted with Dalinar Prime as a kickstart and will interact with the other heroes in his own arc.  He's fully capable of his own internal growth that Dalinar Prime has undergone, and more importantly, Dalinar Prime has secretly set the Honor Shard with growing self-awareness on its own path of internal growth, with Dalinar Prime's goal of destabilizing Retribution until Honor breaks away and finds a better Vessel. 

Ironically, Honor's best choice of a Vessel will be a Dalinar 2.0 that has underwent his own hero's journey.  That or Adolin, who refused Radiance, but otherwise has already figured out 3 books ago that true honor lies with the Intent of doing the right thing, and not blindly following oaths.  (Adolin might find that hysterically funny, having striven for 2 books to "not be like his father" to end up maybe having to Ascend to the same Shard to fight T-Odium.)    

This should happen solely on account of how funny it would be.

 

Edited December 15, 2024 by Silverblade5

[Wanguu He/Him]

I think our Dalinar is dead and gone. But like how @Sparks put it, I think The Blackthorn, evil general he is, will be unable to resist the change that real Dalinar went through. I don't see him uniting the shards or anything, but I do see him turning tail on Retribution (if it's still Retribution then, and not more shards put together) in the final battle after learning a lot about OG dalinar and going through similar experiences.

[Kelsier Kenobi]

It’s not a very strong opinion but I think we see Dalinar again. I know Brandon has said when someone goes to the beyond they are GONE, but “you cannot have him for he is claimed by another” HAS to mean something.

One possibility I’ve come up with is that Valor has been mentioned too many times to not get involved IMO. With Valors vessel being a dragon this passage from Hoid makes me wonder: 

Quote

He closed his eyes, took a small bone from his pocket, and reached out to the meditative realm of the dragons—where he’d always be an interloper. There, he sought the wisdom of the ancient dead who could see far more clearly, if you knew how to get them to talk to you. From them, he discovered something he had never suspected: Dalinar Kholin had been an absolute storming genius.

I know Dalinar isn’t a dragon but what happens if a Shard with a dragon vessel claims his soul?  Who knows?

[TheOtherDave]

On 12/14/2024 at 10:32 PM, Sparks said:

Ironically, Honor's best choice of a Vessel will be a Dalinar 2.0 that has underwent his own hero's journey.  That or Adolin, who refused Radiance, but otherwise has already figured out 3 books ago that true honor lies with the Intent of doing the right thing, and not blindly following oaths.  (Adolin might find that hysterically funny, having striven for 2 books to "not be like his father" to end up maybe having to Ascend to the same Shard to fight T-Odium.)

Yeah, it really seemed to me like Adolin’s being setup to take Honor. Well, assuming he doesn’t die of old age while Honor figures out what he wants… I don’t think there’s any precedent for how quickly shards can grow and change since IIRC he’s the first to attempt it.

[RedBlue]

1 hour ago, Kelsier Kenobi said:

I know Brandon has said when someone goes to the beyond they are GONE, but “you cannot have him for he is claimed by another” HAS to mean something.

I think the ‘another’ with a claim on Dalinar is supposed to reference the God Beyond. Whether there’s a real Beyond entity claiming Dalinar, or it’s just Dalinar pulling himself into the Beyond with the strength of his own belief, Retribution’s claim doesn’t stick because Dalinar doesn’t recognise him as his true god.

[Cocoa he/him]

The whole bit about another having a claim on him is a bit odd, but on the other hand, we saw him stretch. That's the only indication we have of "really, truly dead" in the Cosmere, so I don't think that Brandon is going to have him come back, if only because it would open a whole can of worms that I suspect he as an author really doesn't want to deal with.

[+Rebeca]

In Secret History Kelsier tells Vin she doesn't need to go to the beyond as she held a Shard. She agrees, but wants to go with Elend. So this means Danlinar doesn't HAVE to go to the beyond. Taravangian sees him stretch, and could just assume he is gone to the beyond. If this was Dalinar's POV saying he went there or something like that... then maybe...

For now, I do think some other shard took him somewhere and I am ready to see two dalinars clashing...

Edited February 6, 2025 by Rebeca

[bdoble97]

Before seeing this i was thinking he  was dead dead  But now I'm thinking didn't the  text read somthing about a sliver of honor braking away. It could of gone to Dalinar.  I would've to see Dalinar being a guide to Adloin.  But in the same breath I want Adloin to do what ever he is going to do with out his father

[Ailvara]

I think Dalinar is dead-dead. But it's an open topic what will become of this new Blackthorn. If he ends up undergoing some major character development that will make him just like Dalinar in the end, maybe he could even gain his later memories... Would that make him be really Dalinar? Would anything? I think there's a chance we're gonna see such questions asked.

[AlmightyGir]

Blackthorn becoming similar to Dalinar would have some fairly serious implications about the nature of fate within the Cosmere... Something along the lines of "Dalinar was always capable of becoming, and Cultivation just hastened the process". Would certainly be interesting.

[RedBlue]

I’m withholding judgement on the Blackthorn spren until we see him in action, but I see him as a separate character from Dalinar and expect him to have a different arc.

Repeating Dalinar’s arc, and recreating Dalinar in the process, would feel redundant. And Sanderson is not a writer who tends to recycle characters or their arcs in that way.

[DSCrankshaw]

I don't see Dalinar coming back. Visions of Dalinar by those who knew him, like Dalinar's visions of Nohadon and Evi, or Kaladin's vision of Tien? Definitely. Renarin, Jasnah, Adolin, even Kaladin, one or all may have visions.

By the way, I don't see Honor picking a new vessel. I think Honor is the Vessel. And won't that terrify the rest of the Shards when it happens?

[coolsnow7]

What is the point of explicitly telling us that Dalinar is permanently dead, Cosmere-wise, if not to stop us from speculating this way?

I agree with others who said having the Blackthorn just wind up as Dalinar as we knew him would be redundant. And they’re separate people, so the whole “10 orders represented on the battlefield” bit still wouldn’t work.

A question I would ask Brandon at the next opportunity is whether the 10 Radiant orders represented at Thaylen Field was just symbolic, or if it had more substantive significance for the battle or for Dalinar’s Ascension or what. Because otherwise I’m not sure what that was about.

[Soccorro]

On 2/11/2025 at 12:06 PM, RedBlue said:

And Sanderson is not a writer who tends to recycle characters or their arcs in that way.

Sanderson always recycles character arcs again and again. It’s his bread and butter

[Ninth of the Night]

On 12/16/2024 at 1:54 PM, TheOtherDave said:

Yeah, it really seemed to me like Adolin’s being setup to take Honor.

 

On 2/10/2025 at 8:49 PM, DSCrankshaw said:

By the way, I don't see Honor picking a new vessel.

It wouldn't be easy to become Honor's vessel without also picking up Odium. The Shards are intermingled now, if Taravangian dies he'll drop Retribution, not two separate Shards.

WoB:

Quote

Thanatos17901

If Sazed were to die, would he drop the Shards Ruin and Preservation, or would he drop the Shard Harmony?

Brandon Sanderson

Excellent question. The shards are now intermingled, and would take effort to split apart. He would drop Harmony. (This is what Odium feared would happen, by the way.)

/r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 23, 2013)

As for Dalinar, I honestly can't decide on whether or not I believe he's truly gone. He probably should be, just to prevent any future resurrection shenanigans. However the text was vague enough to warrant speculation. I do feel like it should have been more cut and dry if he was all the way dead, instead we got little nuggets of info that make it seem like he could still be out there somehow.

And that frustrates me a little bit. On one hand I actually want Dalinar to still be alive, but then that would muddy up what has been established as a true death card. Still, I can see some loopholes that would allow both things to be true. Dalinar could end up just being a special case, where he had the full intention of going to the Beyond but was spared by divine intervention (such as another Shard, as many have already theorized). Either way, I'm sure Brando will make it work.

[DiePie]

On 12/13/2024 at 1:45 PM, CognitiveShadow said:

He has all of Dalinar's memories and he seems to be unphased by it initially, but when rubber meets the road he might start to realize he takes issue with the things Retribution commands him to do. He might start to find that real Dalinar had it right, and that he wants to take the next step as well.

In my opinion, this is the most obvious arc for the character to take. Learning to live in service of the people rather than the lord who commands him, and rejecting the latter in favor of the former.

In the Inheritance Cycle (great magic system btw totally recommend if you somehow haven't read) the excuse for why magic is not used to physically enhance people is that something substantive is gained by the process of training, that even though you may end with the same musculature, you won't understand as well how to use it. I would love to talk more about that but now's not the time. Given how clearly the Stormlight Archive advocates for treating the journey as an end unto itself, I don't think the Blackthorn will end where Dalinar did.

Knowing Sanderson, he's got another 3-5 books of (mostly) new character development (and hopefully a space battle or two) in the works for the Blackthorn. And I am very excited hiking that trail with y'all, regardless of which way he goes.

[therationalpi He/Him/355/113]

1 hour ago, DiePie said:

Knowing Sanderson, he's got another 3-5 books of (mostly) new character development (and hopefully a space battle or two) in the works for the Blackthorn. And I am very excited hiking that trail with y'all, regardless of which way he goes.

On the flipside, there have been multiple antagonists with potential for ongoing conflicts that just kind of die before it comes together. Looking only at Stormlight novels I'd say Amaram, Sadeus, and Raboniel all had their stories cut short.

I'm definitely hoping for more from the Blackthorn, including those epic space battles, but there's still a chance that he's eliminated early in the back half of Stormlight.