The Fourth Shard?

[Cocoa he/him]

On 12/11/2024 at 8:01 PM, Mack said:

• The metal under Narak, fragments of the dead moon, can hide things from the Shards. There were people that were previously hidden from Tanavast that he sees while Natanatan is being destroyed. He calls them Watchers so maybe the Sleepless. 
• Tanavast concludes this metal is something "greater than aluminum"

This also reminds me a lot of the Pits of Hathsin/the Kandra homeland. Yes, that was because the Scadrian Shards are blinded by concentrations of metal, but we're still looking at two separate cases of

1. A place that has cracks reaching deep into the ground
2. surrounding a Perpendicularity
3. full of bits of metal
4. that hide things from shardic awareness

That's one heck of a coincidence, in my opinion.

[NewGuy 16]

Oooh, some cool theories here! With regards to the potential of a 4th shard, Taravodium ponders the other shards in I-4: The Wrong Lesson: “He instead was most curious about the fact that two of the Shards appeared to be missing, completely vanished from interacting with the others. Hidden. One he understood with some effort. But Valor—where had Valor gone, and how did she hide from even his eyes?”. We also have some discussion of the other shards from Tanavast/Honor's perspective—for instance, chapter 115: Binding gives us: “WE COULD SENSE EACH OTHER. ALL EXCEPT A FEW—LIKE EURIDRIUS, HOLDER OF REASON—WHO HAD VANISHED. OR LIKE AMBITION, WHO HAD BEEN DESTROYED”, as well as “I MADE ONE FINAL ATTEMPT AT LOCATING VALOR, THE GREAT DRAGON GOD MEDELANTORIUS—AS SHE WAS A WARRIOR WHO WOULD SURELY JOIN ME. MEDELANTORIUS WAS NOT TO BE FOUND, UNFORTUNATELY”. Granted, these chapters are 7000 years apart, so things might have changed, but it seems the suggestion is that Reason might be the shard that took Taravodium some effort to understand? 

[Acolyte of Radiance]

14 hours ago, NewGuy 16 said:

Oooh, some cool theories here! With regards to the potential of a 4th shard, Taravodium ponders the other shards in I-4: The Wrong Lesson: “He instead was most curious about the fact that two of the Shards appeared to be missing, completely vanished from interacting with the others. Hidden. One he understood with some effort. But Valor—where had Valor gone, and how did she hide from even his eyes?”. We also have some discussion of the other shards from Tanavast/Honor's perspective—for instance, chapter 115: Binding gives us: “WE COULD SENSE EACH OTHER. ALL EXCEPT A FEW—LIKE EURIDRIUS, HOLDER OF REASON—WHO HAD VANISHED. OR LIKE AMBITION, WHO HAD BEEN DESTROYED”, as well as “I MADE ONE FINAL ATTEMPT AT LOCATING VALOR, THE GREAT DRAGON GOD MEDELANTORIUS—AS SHE WAS A WARRIOR WHO WOULD SURELY JOIN ME. MEDELANTORIUS WAS NOT TO BE FOUND, UNFORTUNATELY”. Granted, these chapters are 7000 years apart, so things might have changed, but it seems the suggestion is that Reason might be the shard that took Taravodium some effort to understand? 

I stubbornly believe valor is in the meditiate realm with her being a dragon and through the fact only endowment can talk to her. That’s why tanavast a human can’t reach her.

Hoid can communicate with valor for the sole reason he has the meditiative realm dragon bone

[adouloumis]

On 12/15/2024 at 9:31 PM, Aeshdan said:

Building off this theory, I'm going to add three more speculations:

1) The shattered moon is the fourth Dawnshard. Perhaps all four moons were Dawnshards at one point, before the Seventeen took the four Commands and used them to Shatter Adonalsium. Anyway, at some point in between the Shattering and Honor and Cultivation arriving on Roshar, one of the Commands was returned to the moon that once held it.

2) The command for the Moon Dawnshard is "Destroy". We already know two of the Commands are "Change" (something into something else) and "Exist" (keeping something as itself). It's logical to guess that the other two are something like "Create" (making something out of nothing) and "Destroy" (making something into nothing).

3) After it was invested in the moon, the Command was turned on itself, shattering the moon and making it fall from the sky. The fragments of the broken moon are collectively the fourth Dawnshard, and to extract the Command it would be necessary to find and unite them all together. Something like Thanos's trick in Endgame, where he used the Stones to reduce the Stones to particles and scatter them across the universe so they couldn't be used again.

1) I think that is very likely. And the more I think about it, I think Reason was the one who brought the Dawnshard back. Worldhoppers couldn't have come before Honor and Cultivation invested their perpendicularities and the Dawnshards aren't sentient as far as we know. So it had to be someone with FTL capabilities, making a Shard our only known entity capable of such a feat.

2) I personally do not think there will be a Create Dawnshard with them being "the powers of creation" and Investiture not being able to be created or destroyed. I think it will be something along the lines of "Unite" and "Divide". But its pretty much speculation.

3)This seems likely to me.

[maybunny she/her]

I don't really have any opinion on which a fourth shard on Roshar would be, though I do think it would be cool if done well. Honestly, when the fourth moon and four tones of the chasmfiends were mentioned, I was really convinced that it would be Mishram, probably as a god on Roshar pre-shattering, created by Adonalsium. I was actually a bit disappointed by it not being the case.

I did find a couple WOB's that could be of interest to the theory at whole.

 

Spoiler

yfriedd (paraphrased)

Given the Sibling, and the Death Rattle about how "Three of sixteen ruled, but now the Broken One reigns", was there a third Shard on Roshar with Honor and Cultivation prior to Odium's arrival?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

RAFO.

Good question.

ICon 2019 (Oct. 16, 2019)

 

Seems pretty relevant to the topic at hand. 

 

Spoiler

Undercoverwillshaper (paraphrased)

Are there any underwater societies or cities on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

That will be a RAFO. *slides card across table*

FanX 2022 (Sept. 24, 2022)

This is such a random question to get RAFO'd if the answer is actually no. Who have we seen living under a sea elsewhere in the Cosmere? A dragon. If Valor is hiding somewhere on Roshar, might it be under the ocean somewhere?

 

 

[Argenti he/him]

26 minutes ago, maybunny said:

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

yfriedd (paraphrased)

Given the Sibling, and the Death Rattle about how "Three of sixteen ruled, but now the Broken One reigns", was there a third Shard on Roshar with Honor and Cultivation prior to Odium's arrival?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

RAFO.

Good question.

ICon 2019 (Oct. 16, 2019)

  Hide contents

Undercoverwillshaper (paraphrased)

Are there any underwater societies or cities on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

That will be a RAFO. *slides card across table*

FanX 2022 (Sept. 24, 2022)

This is such a random question to get RAFO'd if the answer is actually no. Who have we seen living under a sea elsewhere in the Cosmere? A dragon. If Valor is hiding somewhere on Roshar, might it be under the ocean somewhere?

 

 

I agree in that it's weird he rafoed it. And, I mean there's crab people on a world mostly covered by water. It's not a stretch to imagine there's a Form or intelligent greatshell that can breath underwater.

[Ewery1]

3 minutes ago, Argenti said:

I agree in that it's weird he rafoed it. And, I mean there's crab people on a world mostly covered by water. It's not a stretch to imagine there's a Form or intelligent greatshell that can breath underwater.

32 minutes ago, maybunny said:

I don't really have any opinion on which a fourth shard on Roshar would be, though I do think it would be cool if done well. Honestly, when the fourth moon and four tones of the chasmfiends were mentioned, I was really convinced that it would be Mishram, probably as a god on Roshar pre-shattering, created by Adonalsium. I was actually a bit disappointed by it not being the case.

I did find a couple WOB's that could be of interest to the theory at whole.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

yfriedd (paraphrased)

Given the Sibling, and the Death Rattle about how "Three of sixteen ruled, but now the Broken One reigns", was there a third Shard on Roshar with Honor and Cultivation prior to Odium's arrival?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

RAFO.

Good question.

ICon 2019 (Oct. 16, 2019)

 

Seems pretty relevant to the topic at hand. 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Undercoverwillshaper (paraphrased)

Are there any underwater societies or cities on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

That will be a RAFO. *slides card across table*

FanX 2022 (Sept. 24, 2022)

This is such a random question to get RAFO'd if the answer is actually no. Who have we seen living under a sea elsewhere in the Cosmere? A dragon. If Valor is hiding somewhere on Roshar, might it be under the ocean somewhere?

 

 

Every day my Rysn submarine theory grows stronger…

[tirren]

Late to this discussion, but Odium used to drone on and on about passion. Isn't reason considered the opposite of passion?

[Nitpicking]

28 minutes ago, tirren said:

Late to this discussion, but Odium used to drone on and on about passion. Isn't reason considered the opposite of passion?

Yes, but people who think that are wrong (he said arrogantly).

[Through the Living Shadow he/him]

Personally - I think it’s the sea. The gigantic water/spren/thing left Roshar near the end of the book - this indicates that is isnt too heavily invested in the land. The fall of the moon could indicate the withdrawal of investiture from it - and it also makes sense that other investiture flowed into it, if it was capable of holding. (Thinking of it like a sphere - pull lLight out of a sphere, and a spren can get sucked in)

[Nitpicking]

On 6/7/2025 at 11:59 AM, SpiritOfWrath said:

Personally - I think it’s the sea. The gigantic water/spren/thing left Roshar near the end of the book - this indicates that is isnt too heavily invested in the land. The fall of the moon could indicate the withdrawal of investiture from it - and it also makes sense that other investiture flowed into it, if it was capable of holding. (Thinking of it like a sphere - pull lLight out of a sphere, and a spren can get sucked in)

Cusicesh isn't a Roshari spren, though. It's a Splinter, but not of Honor, Odium, or Cultivation.

Edited June 11, 2025 by Nitpicking

[Through the Living Shadow he/him]

Just now, Nitpicking said:

Cusicesh isn't a Roshari spren, though. It's a Splinter, but not of Honor, Odium, or Cultivation.

Yes

Hut

like

That doesn’t disprove anything.

It could have been a Rosharan spren at one time, but in order for it to leave, it couldn’t be a Rosharan friend.

[Jult]

On 6/7/2025 at 11:59 AM, SpiritOfWrath said:

Personally - I think it’s the sea. The gigantic water/spren/thing left Roshar near the end of the book - this indicates that is isnt too heavily invested in the land. The fall of the moon could indicate the withdrawal of investiture from it - and it also makes sense that other investiture flowed into it, if it was capable of holding. (Thinking of it like a sphere - pull lLight out of a sphere, and a spren can get sucked in)

I created a similar topic recently where I proposed the 4th Moon implies a 4th primeval Spren similar to Wind, Stone, and Night (A Fourth... Everything? - Cosmere Discussion). I suggested 'Day' as a sort of opposite to Night since Brandon loves his push and pull elements. But several people in that topic also suggested some kind of Sea or Ocean spren. Cusicesh came up as a suspect there too, but we didn't get too far with him.

Relevant side note: during the Shardcast interview with Brandon 2 weeks ago, Brandon specifically says [spoilers in case you plan on watching]:

Spoiler

Cusicesh is not a spren. He also said Axies the Collector would classify Cusicesh as a quote "spren-adjacent entity, which is also how he (Axies) would classify Seons". 

 

[Through the Living Shadow he/him]

21 minutes ago, Jult said:

I created a similar topic recently where I proposed the 4th Moon implies a 4th primeval Spren similar to Wind, Stone, and Night (A Fourth... Everything? - Cosmere Discussion). I suggested 'Day' as a sort of opposite to Night since Brandon loves his push and pull elements. But several people in that topic also suggested some kind of Sea or Ocean spren. Cusicesh came up as a suspect there too, but we didn't get too far with him.

Relevant side note: during the Shardcast interview with Brandon 2 weeks ago, Brandon specifically says [spoilers in case you plan on watching]:

  Reveal hidden contents

Cusicesh is not a spren. He also said Axies the Collector would classify Cusicesh as a quote "spren-adjacent entity, which is also how he (Axies) would classify Seons". 

 

Well

I still think that makes sense. It would have to be saturated by a non-Rosharan investiture in order to leave Roshar

And besides

Is the Wind a spren?

[Jult]

8 minutes ago, SpiritOfWrath said:

Is the Wind a spren?

Wit refers to Wind as an 'ancient spren' in chapter 4 of WaT. And Wind refers to herself as a spren in chapter 56:

Quote

"Spren don’t die, they only change forms. We bend to how people see us, and so I am no longer a god. You worship the storm instead."

 

So, I'd tentatively say yes. But the word 'spren' is used pretty inconsistently. Cosmere-aware characters typically speak of spren as strictly Rosharan Splinters that have gained sentience. Whereas most Rosharans call any Splinter they see a spren (Shallan calls Seons spren, for example). 

So, it IS possible that Wit and Wind are both just speaking to Kaladin in terms that a barely-cosmere-aware Rosharan would understand..

The main reason why I'm tentative to say Wind counts is because "normal" spren seem to have gained sentience through the Cognitive influence of the sapient races on Roshar. Whereas it sounds to me like Wind, Stone, and Night were intentionally created with sentience. They're definitely a special case.

[Through The Living Ash he/him]

1 hour ago, Jult said:

Wit refers to Wind as an 'ancient spren' in chapter 4 of WaT. And Wind refers to herself as a spren in chapter 56:

 

So, I'd tentatively say yes. But the word 'spren' is used pretty inconsistently. Cosmere-aware characters typically speak of spren as strictly Rosharan Splinters that have gained sentience. Whereas most Rosharans call any Splinter they see a spren (Shallan calls Seons spren, for example). 

So, it IS possible that Wit and Wind are both just speaking to Kaladin in terms that a barely-cosmere-aware Rosharan would understand..

The main reason why I'm tentative to say Wind counts is because "normal" spren seem to have gained sentience through the Cognitive influence of the sapient races on Roshar. Whereas it sounds to me like Wind, Stone, and Night were intentionally created with sentience. They're definitely a special case.

Somewhere in WaT, I believe it says that along with the Wind, Stone, and Night, some other lesser spren were created sentient (I think it references spren of emotions?), though much of the lesser spren now seen were developed like you said. I don't remember the exact place where it says this.