A Very Long Theory on Magic, derived from Allomancy and God Metals

scientificmotif · December 2, 2024

This theory is a deep rabbit hole started by this thread:

Hilariously, I don't even go into my originally intended ideas on God Metal Feruchemy, and my said ideas instead turned into a really long ramble that might end up to be nigh-unreadable for other people. If you don't care about Cosmere "physics", this is not for you.

This is a wild theory, but bear with me here. Buckle up, folks!

As Era 1 Atium has been retconned to be Atium-Electrum (Yes, it's official):

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

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I will apologize for this. This is a post-Era-1 retcon where I realized I need all the God Metals to do different things, and this is just one of the aspects that comes down. For those who don't know what's going on: I get done with Era 1, I start really working on the nature of metals in the cosmere. I'm like, "Ehhh... Atium really should be burnable by anybody. It's a God Metal. The way God Metals work is not in line with how I've made atium. So what they call atium has to have trace elements of something else, and then there's a pure form of atium out there that would be the true pure God Metal." That is one of those unfortunate retcons when you're doing all this continuity.

The jury's still out on whether it's ANYONE anyone or just Scadrians. If the latter, does it have to do with Connection to the planet, or do you have to be descended from a native Scadrian? In my theories coming up soon, I will assume Scadrians only.

I'll assume that every Seer was really just an A-Electrum misting: to burn alloys of God Metals you have to be able to burn the metal alloyed with the God Metal.

So anybody can burn God metals.

In this WOB: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/270-the-hero-of-ages-annotations/#e8028

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Brandon Sanderson

Atium's Mechanism

Atium is, indeed, different from the other metals. When you burn most Allomantic metals, it opens a conduit through which you can draw upon Preservation's power and use it in very specific ways.

Atium doesn't do that. Atium is, itself, a fuel. When you burn it, the metal itself provides the power. A subtle distinction, I know, but it has to do with where the power is coming from. Most Allomancy is fueled by Preservation, but atium and malatium are fueled by Ruin.

This metal doesn't quite belong on the table where it has been placed.

#allomancy #atium

we find out that when you burn god metals, you do not draw power from preservation, but instead the God Metal is the power source. In other words, burning God Metals is closer to using Stormlight to power surges than burning "regular" metals.

It's theory territory from here on out, if I sound sure about something, I'm probably not. High levels of speculation ahead.

I suspect that burning the mists is not just similar, but exactly the same as burning extremely small amounts of Lerasium. Just like how it's more difficult to Push non-metals than metals, it's more difficult to burn Investiture in non-metallic form than in metallic form, but it is still possible. Vin could burn the mists because her Connection to Preservation was strong enough to overcome the "resistance" of it being a non-metal. This should mean that any Scadrian with a Connection strong enough with Honor, like a Scadrian that somehow became a Bondsmith, should be able to burn Stormlight and get minor effects of burning Tanavastium (Unofficial name for Honor's god metal). Same with any form of any Investiture! Doesn't matter if it's Dor or a type of Light or whatever. Here's where things go from theory to ridiculously insane conjecture with implications to the Cosmere at large:

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Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)
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Overlord Jebus

Is all Investiture in the cosmere associated with a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. *pauses* So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting.

Overlord Jebus

Are they aware of that Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

That's part of the whole seeing into the infinite, being beyond even the power of a Shard. So, technically you could make the argument that Harmony could feel the sense of Preservation on every world in the cosmere, right? Because the building blocks of all life and creation are these things.

Overlord Jebus

So the Shard of Preservation embodies all preservation in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes but he just can't do that, right? Like, he's not infinite. The Vessels are not, even if their minds are enormously expanded by holding a Shard, they are not infinite. The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm.

HOWEVER

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Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 5, 2018)
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James Furr

If, instead of the 16, there had been 20 members at the Shattering of Adonalsium (with the same level of involvedness)...could it have Shattered into 20 pieces?

Brandon Sanderson

It's quite possible that a different number could have ended up working.

#shattering of adonalsium

But wait....

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ReadAndFindOut

In 2014, Brandon said First of the Sun - the planet in Sixth of the Dusk - is a minor Shardworld, in that it does not have a Shard present (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/103-salt-lake-city-comic-con-2014/#e1010). However, we've now gotten a WoB saying that Patji - the Father island - IS a Shard (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8606). Patji was a Shard, but isn't during SotD? Or did we finally get confirmation on that elusive "Survival Shard"? What do you guys think?

Brandon Sanderson

I stand by them. Though, as always, quotes and WoBs at signings aren't always as deliberately thought out as I'd like them to be. Answering questions on the fly can be challenging, and my phrasing can be bad in retrospect.

But no Shard was in residence on First of the Sun during the events of that story. The Investiture on that planet is residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium. Everything happening there could happen with or without a Shard present. Indeed, I would say that no Shard was ever "in residence" on First of the Sun.

The being called Patji still exists, and is a Shard of Adonalsium. Shards in the past have been interested in First of the Sun, and have meddled in small ways there. (Like they have on a lot of Shardworlds.)

Note that I might have been a little misleading in the first quote by bringing up Threnody, which is a real corner case in the cosmere because of uncommon events there.

That said, I'm sure that every story I write about a planet will bring up the quirks and unusual interactions of the magic there, because that's kind of what I do. (First of the Sun has its own oddities, as mentioned in Arcanum Unbounded.) Every planet is likely to end up as a corner case in some way, just like every person is distinctive in their own way, and never fully fits expectations.

I still consider one of the major dividing lines between "major" and "minor" Shardworlds (other than Shard residence) to be in strength of access to the magic, and control over it. I intend the minor Shardworlds to involve interactions with the magic as setting--coming back to spren, you could have a minor Shardworld with people who use, befriend, even bond spren. (Or the local equivalent--Seon, Aviar, etc.) But you'd never see power on the level of the city of Elantris, the actions of a Bondsmith, or even the broad power suite of a Mistborn.

But, as ever, the cosmere is a work in progress. The needs of telling a great story trump things I've said about what I'm planning. (I do try as much as I can to avoid having two texts contradict one another. And when they do, that's often a lapse on my part.)

Oversleep

Wait.

I'm confused.

So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium?

Cause the question was a follow up (on this) where you revealed that all Investiture in Cosmere got assigned to a Shard even if it wasn't part of a Shard.

And then you said that the one on First of the Sun is directly associated with one of the Shards (and since later you revealed Patji to be an avatar of Autonomy (also, what are avatars and how do they work?)) we took it to mean that at one point Autonomy Invested in First of the Sun.

But now you're saying it didn't?

If there was no Shard ever on First of the Sun but Patji is a Shard/avatar of a Shard then where is Patji, actually?

Could you please clarify all that?

Brandon Sanderson

So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium?"

The reason I have so much trouble answering these questions (and you'll see me struggling to get an answer in the 10-15 seconds I have when someone asks me in a signing line) is because this isn't an either or. Is this computer I'm using matter associated with Earth, the Big Bang, or such-and-such star that went supernova long ago? Well, it's probably all three.

When people ask, "What Shard is this Investiture associated with" it gets very complicated. Shards influence and tweak certain Investiture, giving it a kind of spin or magnetism, but all Investiture ever predates the Shattering--and in the cosmere matter, energy, and Investiture are one thing.

I always imagine Investiture having certain states, certain magnetisms if you will, associated with certain aspects of Adonalsium. So it's all "assigned" to a Shard--because it's always been associated with that Shard. To Investiture, Adonalsium's Shattering meant everything and nothing at the same time.

We generally mean the term "Invested" to mean a Shard has taken permanent residence in a location, a kind of base of operations--but at the same time, this is meaningless, since distance has no meaning on the Spiritual Realm, where most Shards are. So imprisonment of a Shard like Ruin or Odium is a crude expression--but the best we have.

Autonomy never "Invested" on First of the Sun. But even answering (as someone else asked) if they created an avatar without visiting is a difficult thing to explain--because even explaining how a Shard travels (when motion is irrelevant) is difficult to manage. It's a subject that I intend to be up for debate, discussion, and argument by in-world philosophers and arcanists.

You can see why I have such troubles explaining these things at signings--and why I fail when I try to, considering the time limitations and (often) fatigue limitations placed upon me. These are concepts I intend to spend entire, lengthy epic volumes explaining and exploring.

Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of Investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "Invested" there? No, no more than you're Invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of matter and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time.

And...I'm already into WAY more than I want to be typing this out right now. If it's confusing, it's because it's practically impossible for me to explain these things in a short span of time.

I'm going to leave it here, understanding that no, I haven't fully explained your question. (I didn't even get into what avatars are, what Patji was, and what happened to Patji the being--and how that relates to Patji the island.) But hopefully this kind of starts to point the right direction, though I probably should have just left this question alone because I bet this post is going to raise more questions than it answers...

Overlord Jebus

You've confused things so much now. We thought we had a pretty good grasp of this whole Patji situation (Autonomy visited the planet at some point, got themselves all Invested and created an avatar which is called Patji by the locals).

Now you're saying no Shard has ever visited there? And that the pool would have existed if no Shard had ever interfered? But that Patji still exists and is a Shard?

Does that mean Autonomy edited First of the Sun from afar without actually going there? And that the pool would have already existed without any intervention? Does this mean it was associated with Autonomy from the beginning? I'm really confused now.

Brandon Sanderson

I don't believe I said no Shard had visited. I said no Shard was there during the events of the story.

Investiture on First of the Sun predates any Shards fiddling with it.

Shards have fiddled with it by the time of the story.

I think fandom might be going down too far a rabbit hole on this one.

Chaos

Are you saying here that Patji is an avatar of Autonomy, or is it a separate Shard and not an avatar of Autonomy?

Brandon Sanderson

When I said Patji was a Shard, I was meaning Automony--but it is not quite that simple.

Take this post to mean "no, you should not be looking toward another Shard for Patji's origins. Autonomy is the one relevant." But Autonomy's relationships with entities like this (not sure entity is the right word, even) is complex. I'm not trying to confuse the issue, though.

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YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)
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Isaac Betzold

Could a Shard be split into smaller Intents, like if Honor were alive and then was split into maybe Integrity and Bravery?

Brandon Sanderson

This is possible. Very plausible. You ask some weird things sometimes, this one is not that weird, this is very plausible.

There are some contradictions here, but that's a whole other thing. The point is this: there is a nearly infinite or actually infinite number of possible Intents. Godmetal is just concentrated Investiture. More diffused Investitures are still burnable. Putting these ideas together, any Investiture with any Intent should be burnable. (In practice, anything but god metals and rarely other states of Investiture associated with a shard could be burned). Change the Intent, change the effects. A Misting using unkeyed Dor burns it and creates stronger versions of the effects that their own metal would create because of their perception of their powers in the Cognitive Realm filters the effects. The unkeyed Dor seems to have no innate Intent of its own (thus the "unkeyed" part).

I'm starting to see something more... fundamental here. It seems possible that Allomancy with the 16 elements is the exception. (If I don't get back to that later, remind me). Burning is simply filtering Investiture through the Allomantic part of your Spirit Web (Much, much easier in metallic form), which interprets the Intent of the Investiture to create an effect, which is also filtered through the Cognitive Realm. I assume that Unkeyed Dor has somehow been turned into "pure Investiture", where either there is no Intent or an equal mixture of all Intents, with no Connection (Thus the "unkeyed" part and why it's described as "pure"). It looks like nearly every magic system works this way: Investiture or energy is "filtered" through something, and creates an effect. AonDor is so versatile because you can change the "filter" by changing your Aons. Feruchemy can flow both ways through the filter of the metalmind: A certain kind of energy to Investiture, and vice verca. Everything makes sense now. Even Hemalurgy can be made to fit: One channels Ruin's power (I think that Ruin's power is the source) to use a spike to pierce a certain point on the body (a filter) to pierce to the Spiritual Realm and steal part of a Spirit Web and affix it to the spike (the effect).

So the formula for magic is Source -> Filter -> Effect.

Most know most of this this intuitively, but some proof and putting it down in rules helps, and some new revelations can be made along the way!

Some more supporting evidence that every magic is a manifestation a single fundamental power:

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I'm probably too late to this party to get a question in, but just in case... The resonances for Edgedancers and Bloodmaker/Slider pairings--are they basically the same thing? It's maybe mostly linguistic for Edgedancers and more like Invested method acting for the Wayne types, but if I'm reading things correctly, it seems that they're very closely related.

After all, Progression and Bloodmaking are quite similar. Abrasion and speed bubbles have a more tenuous link, but they do call bendalloy boys "Sliders," after all (no disrespect to bendalloy girls, but I couldn't pass up the alliteration).

Brandon Sanderson

The connections are more because the magics are all inter-related, and based on fundamental rules, and less because I was trying for any specific connection.

How Allomancy with the 16 Allomantic metals works is there is an extra step: to create the effect. So the extra step is that instead of burning Investiture directly, the metal's subatomic structure (A WoB somewhere said that, I think) resonates with Preservation's power in a certain way and opens a conduit to Preservation's power, which is filtered through the conduit and your Intent to create the effect.

I'd like to clean up this post, and explain why I think "F-God Metals" should be performable by everyone, and how that can explain why medallions can be used by anyone, and try to figure out what metals, including nonallomantic silver, having effects in magics on other worlds means, and probably some other things, but I can't write all day, and I have spent far too long writing this already. Tell me what you think, your problems with the theory, alternate explanations, your thoughts on what it could mean for the Cosmere at large, or something else related! Feel free to summarize this for people who don't feel like reading a novel of a post that jumps from topic to topic and WoB to WoB.

alder24 · December 2, 2024

3 hours ago, scientificmotif said:

The jury's still out on whether it's ANYONE anyone or just Scadrians. If the latter, does it have to do with Connection to the planet, or do you have to be descended from a native Scadrian? In my theories coming up soon, I will assume Scadrians only.

I believe that it's every Allomancer, not every Scadrian, or everyone in Cosmere, just all Allomancers, every Misting and Mistborn can burn pure god metals - only them. And this is how it will be in Mistborn movies.

Spoiler

Dave Smith

Can a Mistborn burn any god metal such as tanavastium?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes they could.

Footnote: Previously Brandon indicated they would need a tie to that type of Investiture.
YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

Long WoB, important part bolded near the end:

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

So, one thing I think I did wrong in the books was not having more allomancer guards and soldiers who were women. I don't think our same gender norms would be the case on Scadrial.

One of the [screenplay] revisions is this: Shan is no longer Elend's fiance, but his sister. Their father has left on business to the outer domninances, and so Shan is making a play to secure the heirship, trying to prove she is more bold and strong than her brother. This is what gives the team an opening, and why they're striking now with the heist, as in this version, House Venture maintains the city policing and has access to the atium stash.

The plan is to put a few Allomancers (including Ham) into the Venture house guard, and exploit Shan's desire to prove herself by creating chaos in the city that she'll think she needs to put down with decisive action. That will involve her pulling out the atium stash, which will in turn let the team know where to go to rob them.

It streamlines the book's story in some elegant ways to do this. Shan becomes the primary "mark" of the book, in many ways. It also lets me explain a little more succinctly what various members of the crew are doing in the background while we focus on Vin, who is to get close to Shan as a confidant--which is why she's sent to the parties. And why Shan being a brat to her isn't just annoying, it means a major part of the plan isn't yet in place.

It explains way better, in my opinion, why Shan would act against Elend. It's all clicking into place as I move pieces around. That said, I understand those who want a Television show. I could see going that way, perhaps.

Trouble is, nobody in streaming needs a big fantasy property. Anywhere I go right now, I'd be in a distant second or third place to Tolkien, WoT, Witcher, or Kingkiller. The offers I've gotten have been for a fraction of the budget of those shows--since everyone has already spent big money on their big fantasy show, and isn't really interested in another.

I'm confident feature is the place I want Mistborn; but even if I weren't, I'm not thrilled by the idea of being lost on Netflix as their "other" fantasy show.

Rapharasium

I don't know if I'm being negative, but these changes really worry and disappoint me. I really like Era 1 as it is, and all this change in the dynamics of society and the plot as too drastic.

Brandon Sanderson

This isn't negative; I understand this response, and think it's valid.

At the same time, I'm of the personal philosophy that a film should generally be a different beast than a book--a book can lean into the little intricacies of a story, while a film should be a bold but unified statement.

Nothing will happen to the books; those will remain the same. But if I want this film to work as a film, I believe I need to be willing to re-imagine parts of the story.

Mycroft_canner

With Elend having a sister does that mean you don’t need the Zane plot anymore?

Brandon Sanderson

That's from the second book--so it would be in the television show, and we'd likely still do it.

DataLoreHD

prove she is more bold and strong than her brother

Which brother?It certainly could not be Elend, right? Elend had no Allomancy powers (before he ate the lerasium in WoA), so Straff despised Elend and thought him too weak.And Zane was a bastard and also mad dog.If Shan was Straff's legitimate daughter, then her succession was already 100% secure. She wouldn't need to prove anything to anybody.

Brandon Sanderson

It will be Elend, but it's more that this is the first time that Shan gets to be on her own, leading by herself, and wants to show off for the Lord Ruler. Also, there's the question of whether the male heir--though inferior in this case--might get the nod for sexism reasons. I think it's going to work just fine, but I'll admit, it's getting a little rough to discuss all these details on a thread like this--I can't answer everyone's questions, I'm afraid. I just wanted to indicate the kinds of changes I'm looking at making.

Whatever I do will go through my standard "show it to tons of beta readers and get feedback" process, so I should be able to catch problems and fix them.

meh84f

The bit about atium is a bit confusing. The Ventures are going to have the Atium stash? Not the stash that we don’t find until the end I’m assuming? So it’ll be a stash but much smaller than expected?

Brandon Sanderson

So, I'm not sure I can explain it all in this, but one big change I wished I'd made from the start of Mistborn is making atium usable by all Allomancers. As I've gotten further in the cosmere, using a god metal as just for Mistborn has felt off.

So the lore change for the films will mean any Allomancer can use atium. This, in turn, lets House Venture have access to the LR's atium as a "Control the city" last resort. They keep a task force of allomancers for this purpose--which Ham can join, in anticipation of being able to steal it once Shan accesses it. (They don't know that House Venture is only given about a hundred beads of atium, not access to the full mythical cache, which will be reserved for the third movie.)

Makes the worldbuilding and storytelling more elegant, I've found, in the film. And it fits better with more "modern" cosmere fundamentals as have developed over the last decade. I think I'd make this change even if we moved to a television show and long form.

The Lord Ruler is still the "big bad" but Shan and the Inquisitors both get a little more screen time. (Actually, about the same as in the books--it's just that other parts are being trimmed, making them more front-and-center.)

Phantine

Based on that, you're also streamlining away the Sign of Sixteen if it gets a sequel? To be honest, that didn't really work for me in the novel anyway.

Brandon Sanderson

It's one of my least favorite parts of the trilogy. It (along with Vin drawing upon the mists in book one) are big changes I'm hoping to make to fix weaker sections of the continuity.

General Reddit 2020 (June 22, 2020)

3 hours ago, scientificmotif said:

I suspect that burning the mists is not just similar, but exactly the same as burning extremely small amounts of Lerasium.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, the magics would...oh, all the alloys in Roshar naturally occurring… The magic of Mistborn is related to the actual metals' structure being the key. So, you can use metals from other worlds, there's no actual power in the metal. The metal is like a password.

Shadows of Self San Jose signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

Spoiler

Questioner

If you were divesting yourself of all Identity, and then tapped a massive amount of Connection and Investiture, would you be able to instantly have access to, say, the Surges on Roshar without oaths?

Brandon Sanderson

So, you wanna get the Surges without oaths? What you're saying is you divest yourself of Identity, you highly Invest yourself... You're still going to need something that's gonna tell that Investiture what to be and how to manifest in yourself. And so if it's the right Intent then maybe, right? 'Cause you can have both Identity and Intent on Investiture and you can unkey it to one or the other or both. And so that might be... But the thing is, you're still gonna have to know... This is a step toward getting what you want, but there's still gotta be something that tells it... "You're holding a massive amount of Investiture, what do I do with this? Do I teleport you across the Cosmere to another planet? What do I do with it?" And you're gonna have to have something to give structure to that Investiture. You're missing a step.

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

MischiefIsMe · December 2, 2024

3 hours ago, scientificmotif said:

It seems possible that Allomancy with the 16 elements is the exception. (If I don't get back to that later, remind me). Burning is simply filtering Investiture through the Allomantic part of your Spirit Web (Much, much easier in metallic form), which interprets the Intent of the Investiture to create an effect, which is also filtered through the Cognitive Realm.

I really like the depth of thought you've obviously put into your theory! But especially with the response from Alder24 above, I can't say I see Allomancy as the exception to the basic rule you posited: Source -> Filter -> Effect. If we accept your theory that Ruin is the Source for Hemalurgy and we know the type of metal is important in Hemalurgy then the metal itself rather than the body acts a filter which makes it that much more similar to Allomancy where the metals are used as filters to access a Shard's power.

And I like the basic idea of the Magic Formula as a simplified explanation for how Shardic Investiture is intentionally used, but I don't see how it would exclude any such magic system. The metallic arts use metals as filters, Selish magics use the local landscape for form-based formulas as filters, fabrials use metals/gemstone/variety of spren as filters, Surgebinding on Roshar uses the Nahel bond to certain varieties of spren and oaths, Awakening uses Commands, Aviars use the species of bird, Sand Mastery uses a specific kind of microorganism, etc. The real beauty of your Magic Formula is that it applies to all intentional applications of Investiture (with room for context and nuance depending on the specific magic system, naturally).

34 minutes ago, alder24 said:

You could use investiture from other Shards to fuel your Metallic Arts, but unless it's solid, you will be able to replace metals with them, not get a new effect. Raw investiture without this molecular structure (non-solids) doesn't have anything that tells it what it does and thus it acts just like a fuel where something else tells it what to do (Dor, Mists Stormlight and all this stuff).

I really like this and part of why is because all non-solid/fluid forms of Investiture will have the same molecular configuration: none. They might have different chemical compositions but without the rigid structure of a solid to craft the filter of Intent/application, you just have a soup made of atoms of a Shard's pure Investiture (it's own new element on the periodic table as you pointed out) bouncing around whatever volume may be confining it. Without that filter, all it can be is fuel but given that it would still be a specific Shard's Investiture it would need to either be stripped of Identity or the user would have to have sufficient Connection to that Shard in order to use it to fuel their magic(s).

Treamayne · December 2, 2024

1 hour ago, MischiefIsMe said:

I really like this and part of why is because all non-solid/fluid forms of Investiture will have the same molecular configuration: none. They might have different chemical compositions but without the rigid structure of a solid to craft the filter of Intent/application, you just have a soup made of atoms of a Shard's pure Investiture

Actually, Gaseous Investiture does not have atoms at all (nor axi) because there is a demonstrated difference in ways that Investiture may enter the physical realm.

The Triad is "Energy - Matter - Investiture" and they can change forms. Investiture can become Energy or Matter (etc.) but that does not mean that all Investiture in the Physical Realm has become either matter or energy.

Godmetals are Investiture that has converted to Matter in a Solid State. However - Mist, Stormlight, and Breath - are specifically shown to be Gaseous Investiture but not Investiture converted to Matter in a Gaseous State. Those examples are repeatedly shown to ignore things like wind. They do not eddy when physical objects pass through them. As far back as TFE, the Mist reacts to Allomancy because it is still in a state of Investiture - not a state of matter. Vivenna fails to ward off Lemex's Breath because Breath is not a Gaseous matter that can be waved aside with air pressure. Furthermore, when a Shardblade is Summoned, you can see that the investiture enters the Physical Realm as Mist, which them coalesces before changing into it's final Physical Solid Matter State.

Likewise, Vin points out that the Well might look like Liquid, but it does not feel or act like Liquid (because it is a Liquid Investiture - not Investiture converted to a Liquid Matter State). Compare that to Devotion's Shardpool in Elantris, where it both looks and acts like Liquid but still has Investiture Properties (likely because the Dor is Trapped in the Cognitive, so the "lake" impression holds more sway over how it manifests in the Physcial). I'll have to do some digging to verify, but as best as I can recall, the only other example we have of Investiture in a Liquid Matter state is Nightblood (when fully drawn) since some of the investiture acts as Physical Gas, and some as Physical Liquid - both before they convert to Investiture and dissipate.

Warbreaker Ch 56:

Spoiler

He ran forward and grabbed Nightblood’s hilt and pulled the sword free, leaving the sheath behind in the body.

The blade sprayed a wave of black liquid as he swung it. The liquid dissolved into smoke before touching walls or ﬂoor, like water in an oven. Smoke twisted, some rising from the blade, some falling in a stream to the ﬂoor, dripping like black blood.

Destroy! Nightblood’s voice boomed in his head.

<snip>

Vasher spun among them, striking with wrath, killing Lifeless after Lifeless. Black smoke churned around him

In the fight scene we see both the liquid and gaseous investiture acting as matter, before dissipating - as opposed to Liquid and Gaseous Investiture that may appear to be matter, but do not behave as matter.

Hope that helps

Edited December 2, 2024 by Treamayne
SPAG

MischiefIsMe · December 2, 2024

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Actually, Gaseous Investiture does not have atoms at all (nor axi) because there is a demonstrated difference in ways that Investiture may enter the physical realm.

I see... so my first sentence in my response was in fact correct then lmao.

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Likewise, Vin points out that the Well might look like Liquid, but it does not feel or act like Liquid (because it is a Liquid Investiture - not Investiture converted to a Liquid Matter State). Compare that to Devotion's Shardpool in Elantris, where it both looks and acts like Liquid but still has Investiture Properties (likely because the Dor is Trapped in the Cognitive, so the "lake" impression holds more sway over how it manifests in the Physcial). I'll have to do some digging to verify, but as best as I can recall, the only other example we have of Investiture in a Liquid Matter state is Nightblood (when fully drawn) since some of the investiture acts as Physical Gas, and some as Physical Liquid - both before they convert to Investiture and dissipate.

What about Cultivation's Perpendicularity at the Horneater Peaks? Rock described them as "waters of life", would that not imply a more physical manifestation of concentrated liquid state Investiture? Also, didn't Kelsier tell Vin in Hero of Ages that the power at the Well came in three states: "solid in the nugget fed to Elend, liquid in the pool, and gas in the air you breath" (quoted from memory so I apologize for inaccuracy)?

Treamayne · December 2, 2024

5 minutes ago, MischiefIsMe said:

What about Cultivation's Perpendicularity at the Horneater Peaks? Rock described them as "waters of life", would that not imply a more physical manifestation of concentrated liquid state Investiture?

That is their name in the Horneater Language - when the description impies that it is like the Well - except that the top of the Perpendicularity is hidden under the lake at-depth, rather than open to the air above it. WoR Ch 46:

Spoiler

“Is not just water,” Rock said. “Is water of life. It is connection to gods. If Unkalaki swim in it, sometimes they see place of gods.”

Kaladin leaned forward at that. His mind had been drifting toward how to help Bridge Eighteen with their discipline problems. This struck him. “Place of the gods?”

“Yes,” Rock said. “Is where they live. The waters of life, they let you see place. In it, you commune with gods, if you are lucky.”

“Is that why you can see spren?” Kaladin asked. “Because you swam in these waters, and they did something to you?”

“Is not part of story,” Rock said as his second mug of ale arrived. He grinned at Ka. “You are very wonderful woman. If you come to the Peaks, I will make you family.”

“Just pay your tab, Rock,” Ka said, rolling her eyes. As she moved off to collect some empty mugs, Peet jumped up to help her, surprising her by gathering some from another table.

“You can see the spren,” Kaladin pressed, “because of what happened to you in these waters.”

“Is not part of story,” Rock said, eyeing him. “It is . . . involved. I will say no more of this thing.”

“I’d like to visit,” Lopen said. “Go for a dip myself.”

“Ha! Is death to one not of our people,” Rock said. “I could not let you swim. Even if you beat me at drinking tonight.” He raised an eyebrow at Lopen’s drink.

“Swimming in the emerald pools is death to outsiders,” Sigzil said, “because you execute outsiders who touch them.”

“No, this is not true. Listen to story. Stop being boring.”

“They’re just hot springs,” Sigzil grumbled, but returned to his drink.

Rock rolled his eyes. “On top, is water. Beneath, is not. Is something else. Water of life. The place of the gods. This thing is true. I have met a god myself.”

Kelsier's Quote:

Spoiler

SH Part 6 Ch 7:

Quote

Kelsier rammed himself against Ruin, the powers clashing, exposing his soul. His darkened, battered soul.

“The power came from the Well of Ascension, of course,” Kelsier said to Vin. “It’s the same power, after all. Solid in the metal you fed to Elend. Liquid in the pool you burned. And vapor in the air, confined to night. Hiding you. Protecting you . . .”

Kelsier took a deep breath. He felt Preservation’s energy being ripped from him. He felt Ruin’s fury pummeling him, flaying him, ravenous to destroy him. For one last moment he felt the world. The farthest ashfall, the people in the distant south, the curling winds and the life straining—struggling—to continue on this planet.

Then Kelsier did the most difficult thing he’d ever done.

“Giving you power!” he roared to Vin, letting go of Preservation’s essence so she could take it up.

Vin drew in the mists.

HoA Ch 72:

Spoiler

Fortunately, the pain was fading. Everything was fading. It was black.

Please, she thought, reaching out to the mists with one final plea. They felt so familiar all of a sudden. Where had she felt that feeling before? Where did she know them?

From the Well of Ascension, of course, a voice whispered in her head. It’s the same power, after all. Solid in the metal you fed to Elend. Liquid in the pool you burned. And vapor in the air, confined to night. Hiding you. Protecting you.

Giving you power!

Vin gasped, drawing in breath—a breath that sucked in the mists.

But Kelsier's Comment isn't indicative of whether or not the "power" is in a state of matter. Radiants breath in Stormlight as Gaseous Investiture, not Investiture converted to Gaseous matter. The same was true every time Vin burned the Mists. In fact, they are so similar that WoB:

Spoiler

OrangeJedi

Can you capture Preservation’s mist in a sphere?

Brandon Sanderson

This is plausible.

Orem Signing (March 16, 2019)

Hope that helps.

scientificmotif · December 2, 2024

1 hour ago, MischiefIsMe said:

I really like the depth of thought you've obviously put into your theory! But especially with the response from Alder24 above, I can't say I see Allomancy as the exception to the basic rule you posited: Source -> Filter -> Effect. If we accept your theory that Ruin is the Source for Hemalurgy and we know the type of metal is important in Hemalurgy then the metal itself rather than the body acts a filter which makes it that much more similar to Allomancy where the metals are used as filters to access a Shard's power.

I'm sorry that I wasn't clear enough. What I meant was burning concentrated Investiture is more fundamental to Allomancy than burning Allomantic metals. I did not mean that Allomancy does not follow the model.

1 hour ago, MischiefIsMe said:

I really like the depth of thought you've obviously put into your theory! But especially with the response from Alder24 above, I can't say I see Allomancy as the exception to the basic rule you posited: Source -> Filter -> Effect. If we accept your theory that Ruin is the Source for Hemalurgy and we know the type of metal is important in Hemalurgy then the metal itself rather than the body acts a filter which makes it that much more similar to Allomancy where the metals are used as filters to access a Shard's power.

And I like the basic idea of the Magic Formula as a simplified explanation for how Shardic Investiture is intentionally used, but I don't see how it would exclude any such magic system. The metallic arts use metals as filters, Selish magics use the local landscape for form-based formulas as filters, fabrials use metals/gemstone/variety of spren as filters, Surgebinding on Roshar uses the Nahel bond to certain varieties of spren and oaths, Awakening uses Commands, Aviars use the species of bird, Sand Mastery uses a specific kind of microorganism, etc. The real beauty of your Magic Formula is that it applies to all intentional applications of Investiture (with room for context and nuance depending on the specific magic system, naturally).

I really like this and part of why is because all non-solid/fluid forms of Investiture will have the same molecular configuration: none. They might have different chemical compositions but without the rigid structure of a solid to craft the filter of Intent/application, you just have a soup made of atoms of a Shard's pure Investiture (it's own new element on the periodic table as you pointed out) bouncing around whatever volume may be confining it. Without that filter, all it can be is fuel but given that it would still be a specific Shard's Investiture it would need to either be stripped of Identity or the user would have to have sufficient Connection to that Shard in order to use it to fuel their magic(s).

A few nuances I want to clarify:

1. Spikes AND the body (and Intent, as always) are involved in the filter of Hemalurgy. The Spiritual realm doesn't really have location; "Piercing into the Spiritual Realm" is a crude term that I use to try and describe it. Understanding this, location on the body wouldn't directly effect where the spike pierces on someone's Spiritweb unless it's part of the magic. Magics essentially are the filters, so if body location is part of the magic, it's part of the filter. It should like this:

1. If object piercing the body is metal and the person's Intent is to use Hemalurgy, then Ruin's power is taken from the Spiritual Realm.

2. Use the point where the body is pierced to determine which part of the Spiritweb to pierce, go to 3a. If the spike has a Hemalurgic charge already, go to step 3b instead.

3a. Ruin's power is used to remove the part of the Spiritweb determined earlier and sever its Connection to the rest of the Spiritweb. Because the incision is violent and imprecise, parts of the Spiritweb "around" the part where it is pierced come off with it too, thus Identity Contamination, Inquisitor insanity, and the nastiness of Hemalurgic Constructs. Additional damage (that is healable, unlike the parts taken away) to the Spiritweb is caused by Ruin's Investiture, both because it's violently forcing its way in and, well, it's Ruin's investiture. Connect the "spirit-fragment" to the spike, but only if it's metal corresponding to the spiking point . Because it's un-Connected for a short time, a significant portion of the S-F dissolves, thus the loss of power. The S-F will dissolve further (much more slowly) while the spike is not being used, stored in blood, or other precautions are not taken to prevent the Investiture from leaking away. (Because the spike is an imperfect "vessel" of the power, probably) If the spike is not composed of the correct metal or alloy, the S-F simply dissolves entirely as it stays un-Connected. All of the S-F that dissolves turns into Investiture and is released into the SR.

3b. Ruin's power is used to violently intrude into the SW and Connect the SF to the spikee's SW. Again, the violence and imprecision causes widespread damage to the SW, contributing to aforementioned Hemalurgic nastiness. Note that the spike is still connected to the SF, and if the spike is removed from the spikee's body in the PR the Connection to the spikee's SW is severed. The spike provides an easy entry point into your Spiritweb , although it seems it takes 3+ spikes for an invader to do anything but mess with the spikee's perception of the world. 3+ means intrusion into the Spiritweb is extremely easy (unless additional measures are taken) and mind control is possible. (Ruin, emotional Allomancers, and certainly other things we haven't seen yet) It's likely that other things can be done with these entry points. Without these entry points, brute force (requiring much more power to work) is needed to intrude into the SW (Like what hemalurgy does) and large amounts of damage is caused to the SW, as seen in First of the Sun.

2. In Allomancy, an Allomancer's Connection to Preservation and SW are also used to determine how much Investiture is drawn from Preservation is drawn. I should also add that with God Metals, power is being drawn from the bead itself, so unlike other metals you shouldn't be able to be more powerful in it

I want to note that my "filter" metaphor should actually be changed to focuses, as it seems to be a more accurate metaphor.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

I believe that it's every Allomancer, not every Scadrian, or everyone in Cosmere, just all Allomancers, every Misting and Mistborn can burn pure god metals - only them. And this is how it will be in Mistborn movies.

The movies aren't out yet, and non-Allomancers not being able to burn God Metals except Lerasium requires extra explanation, and it kind of Ruins (Ha) a lot of my theories. I'm going to use Ocam's Razor and say that people assume that only Allomancers can use Atium and it's possible but nobody has used the right Intent and only the TLR knows. Or it is possible and known to the general public that non-Allomancers can use Atium and stuff, and Brandon is using "All Allomancers can use Atium" (A true statement if all Scadrians can use God Metals) to keep everyone being able to use Atium a surprise. Might be copium on my part. Wonder what burning that would do?

Trusk'our · December 2, 2024

3 hours ago, scientificmotif said:

A few nuances I want to clarify:

1. Spikes AND the body (and Intent, as always) are involved in the filter of Hemalurgy. The Spiritual realm doesn't really have location; "Piercing into the Spiritual Realm" is a crude term that I use to try and describe it. Understanding this, location on the body wouldn't directly effect where the spike pierces on someone's Spiritweb unless it's part of the magic. Magics essentially are the filters, so if body location is part of the magic, it's part of the filter.

If I'm understanding your idea correctly, I think I agreed: the bindpoints on a person's body are "filter" that the physical realm imposes on the Spiritweb, just like how the brain is a physical realm filter for the cognitive aspect (and thus why covering your head with aluminum is enough to block Emotional Allomancy). This is why location is so important to Hemalurgy. It's just a way the physical realm interacts with the spiritual.

Quote

3a. Ruin's power is used to remove the part of the Spiritweb determined earlier and sever its Connection to the rest of the Spiritweb. Because the incision is violent and imprecise, parts of the Spiritweb "around" the part where it is pierced come off with it too, thus Identity Contamination, Inquisitor insanity, and the nastiness of Hemalurgic Constructs. Additional damage (that is healable, unlike the parts taken away) to the Spiritweb is caused by Ruin's Investiture, both because it's violently forcing its way in and, well, it's Ruin's investiture.

I would add that I think the damage caused to a spike's recipient isn't entirely the result of extra or misaligned Spiritweb fragments.

Hemalurgy needs a way to enter the soul, to bridge the gap between the spike's Spiritweb and the recipient's. The spike breaks open a crack to let its Investiture in, which I think cannot truly be stopped as long as the spike is in place, no matter how finely cut the Spiritweb was.

I certainly think this bridge can be reduced with more precision and better Intent, and the excess cracks potentially plugged with extra Investiture through certain means, but for the spike to function it fundamentally requires a crack.

Edited December 2, 2024 by Trusk'our

alder24 · December 2, 2024

3 hours ago, scientificmotif said:

The movies aren't out yet, and non-Allomancers not being able to burn God Metals except Lerasium requires extra explanation, and it kind of Ruins (Ha) a lot of my theories.

Lerasium making people into Mistborn is a side effect, Lerasium burned by an Allomancer, who knows what he's doing, would do something else. The first time you burn Lerasium it's not you that's burning it, it's your body (4th WoB in my previous post). And Lerasium is not the only one like this, there are other metals like it, probably Edglium because of the nature of Endowment, who's about giving with no string attached. Preservation similarly is about giving to preserve, strengthen and protect. The nature of both Shards is strongly about giving, which would make their god metals burnable by everyone and give them a side effect. An Allomancer still would get something else and more from those metals.

Extra explanations were already provided, you just have to connect the dots.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Thirty-Eight

Preservation's Power

All right, so maybe I lied about there only being three magic systems in this book. It comes down to how you term the powers of Preservation and Ruin, who kind of blanket the entire system. There are a lot of things going on here, and—well, the truth is I don't want to mention all of them, for fear of spoiling future books. However, I'll give you a few rules to apply.

First, to these forces, energy and mass are the same thing. So, their power can take physical shape—as Preservation's did in the bead of metal Elend ate. Second, there is a bit of Preservation inside of all the people—and it's this that allows the people to perform Allomancy. It needs to be awakened and stirred to be of use, but when it is, a proper metal can draw forth more of Preservation's power. It's like the metal attunes the bit within the person, allowing it to act as a catalyst to grab more power.

Allomancy is not fueled by metal; it is fueled by Preservation. The metal is the means by which a person can access that fuel, however. If there were another way to access it, then the metal wouldn't be needed.

Preservation's touch on people differs. Some have more, some have less. This doesn't make them better or worse people—indeed, some most touched by Preservation have been among the worst people in the world. As Ruin later points out, there is a difference between being evil and being destructive.

Regardless, if a person can get more Preservation into them, they become better Allomancers. Hence Elend becoming a Mistborn. Like all people, he had the potential within him—it was just too small of a potential to be awakened through normal means. That little jolt of Preservation's body, however, expanded and awakened his Allomancy.

As a tidbit, that was a side effect of what that bead of metal did. It wasn't the main purpose of the bead, and if another Allomancer were to burn it, it would do something else.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (Nov. 12, 2009)

Spoiler

mail-mi

We know that any person can burn lerasium. Are there other God Metals that any person can burn?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

Spoiler

Badger1289

If Investiture can’t be moved beyond a certain point away from its world/solar system, how in the Cosmere did three Awakeners end up on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

Investiture from different systems acts in different ways. Certain people have managed, for example, to get some kinds of Investiture to leave their home world through the use of a kind of magical pipeline. Breaths attach to the identity of the individual, and are fully given away--freely, which removes some of this Connection. It's a nature of Endowment that the gift is given without strings attached, so to speak. But while it's a renewable resource, it's a difficult one.

Roshar is extra "sticky" so to speak with Investiture. It's part of the nature of Honor, Cultivation, and oaths. So getting it off is a problem, though collecting it is not.

Echono

Wouldn't consuming it also be a problem? You need a direct or secondary Bond to take in Stormlight Investiture. It's not like metals or Breaths that anyone could absorb. Although a certain grouchy ardent might have found a way...

Brandon Sanderson

You are right in that Stormlight is more being seen as a power source, since certain systems in the cosmere can work on a variety of different kinds. Not just anyone could make use of it, at least not unless it is refined.

Rhythm of War Preview Q&As (Oct. 8, 2020)

Spoiler

Chaos

Allomancy provides many very dramatic effects, which some have noted is not very much like Preservation. Could you walk me through how Allomancy is of Preservation, though it does dramatic, dynamic things?

Brandon Sanderson

One of the 'basics' of the magic in all of the worlds is that the energy of Shards can fuel all kinds of interactions, not just interactions based on their personality/role. I did this because otherwise, the Magics would all be extremely limited.

The 'role' of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do. So, in Preservation's case, the magic is a gift--allowing a person to preserve their own strength, and rely upon the strength granted by the magic. While Hemalurgy has a huge cost, ending in net entropy.

/r/fantasy AMA 2011 (Aug. 31, 2011)

scientificmotif · December 3, 2024

16 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

If I'm understanding your idea correctly, I think I agreed: the bindpoints on a person's body are "filter" that the physical realm imposes on the Spiritweb, just like how the brain is a physical realm filter for the cognitive aspect (and thus why covering your head with aluminum is enough to block Emotional Allomancy). This is why location is so important to Hemalurgy. It's just a way the physical realm interacts with the spiritual.

I would add that I think the damage caused to a spike's recipient isn't entirely the result of extra or misaligned Spiritweb fragments.

Hemalurgy needs a way to enter the soul, to bridge the gap between the spike's Spiritweb and the recipient's. The spike breaks open a crack to let its Investiture in, which I think cannot truly be stopped as long as the spike is in place, no matter how finely cut the Spiritweb was.

I certainly think this bridge can be reduced with more precision and better Intent, and the excess cracks potentially plugged with extra Investiture through certain means, but for the spike to function it fundamentally requires a crack.

I already noted in 3b that the recipient's SW does indeed get cracked open and thus damage occurs. I should've been clearer: 3a is the process of stealing Allomantic powers, and 3b is the process of someone receiving a spike.

20 hours ago, scientificmotif said:

3b. Ruin's power is used to violently intrude into the SW and Connect the SF to the spikee's SW. Again, the violence and imprecision causes widespread damage to the SW, contributing to aforementioned Hemalurgic nastiness. Note that the spike is still connected to the SF, and if the spike is removed from the spikee's body in the PR the Connection to the spikee's SW is severed. The spike provides an easy entry point into your Spiritweb , although it seems it takes 3+ spikes for an invader to do anything but mess with the spikee's perception of the world. 3+ means intrusion into the Spiritweb is extremely easy (unless additional measures are taken) and mind control is possible. (Ruin, emotional Allomancers, and certainly other things we haven't seen yet) It's likely that other things can be done with these entry points. Without these entry points, brute force (requiring much more power to work) is needed to intrude into the SW (Like what hemalurgy does) and large amounts of damage is caused to the SW, as seen in First of the Sun.

As to some discussion above about states of Investiture, Physical Realm manifestations of metals are strange at best and baffling at worst:

Quote

So harmonium, we have a working theory that the reason it's so volatile is because some of the subatomic particles are associated with Ruin and some of them are [of?] Preservation. Is that true?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, that's basically what's going on is that it's creating a very unstable metal. Now, it is in the nature of the Cosmere not a compound but an element. But, you could call it a subatomic particle sure. It's very volatile because it is in nature spiritually in contrast with itself. And so though it is a single element rather than a compound, the spiritual nature is not happy as it is, and you can set up in the physical realm, through reactivity things that would just rip it apart and really your energy is not, your energy in that is actually pulling from the Spiritual realm, and so that's why it can be so much more explosive than even the chemistry would account for.

Ironeyes

So it's not that the subatomic particles are invested, it's that they have a spiritual identity which causes them to...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Ironeyes

So then it's not creating an oxide because after the spiritual energy goes away from the explosion then it's a different metal, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Right, and...

Ironeyes

So you can't find harmonium oxide in the water afterwards.

Brandon Sanderson

Right right right right. Because it's not, it's, yeah. But you might be able to find something else, which is really relevant to the Cosmere. And to Scadrial.

Ironeyes

So the core elements, the core particles, having extra repulsion causes them to have a nuclear potential.

Brandon Sanderson

I would not call it nuclear because it's not the same exact thing. But there is a Cosmere equivalent. To - I mean, you could do nuclear power just the same in the Cosmere, but since we have a third kind of state of matter, right? Matter, energy, Investiture. You have a third axis that, you know, you can release energy from matter, you can release investiture from matter, and things like that. So it's similar, but following its own rules that I have a little more - that are controlled by me, right, that are built on this idea. So once you add *inaudible*, matter now can exist in this third state, you get all sorts of weird things, which one of the things that happens is, you can get an energy release in sort of the same way. A reaction, I'm not going to call it a nuclear reaction, but of the same vein.

Harmonium sort of has a chemical reaction with water, that makes it explode. And Harmonium is an element and not a compound (Which is strange, considering the Shard of Harmony is more of a compound than an element as a shard), and even though it's supposedly an element, when it explodes some measure of Lerasium and Atium powder can be left behind.

It feels like PR manifestation of Investiture is just pretending to not be matter, but nope, it's Investiture only....

Quote

Share Copy

Play/Pause

Chaos

Is atium Invested?

Brandon Sanderson

Is atium Invested? Atium is Investiture distilled into the Physical Realm, right? So is electricity electric? Or is it--

Chaos

Well I think the question Sharders had was if it's Invested, how can people Push and Pull on it. That was the struggle.

Brandon Sanderson

Atium breaks a lot of rules, in the same way that you will see other things break rules. Atium plays weirdly. When you get distilled Investiture, you're starting like-- My kind of rule for myself is it's kind of like when you start going on the quantum level, the rules just start playing weirdly. Because it's like, what Realm does atium exist in-- is another thing. Because-- Pure Investiture like that is like a mini black hole, right? It's like existing in three Realms at once. Kind of, and things like that... There's lots of weirdness.

The writerly answer is there is lots of weirdness because when I built atium, I didn't have the rest of the cosmere built, right? And so it breaks a lot of rules that I later set up that everything else has to follow, right? So the writerly answer is we just have to accept that atium and lerasium and some of these other distilled Investiture things are going to play very weirdly with the magic systems. But that's okay. Nightblood will too, and some of these things that were built even after the cosmere was coming together.

It feels like this might help to explain why God Metals have different effects than other forms of Investiture...

A Very Long Theory on Magic, derived from Allomancy and God Metals

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