AnthonyC4 Posted November 29, 2024 Posted November 29, 2024 I was thinking about it, and the "destroy" part seems to be well translated, even if absorption isn't my go-to when I think of destroying things. But how does "Evil" turn into "Investiture"? This leads me to consider that one of the following might be true: Investiture is evil This would tie into a possible explanation as to why people thought the Shattering was necessary, as demonstrated by the following WoB: Quote Questioner Did Hoid think of the Shattering as necessary? Brandon Sanderson *pause* Kind of. It would also seem to line up with the general "consequences matter" morality Brandon seems to champion in Stormlight, though it might be a bit of a stretch to take that to assume evil is a tangible real measurable thing. But this is the explanation that makes the translation the clearest and most direct. Adonalsium is evil Now this might seem similar to the previous point, but different in the sense that now evil is no longer a tangible physical thing that can be ascribed to investiture at large. Now, we assume that Adonalsium itself, whatever form it took, be it man, god, or force, was in large part an evil entity. And since all Investiture is Adonalsium, and Adonalsium is evil, then by extension all investiture is evil. But instead of the direct ascribement of evil to Investiture, it is only evil by association to Adonalsium. The fact that Endowment was involved in the creation of Nightblood, who would have had the context necessary to make such an assertion, makes this seem more plausible. Something else is evil Some important things to note here, because I'm struggling to come up with alternative explanations. The first, is the Nightblood's abilities are not dependent upon the person wielding it. That means there is a set in stone definition as to what Nightblood considers to be "evil". The narrative poses it as though Nightblood has some sort of influence as to what can be considered evil, but his consistent use seems to stand in contrast to this. The second thing to note, is that there ARE some notable instances where someone considered "not evil" is around Nightblood. Vivenna is the prime example of this, as she grows nauseous when in close proximity to Nightblood, whereas others are driven to murderous desire. I'm not quite sure what distinction the command is making between Vivenna and others, who all seem like otherwise normal people. Thoughts?
Trusk'our he/him Posted November 29, 2024 Posted November 29, 2024 (edited) 1 hour ago, AnthonyC4 said: I was thinking about it, and the "destroy" part seems to be well translated, even if absorption isn't my go-to when I think of destroying things. But how does "Evil" turn into "Investiture"? My current two clips is that Nightblood's consumption of Investiture is merely a method of destroying. He obliterates what something was before, turning it into something new. In this case using it to amplify his own Command, to destroy more as it grows in power. This could also be compared to Hemalurgic spikes and their consumption of Investiture. Taking someone else's Investiture, destroying them in a fashion to repurpose their abilities. Ruin does have at least some ties to Nightblood (especially given the color of Nightblood's Investiture and Command), so the similarities between it and Hemalurgy may not be too far fetched, where Nightblood's abilities perhaps grew from a similar starting point as Hemalurgy itself. Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/360-legion-release-party/#e10902 Walin Does Nightblood contain any of Ruin's Investiture? Like, not atium, but... Brandon Sanderson Yes, technically; and I'm not wiggling around that, because technically, location in the Cosmere and who belongs to what gets really weird, right? Because Ruin's Investiture is everywhere--but I'm not talking that way. I'm talking the way you actually mean it. Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/472-jordancon-2021/#e14914 Questioner It seems to me like the Shards each have a color associated with them. Honor I think is blue, Odium is gold... My first question would be, what colors would be associated with Preservation and Ruin? Brandon Sanderson So, I have always associated white and black with Preservation and Ruin. Questioner Would that have changed for Harmony? Brandon Sanderson It will have changed for Harmony. But I won't say what it is. Edited November 29, 2024 by Trusk'our 1
AnthonyC4 Posted November 29, 2024 Author Posted November 29, 2024 35 minutes ago, Trusk'our said: My current two clips is that Nightblood's consumption of Investiture is merely a method of destroying. He obliterates what something was before, turning it into something new. In this case using it to amplify his own Command, to destroy more as it grows in power. This could also be compared to Hemalurgic spikes and their consumption of Investiture. Taking someone else's Investiture, destroying them in a fashion to repurpose their abilities. Ruin does have at least some ties to Nightblood (especially given the color of Nightblood's Investiture and Command), so the similarities between it and Hemalurgy may not be too far fetched, where Nightblood's abilities perhaps grew from a similar starting point as Hemalurgy itself. Reveal hidden contents https://wob.coppermind.net/events/360-legion-release-party/#e10902 Walin Does Nightblood contain any of Ruin's Investiture? Like, not atium, but... Brandon Sanderson Yes, technically; and I'm not wiggling around that, because technically, location in the Cosmere and who belongs to what gets really weird, right? Because Ruin's Investiture is everywhere--but I'm not talking that way. I'm talking the way you actually mean it. Reveal hidden contents https://wob.coppermind.net/events/472-jordancon-2021/#e14914 Questioner It seems to me like the Shards each have a color associated with them. Honor I think is blue, Odium is gold... My first question would be, what colors would be associated with Preservation and Ruin? Brandon Sanderson So, I have always associated white and black with Preservation and Ruin. Questioner Would that have changed for Harmony? Brandon Sanderson It will have changed for Harmony. But I won't say what it is. That follows from what I've seen yeah. But the step that I'm not sure about is why "Evil" became "Investiture". We know Awakening is somewhat programmatic, so the wording is very important. Evil must have some defined meaning within the context of Awakening, and somehow Evil correlates to Investiture. And my question is why?
Trusk'our he/him Posted November 29, 2024 Posted November 29, 2024 19 minutes ago, AnthonyC4 said: That follows from what I've seen yeah. But the step that I'm not sure about is why "Evil" became "Investiture". We know Awakening is somewhat programmatic, so the wording is very important. Evil must have some defined meaning within the context of Awakening, and somehow Evil correlates to Investiture. And my question is why? Hmm, consuming Investiture from living beings makes the most sense because Nightblood is directed by its weilder, but as for being hungry for random floating Investiture like Stormlight, it could just be for fuel. Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/250-warbreaker-annotations/#e7278 Brandon Sanderson Chapter Thirty-Five Vivenna Awakes, Bound by Vasher This chapter—with what happens in the latter part of it—is the most dangerous in the book. Dangerous to me as an author, I mean. I love good plot twists, but I worry about leaving them without proper foreshadowing. I've never done something as drastic as I have in this book, having a group of sympathetic characters turn out to be working for the wrong side. I hope it succeeds, but I know that if it doesn't, readers will be very mad. Nothing is sloppier than a book with unearned changes in character motivation. But we're not there quite yet. Before that we have the first real interaction between Vivenna and Vasher. He gives her what he likes to think of as the Nightblood test. One nice thing about having a sword that "cannot tempt the hearts of those who are pure" is that when someone like Vivenna touches it, she gets sick. I didn't want Nightblood to come across as a "one ring" knockoff. He doesn't turn people's hearts or corrupt them. However, in order to be able to do his job and fulfill his Command, he needs the ability to determine who is good and who is evil. This, of course, isn't an easy thing to determine. In fact, I don't think it's a black or white issue for most people. When Nightblood was created, the Breaths infused in him did their best to interpret their Command. What they decided was evil was someone who would try to take the sword and use it for evil purposes, selling it, manipulating and extorting others, that sort of thing. Someone who wouldn't want the sword for those reasons was determined to be good. If they touch the weapon, they feel sick. If others touch the weapon, their desire to kill and destroy with it is enhanced greatly. Nightblood himself, unfortunately, doesn't quite understand what good and evil are. (This is mentioned later in the text.) However, he knows that his master can determine who is good and who is evil—using the sword's power to make people sick, or through other means. So, he pretty much just lets whoever is holding him decide what is evil. And if the one holding the sword determines—deep within their heart—that they are evil themselves, then they will end up killing themselves with the sword. Vivenna passes the test, which surprises Vasher. He thought that she'd be the type who would use Nightblood to kill and destroy. (He doesn't have a high opinion of her, obviously. Of course, that's partially because he's let his temper dictate what he thinks.) Szeth was able to weild Nightblood safely with infused spheres on his person even before becoming a Skybreaker (or at least being Invested as one), so I suspect this feeding is just as a mechanism to power the sword's attack on living things (we even see in Warbreaker that when Vasher drops Nightblood the blade can no longer cause great damage to its environment. It requires a source of Investiture to power its greatest destructive feats, whether that be from ambient Investiture or its weilder's soul). Just some thoughts, at least. 1
Treamayne Posted November 29, 2024 Posted November 29, 2024 (edited) 10 hours ago, AnthonyC4 said: I was thinking about it, and the "destroy" part seems to be well translated, even if absorption isn't my go-to when I think of destroying things. But how does "Evil" turn into "Investiture"? I think there is a flawed premise in this conjecture. There are two ways that Nightblood consumes investiture: To fuel his ability to pierce all three realms, he feeds off of the investiture of his wielder. This has nothing to do with the Command - it is simply the method through which the Awakeneing is powering his ability to fulfill his Command. When Nightblood destroys something, he pierces it in all three realms and destroys all three aspects of the the being/object (Spiritweb, Cognitive Aspect, Physical Body), the vast majority of the investiture is released back into the system. Only a small portion of it is absorbed by Nightblood as a side effect of the method through which he Destroys. Even the investiture he consumes does not "leave the system." @Trusk'our has already provided the WoB on how Nightblood allows his weilder to decide what "Evil" is. Here's is the WoB that directly answers your question: Spoiler Quote Tim Nightblood's intent is to destroy evil. Since it consumes Investiture, does it view Investiture as evil? Brandon Sanderson No, it does not. Nightblood has trouble deciding what is evil. It is getting better, more and more, but it wouldn't view Investiture itself as evil. FanX 2021 (Sept. 17, 2021) Other WoBs: Spoiler Quote Questioner My question is not really a question, it's more of a theory. How Odium keeps the Fused around is more if he has them tied to his essence, so it's like he's essentially fishing them out of the Spiritual Realm and since their minds are left behind in the Cognitive Realm and their minds are technically damaged, because their spirits are separated and it just pulls them back. I'm 100% convinced Nightblood did kill the thunderclast, because Nightblood consumes all investiture, that's something I asked you back at Barnes and Noble a couple years ago, during Christmas and you said your soul is Investiture. So my thought is, that thunderclast isn't coming back any time soon. Brandon Sanderson You are correct on that one. Questioner When I saw that, my thought was, "Yep, It's dead." Other people were like, "I don't know, will it come back?" Nope. Brandon Sanderson I'll tell you this. They have not run into something like this before, and there will be ramifications of what happened there. Questioner That is fun to know. Brandon Sanderson If you are used to death having no consequence, and suddenly your friend vanishes forever... Questioner Yeah I know, I already thought of that. They're going to fight over Nightblood. Brandon Sanderson Mmm. Idaho Falls signing (July 21, 2018) Quote uchoo786 So just for clarification, once Nightblood consumes investiture, that investiture gets recycled? That's what I've always assumed. That it enters the cognitive/spiritual realm? Brandon Sanderson The investiture he consumes is not gone forever--it's not leaving the system, so to speak. General Reddit 2016 (Jan. 1, 2016) Quote Questioner (paraphrased) We see Nightblood consuming both Breaths and Stormlight. Earlier you've mentioned conversion between types of Investiture. Is Nightblood doing that? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Nightblood can feed off of any source of Investiture. If you're a Mistborn, burning a metal while wielding Nightblood would directly feed him. So you stay alive for as long as you have metal left. Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019) Quote asmodeus Do those consumed by Yelig-nar (like Aesudan, Amaram) appear briefly in Shadesmar after they die, but before they pass onto the beyond? Brandon Sanderson Yelig-nar consumes them entirely, like Nightblood. Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021) Quote Brandon Sanderson Anyway, a lot of important things happen here. Note that Nightblood doesn't remember being drawn. When he was created, the Breaths gave him sentience as planned. (That was a big part of the goal in making him—to prove the existence of Type Four BioChromatic entities.) However, once he is drawn, his Command takes force and he acts much more like a regular Awakened object—but one with very strange abilities and powers. During this time, his Breath is diverted to creating the powers, and his mind goes fuzzy. Warbreaker Annotations (July 25, 2011) Quote lucagreene18 If Szeth were to have drawn Nightblood immediately after he had consumed Rayse, would he still have drained Szeth's Stormlight? As it said he seemed like he had eaten as much as he could. Brandon Sanderson At that point, Nightblood had entered into essentially a food coma... Well, no, the food coma one came when he was drawing from the perpendicularity. I don't think he was in food coma mode at that point. I think that he could still have drawn more at that point, I'd have to go look at exactly what I wrote, if I'd put him into food coma mode or not. It is possible. This is one of the things I wanted to answer with the book. A lot of people have been theorizing, could Nightblood eat an entire Shard? And indeed, Nightblood could not eat an entire Shard. That is not within his capability. In fact, one of the reasons that he leaks Investiture is: he's too stuffed full of it. There is more Investiture in the sword Nightblood than it can actually hold, it's supersaturated. And it leaks Investiture (that it's done some weird things to). But it is constantly hungry for more and constantly leaks it, but it definitely can get full for a time, and it could not eat an entire Shard. I did see questions about that from people floating around, and it's something I'd been meaning to get to eventually. Nightblood is definitely relevant to things that are happening in the Cosmere, but it is not as simple as grabbing the sword, sticking it into a Shard, and defeating the Shard, unfortunately. Though, as you see in this book, there are reasons for a Shard to still be afraid of Nightblood. It didn't destroy Odium, but Rayse still really had a bad time. YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020) Warbreaker Ch 56: Quote He spun toward the charging Lifeless and—enraged—attacked. Each creature he struck with the blade immediately flashed and became smoke. A single scratch and the bodies dissolved like paper being consumed by an invisible fire, leaving behind only a large stain of blackness in the air. Vasher spun among them, striking with wrath, killing Lifeless after Lifeless. Black smoke churned around him, and his arm twisted with pain as veinlike tendrils climbed up the hilt and around his forearm—like black blood vessels that latched on to his skin, feeding off his Breath. Oathbringer Ch 117: Quote “Mother!” Wyndle said. “What is—” As the monster raised its fist to strike Lift, the spear of light hit the creature in the head and cut straight through. It divided the enormous thing in two, sending out an explosion of black smoke. The halves of the monster fell to the sides, crashing into the stone, then burned away, evaporating into blackness. Soldiers cursed and coughed, backing up as something resolved in the center of the tempest. A figure in the smoke, glowing white and holding a jet-black Shardblade that seemed to feed on the smoke, sucking it in, then letting it pour down beneath itself as a liquid blackness. Hope that helps Edited November 29, 2024 by Treamayne SPAG 2
alder24 Posted November 29, 2024 Posted November 29, 2024 8 hours ago, AnthonyC4 said: I was thinking about it, and the "destroy" part seems to be well translated, even if absorption isn't my go-to when I think of destroying things. But how does "Evil" turn into "Investiture"? This leads me to consider that one of the following might be true: Investiture is evil This would tie into a possible explanation as to why people thought the Shattering was necessary, as demonstrated by the following WoB: It would also seem to line up with the general "consequences matter" morality Brandon seems to champion in Stormlight, though it might be a bit of a stretch to take that to assume evil is a tangible real measurable thing. But this is the explanation that makes the translation the clearest and most direct. Adonalsium is evil Now this might seem similar to the previous point, but different in the sense that now evil is no longer a tangible physical thing that can be ascribed to investiture at large. Now, we assume that Adonalsium itself, whatever form it took, be it man, god, or force, was in large part an evil entity. And since all Investiture is Adonalsium, and Adonalsium is evil, then by extension all investiture is evil. But instead of the direct ascribement of evil to Investiture, it is only evil by association to Adonalsium. The fact that Endowment was involved in the creation of Nightblood, who would have had the context necessary to make such an assertion, makes this seem more plausible. Something else is evil Some important things to note here, because I'm struggling to come up with alternative explanations. The first, is the Nightblood's abilities are not dependent upon the person wielding it. That means there is a set in stone definition as to what Nightblood considers to be "evil". The narrative poses it as though Nightblood has some sort of influence as to what can be considered evil, but his consistent use seems to stand in contrast to this. The second thing to note, is that there ARE some notable instances where someone considered "not evil" is around Nightblood. Vivenna is the prime example of this, as she grows nauseous when in close proximity to Nightblood, whereas others are driven to murderous desire. I'm not quite sure what distinction the command is making between Vivenna and others, who all seem like otherwise normal people. Thoughts? Nightblood's ability to consume investiture is more related to the fact that he's a steel sword that tries to imitate Shardblades. A sword knows only one thing - how to cut. It doesn't know what evil is as this is something so alien to it that it can't comprehend it. A Shardblade also cuts but in all three realms - that's what Nightblood tries to imitate and he also cuts in all three realms. And Nightblood being out of steel makes him interact with investiture the way he does, because steel has a special property not just in Allomancy - if he were made out of a different metal, like bronze or iron, he would have a different effect. If he were a shield, he wouldn't be able to do what he's doing now, because a shield has a vastly different purpose than a sword - a shield doesn't destroy, it protects. Those facts combined, together with a twisted Command, made Nightblood who he is. Investiture isn't evil, he's just using it to power his Command. And so it happened in Cosmere that everything is made out of investiture, that matter, energy and investiture are the same thing, thus Nightblood can use everything to power himself. This is something he as an Awakened entity needs, even Vivenna's blade still needs something to power herself (she drains color out of her victims, which is a reflection of a change that happens in the Spirit Web). Nightblood is a bit like a Returned because they both need to feed on investiture to be alive. Investiture is just food to him. Cutting things in all three realms is how he destroys. The WoB provided by @Trusk'our did specify what Nightblood considers as evil: Spoiler Brandon Sanderson Chapter Thirty-Five Vivenna Awakes, Bound by Vasher This chapter—with what happens in the latter part of it—is the most dangerous in the book. Dangerous to me as an author, I mean. I love good plot twists, but I worry about leaving them without proper foreshadowing. I've never done something as drastic as I have in this book, having a group of sympathetic characters turn out to be working for the wrong side. I hope it succeeds, but I know that if it doesn't, readers will be very mad. Nothing is sloppier than a book with unearned changes in character motivation. But we're not there quite yet. Before that we have the first real interaction between Vivenna and Vasher. He gives her what he likes to think of as the Nightblood test. One nice thing about having a sword that "cannot tempt the hearts of those who are pure" is that when someone like Vivenna touches it, she gets sick. I didn't want Nightblood to come across as a "one ring" knockoff. He doesn't turn people's hearts or corrupt them. However, in order to be able to do his job and fulfill his Command, he needs the ability to determine who is good and who is evil. This, of course, isn't an easy thing to determine. In fact, I don't think it's a black or white issue for most people. When Nightblood was created, the Breaths infused in him did their best to interpret their Command. What they decided was evil was someone who would try to take the sword and use it for evil purposes, selling it, manipulating and extorting others, that sort of thing. Someone who wouldn't want the sword for those reasons was determined to be good. If they touch the weapon, they feel sick. If others touch the weapon, their desire to kill and destroy with it is enhanced greatly. Nightblood himself, unfortunately, doesn't quite understand what good and evil are. (This is mentioned later in the text.) However, he knows that his master can determine who is good and who is evil—using the sword's power to make people sick, or through other means. So, he pretty much just lets whoever is holding him decide what is evil. And if the one holding the sword determines—deep within their heart—that they are evil themselves, then they will end up killing themselves with the sword. Vivenna passes the test, which surprises Vasher. He thought that she'd be the type who would use Nightblood to kill and destroy. (He doesn't have a high opinion of her, obviously. Of course, that's partially because he's let his temper dictate what he thinks.) Warbreaker Annotations (Dec. 22, 2010) Other WoBs: Spoiler Questioner If Vasher and Shashara had Awakened a non-weapon in exactly the same way as Nightblood (say a shield), would the object exhibit the same properties as Nightblood? Brandon Sanderson So, if you said "destroy evil" to a shield... no, it wouldn't be exactly the same. The Command is the most important part of all of this, but the shape, how the weapon perceives itself, how you perceive it, is all gonna play into this. They're playing with some real dangerous stuff when they made Nightblood. And it didn't go as intended. San Diego Comic-Con@Home 2020 (July 23, 2020) Spoiler howtofall We know that the effects of various magic systems are changed by their interactions with metals (Scadrial’s three obviously, as well as fabrials on Roshar). So my question is: when a piece of metal is Awakened, does the type of metal change the nature of the Awakened object in any meaningful way? For example, If Nightblood had been made of iron or tin rather than steel... Brandon Sanderson It would most likely change what is happening with Nightblood to use different materials, and that includes different types of metal. YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021) Spoiler Questioner I was wondering, is Nightblood a Shardblade? Brandon Sanderson Nightblood is an attempt by someone who didn’t know how Shardblades were made to create a Shardblade using a different magic system. Shadows of Self San Francisco signing (Oct. 9, 2015) Spoiler JHTheHurricane Would the metal an Allomancer burns if he was charging Nightblood with Investiture affect the relative power of Nightblood, say if you are burning duralumin or atium Nightblood would be more powerful than if you were burning bronze or zinc? Brandon Sanderson Excellent question, actually! Nightblood, as I've written him now and as I intend to keep him, feeds of the investiture--but isn't really strengthened by it. Meaning, it doesn't matter to him what the food is, it's all just food to him. /r/fantasy AMA 2017 (Feb. 10, 2017) Spoiler Ilkhan2016 Breath and Stormlight are both forms of Investiture. AFAIK you can power any of the magic systems from any form of Investiture. Zahel is on Roshar, I believe, primarily due to how easy Investiture (Stormlight) is to come across. AFAIK the form of Investiture doesn't change anything about the abilities. For example, Szeth was sucked out of Stormlight when he drew Nightblood; and Azure used Stormlight to Awaken in Shadesmar. /u/mistborn is that right? Brandon Sanderson A lot of this depends on the Investiture and the magic in question. Azure was legit using Breaths, for example--ones she'd brought with her. But Szeth was able to feed Stormlight to Nightblood, much as Vasher uses Stormlight to keep himself alive. To Awaken with Stormlight, the easiest thing to do would be to first change Stormlight into Breaths--something that Azure doesn't know how to do. (Admittedly, Hoid doesn't either, so it's not like it's a simple thing to achieve.) You could also theoretically use some magical (or mechanical) means to power your Awakening with a different form of Investiture. Extesian This is very interesting. Is it possible then in the Cosmere for the 'intent' (spin or however described) of Investiture to be changed? And I mean within reasonable limits (not the powers of six shards or any of that). Can a Shard effectively grow in power in a place (e.g. toward an avatar) through another Shard's Investiture being changed (not just corrupted)? Or is it just making one type ('intent' - you should canonize a word for this :D) of Investiture mimic the properties of another? Brandon Sanderson Most of the ways of accomplishing what you're talking about would involve either 1) fooling/overwriting your spiritual makeup somehow. (This is what Hemalurgy does, for example.) 2) Refining the power somehow into a more pure form. But there are a lot of variables. The way magic from Nalthis works, for example, the system is just looking for any available Investiture to power itself--and so basically anything will do, regardless of the source. This includes consuming your own soul, in some cases... You'll see terminology coming along eventually that facilitates talking about all of this. I'm not yet decided on some of it. Celestial_Blu3 How many Breaths does [Azure] have by her final appearance in OB? Brandon Sanderson That's a RAFO, I'm afraid. General Reddit 2019 (April 25, 2019) Spoiler Travis Gafford End of [Words of Radiance], Szeth meets Nightblood. Nightblood normally makes people feel very sick as a test. He does not have this. And I'm curious if there's a reason for that other than you didn't want to end your book with Szeth puking in a corner. Brandon Sanderson What happens when you take Nightblood is based entirely on what your desire on how to use Nightblood is. If your intent does not align with Nightblood's created Intent, which is kind of a deep, Cosmere sort of thing. But, basically, if you want Nightblood because you can then destroy all of your enemies, you're not gonna match to that Intent. If your desire to use Nightblood is either: "I don't even want to use Nightblood," you're actually gonna be fine; or if your desire to Nightblood is matching what Nightblood's view is... And Szeth is, like, the perfect person, because Szeth only wants to do what he's told, and Nightblood kind of only wants to do what he's told. So there's, like, a perfect alignment. They're both messed up in the same way, and they both view the world in the same way, and it's hard to find a more perfect alignment than those two. And so, because of that, there was just no reaction. And that should be something that I wanted people to pick up on. Miscellaneous 2022 (Nov. 28, 2022) 1
Recommended Posts