Dostaglou Posted November 28, 2024 Posted November 28, 2024 I know this sounds crazy; hopefully just less crazy than the Heralds themselves. What makes me think this is three things: The perfect gemstone called Honor's Drop Reminds me of Atium, Ba Ado Mishram and the Unmade, and even Leras giving some of his power up to humans Odiums quote "No, we killed you. We killed you!" The "We" seems really strange. Hard to believe Rayse would share the spotlight with the Fused or even the unmade. The cause of the Recreance The motivation can't be as simple as "The Aharietiam was a lie". The basic idea is this: The Heralds were tired of the war and tortured so they abandoned the Oathpact. When they did so, they wounded Honor. Even while wounded the Oathpack still stood with Tal and Odium was trapped so he could not exploit this. The Heralds eventually wanted to escape the Oathpact entirely. They live in constant fear that Tal will give in or that one of them will be killed. So they decide, perhaps on the whispers of Odium, that the only way to do to this is to break their Bond to Honor; and thus capture or kill Honor. Conversely Honor wants force the Heralds to remember their oath. Remember why they fought/fight. Honor conspires with Ba Ado Mishram to give her power while Odium is trapped. He gives her the kind of power of bonds; the power to form connections with the Parsh. This starts the false desolation. Honor plays both sides During this time the Heralds experiment with trapping Honor's power and leads them to create the Honor's Drop. Odium is crucial for the insights and urgings. Eventually Melishi traps Mishram in a perfect gemstone and then traps her in the spiritual realm. But the power that was trapped was not Mishram's alone. It was in part honor. Between power needed to capture Odium, the broken oaths, the siphoning by the Heralds earlier, the trapping of Mishram was the straw the broke the camels back. Honor was killed; and the Heralds helped do it. It is the totality of this that broke the Radiants: Humans were the voidbringers The heralds destroyed their home and then abandoned the oathpact They caused the enslavement of a whole people Honor was the source of Mishram's power From there the Radiants decided to abandon their oaths. But since Honor had been so weakened and the power of connection so twisted with Mishram, this was the final act that killed him. 3
alder24 Posted November 28, 2024 Posted November 28, 2024 7 hours ago, Dostaglou said: The cause of the Recreance The motivation can't be as simple as "The Aharietiam was a lie". It wasn't, it was the fear that Radiants would destroy Roshar with Surgebinding, just like their ancestors did on Ashyn - and during the False Desolation they actually did destroy part of Roshar by imprisoning Misharam, which lobotomized the entire Singer race. OB ch 113: Quote But I do remember. It was not only the truth of humankind’s origin that caused the Recreance. It was the distinct, powerful fear that they would destroy this world, as men like them had destroyed the one before. The Radiants abandoned their vows for that reason, as will you. [...] In the past, Honor was able to guard against this, the Stormfather told him. He convinced the Radiants they were righteous, even if this land hadn’t originally been theirs. Who cares what your ancestors did, when the enemy is trying to kill you right now? But in the days leading to the Recreance, Honor was dying. When that generation of knights learned the truth, Honor did not support them. He raved, speaking of the Dawnshards, ancient weapons used to destroy the Tranquiline Halls. Honor … promised that Surgebinders would do the same to Roshar. “Odium claimed the same thing.” He can see the future, though only cloudily. Regardless, I … understand now as I never did before. The ancient Radiants didn’t abandon their oaths out of pettiness. They tried to protect the world. I blame them for their weakness, their broken oaths. But I also understand. You have cursed me, human, with this capacity 7 hours ago, Dostaglou said: The basic idea is this: The Heralds were tired of the war and tortured so they abandoned the Oathpact. When they did so, they wounded Honor. Aharietiam was not related to Honor's death: Spoiler Wetlander Was Odium able to Splinter Honor because the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact? Brandon Sanderson Good question. Um, their abandonment of the Oathpact is related... but mostly tangentially. If I was pinned down on that, I would say no. Wetlander Is there any of the Oathpact still functioning because of Taln's continued participation? Brandon Sanderson Yes, indeed. Steelheart Seattle signing (Oct. 14, 2013) 7 hours ago, Dostaglou said: The Heralds eventually wanted to escape the Oathpact entirely. They live in constant fear that Tal will give in or that one of them will be killed. So they decide, perhaps on the whispers of Odium, that the only way to do to this is to break their Bond to Honor; and thus capture or kill Honor. This did not break the remnants of the Oathpact, in fact Dalinar still saw it when he touched Nale. 7 hours ago, Dostaglou said: Conversely Honor wants force the Heralds to remember their oath. Remember why they fought/fight. Honor conspires with Ba Ado Mishram to give her power while Odium is trapped. He gives her the kind of power of bonds; the power to form connections with the Parsh. This starts the false desolation. Honor plays both sides This is an interesting idea and it would explain why Kalak said that Mishram was related to Honor's death in some way. 7 hours ago, Dostaglou said: During this time the Heralds experiment with trapping Honor's power and leads them to create the Honor's Drop. You can't trap Honor's full, infinite power in a gemstone, at most you can trap its Vessel, which isn't the power itself. Secondly, Radiants gave Honor's Drop to Elsecallers for safekeeping, as their duty was to look over every perfect gemstone - perfect gemstone's existed before the False Desolation, Honor's Drop is nothing new or special. OB ch 83 epigraphs: Quote "As the duly appointed keepers of the perfect gems, we of the Elsecallers have taken the burden of protecting the ruby nicknamed Honor's Drop. Let it be recorded." Spoiler Questioner Assuming you have a way to siphon out a Vessel from a Shard, how much hemalurgic metal would be required to contain that Vessel? Brandon Sanderson An astronomically large amount. Oh, the Vessel? Or contain a Shard? The Vessel, just a little dude... not that much. Basically, like a decent-sized gemstone would hold an Unmade, and that's more Investiture than we're talking about. Questioner Can hemalurgic metal hold around the same amount of an Invested creature as a pure gemstone? Brandon Sanderson No, gemstones can do more. Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023) 7 hours ago, Dostaglou said: Eventually Melishi traps Mishram in a perfect gemstone and then traps her in the spiritual realm. But the power that was trapped was not Mishram's alone. It was in part honor. Between power needed to capture Odium, the broken oaths, the siphoning by the Heralds earlier, the trapping of Mishram was the straw the broke the camels back. Honor was killed; and the Heralds helped do it. But Honor was killed after the imprisonment of Mishram, he lived long enough to have witnessed and recorded the Recreance in visions even though he was already dying - he wasn't dead yet. Spoiler Questioner Dalinar's visions are the memories of Honor, correct? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Yes, they are things specifically created by Honor... Questioner Does that mean that the Recreance happened before Honor's death... since Dalinar sees it? Brandon Sanderson Yes. But Honor's death, like Preservation's death, is a protracted event. Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017) 3
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