How to empty the oceans on Lumar

[CPebble]

I was hit by a stray thought while reading. Wondering if B-Money has commented on this, or if my understanding is flawed.

 

My theory is that Nightblood could have potentially world-ending consequences, if they were thrown into the Lumar spore seas. It is unlikely that it would drain all the seas immediately. Brandon has mentioned the investiture food-coma before, however Nightblood isn't going anywhere, and we know that they'll be hungry again at some point.

Furthermore, it seems that no Lumarians have the technology to dive down and get it up once it sunk to the bottom(disregarding the known world hoppers)

The only thing that seems to speak against this is whether Nightblood can access the investiture. We know it doesn't have to be kinetic, but potential investiture is still kind of vague

 

PS: Obviously not all of the seas would be gone

Edited November 26, 2024 by CPebble

[alder24]

15 hours ago, CPebble said:

I was hit by a stray thought while reading. Wondering if B-Money has commented on this, or if my understanding is flawed.

 

My theory is that Nightblood could have potentially world-ending consequences, if they were thrown into the Lumar spore seas. It is unlikely that it would drain all the seas immediately. Brandon has mentioned the investiture food-coma before, however Nightblood isn't going anywhere, and we know that they'll be hungry again at some point.

Furthermore, it seems that no Lumarians have the technology to dive down and get it up once it sunk to the bottom(disregarding the known world hoppers)

The only thing that seems to speak against this is whether Nightblood can access the investiture. We know it doesn't have to be kinetic, but potential investiture is still kind of vague

 

PS: Obviously not all of the seas would be gone

Hello, welcome to the Shard. If you're interested, here are some useful tips that can help you navigate the forum: Sharder FAQ. Also, because this topic involves Nightblood, which is from books other than Tress, you should have posted it in the Cosmere Discussion section, but no worry, I'll ask mods to move it there for you.

 

To figure out if this will even work you would have to "guesstimate" the rate at which Nightblood consumes investiture over a long period of time when he's in the food coma state (which is very low) and the rate at which Lumarian Aethers produce spores which fill the ocean, which seems to be constant for every Aether. My guess is that because Nightblood would very quickly fall into the food coma state, he wouldn't be able to consume more than the moons produce, thus the oceans would be almost unaffected. They ain't going anywhere.

Nightblood is powerful, very powerful, but he's not on the planet-eating level, not even on the ocean-eating one. He would get full very, very, very quickly if you get him so much investiture to eat. But Nightblood eats EVERYTHING, not just every type of investiture, but all the matter that touches him and whatever else there is he can access.

Cosmere and RoW Spoiler WoBs:

Spoiler

lucagreene18

If Szeth were to have drawn Nightblood immediately after he had consumed Rayse, would he still have drained Szeth's Stormlight? As it said he seemed like he had eaten as much as he could.

Brandon Sanderson

At that point, Nightblood had entered into essentially a food coma... Well, no, the food coma one came when he was drawing from the perpendicularity. I don't think he was in food coma mode at that point. I think that he could still have drawn more at that point, I'd have to go look at exactly what I wrote, if I'd put him into food coma mode or not. It is possible.

This is one of the things I wanted to answer with the book. A lot of people have been theorizing, could Nightblood eat an entire Shard? And indeed, Nightblood could not eat an entire Shard. That is not within his capability. In fact, one of the reasons that he leaks Investiture is: he's too stuffed full of it. There is more Investiture in the sword Nightblood than it can actually hold, it's supersaturated. And it leaks Investiture (that it's done some weird things to). But it is constantly hungry for more and constantly leaks it, but it definitely can get full for a time, and it could not eat an entire Shard.

I did see questions about that from people floating around, and it's something I'd been meaning to get to eventually. Nightblood is definitely relevant to things that are happening in the Cosmere, but it is not as simple as grabbing the sword, sticking it into a Shard, and defeating the Shard, unfortunately. Though, as you see in this book, there are reasons for a Shard to still be afraid of Nightblood. It didn't destroy Odium, but Rayse still really had a bad time.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Nightblood has more Investiture than any other being, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Not every other being, but definitely one of the most highly Invested individuals that we have seen.

Questioner

So Nightblood, he was used to wound Odium. Is Odium now weaker than he was before?

Brandon Sanderson

Not in a relevant way. Technically, yes. Not in a relevant way. The amount taken, compared to how much there is, is pretty small. And a whole bunch of what happened there was focused on the Vessel, not on Odium itself.

Questioner

Could Nightblood consume Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

Nightblood would get full before consuming even the smallest fraction amount of Odium. As you saw, Nightblood kind of got full in that instance. Actually, it was with the perpendicularity, it would be similar to that. So for those who are wondering, no, you can't stab Nightblood into the planet and absorb the planet. Nightblood is really dangerous, as we've seen, but we're not talking "absorb planets" dangerous.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

 

Spoiler

Max Garber

What would happen if you threw Nightblood into the Dor? Could it consume Investiture fast enough to enable you to travel through the Dor?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, I see what you’re trying to do, make a pocket where you can go through. Here’s the thing: Nightblood would get full pretty quick in the Dor, like you saw with Nightblood hitting a perpendicularity in Rhythm of War. So I’m not 100% convinced this could get you through the Dor. But it’s a workable theory that you could try, and you might be able to tweak it to the point that you could make it work. You’re gonna have to deal with the fact that Nightblood fills up, when there’s that much Investiture, pretty quickly.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 6 (Dec. 19, 2023)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Is Nightblood more or less susceptible to damage and/or death when he's satiated on Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Satiated, he's much less dangerous. More susceptible, I would say by technicality, yes. When he's full, it's gonna be harder for him to pull in things, so all sorts of things could happen. So yes. But it's not that he's weaker, it's not like the metal is easier to break or bend, it's more that he's not as likely to suck your soul.

Questioner

So he behaves more like a regular sword.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, a little bit more. Still, for human levels of Investiture, still really dangerous to touch him. He's satiated, but if he's at 100%, and the amount of you he could eat represents 0.001%, the moment a little of that wears off, you're gone. So still would not be picking him up in most cases, just out of that, "Oh! He got a little hungry again!" But in terms of larger, grand scale Shard stuff, much safer to handle.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

 

[CPebble]

Thank you, and yes I didn't think about Nightblood but you're right.

Back to the topic: You're right. Nightblood isn't the planet killer, this is kind of why I got caught up in this. This wouldn't be a big bang catastrophe, but a slow accidental destruction. They might even complain that this isn't "destroying evil" but a mechanical oddity.

The adding of spores is also a slow process, but of course spread over the planet. One thing that sticks out is

Quote

The prime aethers propagate themselves by creating their spores and sending them down to Lumar. Although the moons do not have water, the prime aethers still need it to survive

So the rate of aether spore production would also decrease as a their spores were consumed without being allowed to sprout and propagate.

Whether that's still faster than Nightbloods investiture drain is a good question. My final counter is: it took killing a vessel to get to this level of fullness. At the very least one aether would wither as a result

[Treamayne]

On 11/26/2024 at 4:07 PM, CPebble said:

Nightblood could have potentially world-ending consequences, if they were thrown into the Lumar spore seas.

This is not likely at all. There are two actions involved with Nightblood.

• When wielded, he drains Investiture from the Bonded Wielder on an increasing scale, until dropped or sheathed
• When Nightblood Pierces anything (person, object, Manifestation of Investiture, etc.) it destroys on all three realms, absorbing some of the investiture and the remainder turns to smoke.

In your scenario he is not being wielded at all, nor is he piercing or cutting anything (except a few unlucky spores on his way to the bottom of that particulat spore ocean) so he would act like he does in Warbreaker Ch 56:

Spoiler

Vasher screamed, charging toward the side of the room. He slammed Nightblood through a wall. The stone dissolved just as easily as flesh had, evaporating away before him. He burst through the dissipating black smoke, entering the next room. He didn’t bother with a stairwell. He simply jumped onto a table and rammed Nightblood into the ceiling.

A circle ten feet wide vanished. Dark, mistlike smoke fell around him like streaks of paint. He Awakened his rope again then tossed it up, using it to pull himself up onto the next floor. A moment later, he did it again, climbing onto the third floor.

He spun, slashing through walls, bellowing as he ran back toward Denth. The pain in his arm was incredible, and his Breath was draining away at an alarming rate. Once it was gone, Nightblood would kill him.

Everything was growing fuzzy. He slashed through a final wall, finding the room where he had been tortured.

It was empty.

He cried out, arm shaking. Destroy…evil…Nightblood said in his mind, all lightness gone from the tone, all familiarity. It boomed like a command. An awful, inhuman thing. The longer Vasher held the sword, the faster it drained his Breath.

Gasping, he threw the sword aside and fell to his knees. It skidded, tearing a rip in the floor that puffed away into smoke, but hit a wall with a pling and fell still. Smoke rose from the blade.

Vasher knelt, arm twitching. The black veins on his skin slowly evaporated.

Piercing the wall, note that Nigthblood did not DESTROY either the building or the entire wall - just a section of it (likely based on Vasher's Intent). When Vasher threw Nightblood away, Nightblood did not DESTROY the entire floor either. In fact, without a guiding intent, he did not even put a hole in the floor - just a small "rip" in the floor where the blade cut the stone.

While I cannot find a direct WoB stating that the blade must pierce or cut to DESTROY someone or something - I also cannot find any examples where the side or edge of the blade destroys anything simply by resting against it, rather than actually piercing or cutting the object.

Hope that helps

Edited November 28, 2024 by Treamayne
SPAG

[alder24]

5 hours ago, CPebble said:

Thank you, and yes I didn't think about Nightblood but you're right.

Back to the topic: You're right. Nightblood isn't the planet killer, this is kind of why I got caught up in this. This wouldn't be a big bang catastrophe, but a slow accidental destruction. They might even complain that this isn't "destroying evil" but a mechanical oddity.

The adding of spores is also a slow process, but of course spread over the planet. One thing that sticks out is

So the rate of aether spore production would also decrease as a their spores were consumed without being allowed to sprout and propagate.

Whether that's still faster than Nightbloods investiture drain is a good question. My final counter is: it took killing a vessel to get to this level of fullness. At the very least one aether would wither as a result

The Vessel itself is actually very little investiture compared to the whole Shard - it's less than what an Unmade had. Aethers by comparison seem to be more invested than that - they themselves claim to be collectively equal to Adonalsium and Shards. Moreover, we've seen Nightblood fall into the food coma in OB during the end battle, after Dalinar opened his perpendicularity, Nightblood fed on light which satisfied his hunger. Nightblood is already full, he can't hold anything more, just a bit of investiture at most. What you want him to hold is way too much than he's capable of. He would quickly fall into the coma after being dropped into the spore ocean and then he just won't consume that much at all. Aethers produce enough spores to make them visibly fall from the sky from all across the sea, this may not be a huge amount compared to the entire planet, but this would be too much for Nightblood. Add to this that most of the spores never consume water to give it to their Aethers in the first place, they just decompose instead and Aethers probably won't even feel Nightblood on Lumar at all.

However, let's assume that you're right and Nightblood will be able to theoretically consume the entirety of the spore of oceans. Then I think that he still won't be able to do this but from a different reason. Spores aren't water, they don't flow like water, the only way they act like this on Lumar is because of the seethe, the air rising from the bottom of the ocean which fluidizes the ocean of spores. The degradation of spores deep down is what causes the seethe in the first place. If you drop Nightblood at the bottom of the ocean and it will start consuming spores around it, it would create a dead zone where no seethe will be created and you will end up with spores ceasing to act like a fluid in this area. You would basically create a hole made out of solid spores in one, tiny part of the Lumarian oceans and that's it, the rest of the planet's spores would be unaffected. It will have weird consequences for the local region, but that's it.  

That's what I think would happen. Of course we don't know for sure, it's just a guess, but I think it's based on enough facts to make me believe that Nightblood won't consume the spore oceans, just like he can't consume the Dor or the planet. That's just way too much for something that is already full and overstuffed with investiture.

Spoiler

Questioner

Assuming you have a way to siphon out a Vessel from a Shard, how much hemalurgic metal would be required to contain that Vessel?

Brandon Sanderson

An astronomically large amount. Oh, the Vessel? Or contain a Shard? The Vessel, just a little dude... not that much. Basically, like a decent-sized gemstone would hold an Unmade, and that's more Investiture than we're talking about.

Questioner

Can hemalurgic metal hold around the same amount of an Invested creature as a pure gemstone?

Brandon Sanderson

No, gemstones can do more.

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

 

Spoiler

Bumtown1

Is Adonalsium a unique being or are—were—there others?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO! The aethers would say that there were lots. That there's like a bunch of aethers and Adonalsium. That they were co-equals. The aethers would say there were lots of them.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Obviously the Shards are the top dogs in terms of power and stuff, but Hoid seems to be his own level of dangerous. Are there any other characters as sort of rivals to his ambition or power?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on how you want to express it. Some of the dragons from Yolen are as old and are very crafty. You could argue that the aethers, the actual core aethers, are as ancient and potentially powerful. I wouldn't put them by raw power at Shard level, but they would claim that they are. Depends on what you would think there. There are some other individuals of a similar, not as dangerous as Hoid, but on a similar level. Been around for thousands of years, investigated a lot of the magics, and these sorts of things.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

 

Spoiler

Zabeesh

If the moons are constantly pouring out spores, how do the oceans not fill up? Do they degrade eventually, or is there another method?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, they degrade eventually. I'll be perfectly frank with you: my science on this, I have not gone to all of my normal science routes. The only one of the Secret Projects that we did a lot of the scientific work on is Four, because of how tied into the rest of the Cosmere it is. I have some sort of plausible wiggle room on Book One, because Hoid is telling the story, and he can get some things wrong.

Where I am right now is: the seethe is partially involved in the way that the spores degrade. And that's part of what causes it; you've got this decomposition of a fantastical sort happening deep down, and that that is causing the seethe. But I have not run the science on this.

All of my books straddle on this continuum between fully scientific and fully fantastical. And I tend to sit over on this side [scientific], where Stormlight, I'm gonna work out all of these things. But I write fantasy, and once in a while I want to stray into the whimsical. And I purposefully did it on Tress; I'm gonna push the boundaries of what I can do and still have it be reasonable that it could exist with fantastical resources, and go kind of as far whimsical as I feel comfortable doing.

That isn't to say that you should consider this non-canon; it is absolutely canon. But what it means is, I didn't start with "what's the science of this?" I started with "what is the really interesting story I want to tell, and let's tell the story there." And if it comes down that the science just can't work; well, the answer is: "A wizard did it." I have enough access to fantastical explanations for the things that happen that I can make this work." But it is me pushing the boundaries of that.

So, know that I've got general impressions. Such as: spores are degrading. The way that they're degrading is actually causing the seethe. Much in a kind of an accelerated version of how methane comes up through decomposition, and that's what we're doing. But the water cycle is really tricky; I have some instincts on how that works, but I'm not even gonna talk about them, because I don't wanna canonize that, 'cause the water cycle's a really tricky thing on this planet, in particular.

Tress Spoiler Stream (March 31, 2023)