Spiritweb Resistance

[Trusk'our he/him]

The Spiritweb is a fickle thing, constantly changing and evolving as Shai says in TES. It does resist external influence though, seen as Soulstams can be rejected if they are too different from the actual Spiritweb. 

We also see similar things with the congnitive aspect of a person, where blunt Emotional Allomancy can induce an opposite reaction in a target, and wiping too many memories can cause the whole process to collapse. 

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/189-rfantasy-ama-2011/#e9004

WinespringBrother

Do soothing and rioting work on a telepathic or physiological level (or both)?

Brandon Sanderson

Primarily telepathic, though the body does respond physiologically. After the Soother is gone, the emotion remains for a time, so long as it was a natural emotion. Strong soothing/riotings against a person's nature can wear off quickly, and the body react (sometimes) with a strong opposite emotion in response. A very good Soother/Rioter can inspire emotions that begin telepathic only, but then have a response in the body, so the emotion gets more cemented.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/524-brandons-bookclub-yumi/#e16338

Jackson Dickert

We learn [Yumi]'s repeated this day for 1700 years, and her memory is patched over by the father machine. If memory and Investiture are so closely tied together, is the father machine also taking her Investiture? How does that work, because she's such a highly Invested individual, it seems like if it could take any Investiture from her, it would take all of it, like the nightmares did.

Brandon Sanderson

When I play with this, with tweaking memory and things like that, my go-to in the cosmere, in the three cases where you've seen it happen, is that those excising memories have to be really, really careful, or the body will reject what you're doing. So, all three times you've seen it happen, it's been one little sliver of memory is getting changed. The father machine might even just be overwriting it each day, basically blanking that Investiture, but not stealing any of it. Vasher does pull a little bit out when he takes the memory, and the same thing happens with Wit when it happened to him. But I think the father machine's doing it in a slightly different way, and it has to be really careful, or it'll be too obvious, and the whole illusion, the facade, will collapse.

In any case, I think the Spiritweb of a person resists strong change, but smaller, more congruent changes seem to be acceptable as Soulstamps show. 

I think that Hemalurgy might contend with a similar issue, where the spike has to overpower the Spiritweb's rejection of foreign material. This contest usually results in a greater weakening of the Spiritweb as a whole, contributing to the Flaw and causing unnecessary warping in the recipient (also causing greater exhaustion like in Yumi). I don't think this is the only factor, but certainly an issue. 

However, if you were to add a small spike with a relatively small amount of Investiture to the recipient, making only a small, plausible change like with Forgery, I wonder if some of the Hemalurgic weaknesses could be mitigated. Though a hole in the Spiritweb would still be present (as Pathian earrings show us to be the case), the damage to the body and psyche may be significantly reduced due to the lessened conflict. 

What's more, because the Spiritweb is fighting back less, perhaps you could add more spikes over time? Yumi shows us that a body resisting a foreign Spiritweb will reduce its rejection over time, so perhaps swapping the spikes for slightly more Invested ones over time (or using something like Raysium to add more Investiture to current spikes) would give the Spiritweb time to acclimate to the added Investiture, making the process easier to handle. 

Additionally, while thinking on this topic, I wondered whether Spiritweb resistance is relevant to more than just Hemalurgy. 

What if, perhaps, a significant amount of Feruchemical compression loss is due to the Spiritweb fighting unnatural changes to its structure? The more you tap, the less efficient you become as your Spiritweb tries to snap back to its natural state and you must tap more to compensate (there's also the fact that some Investiture must be siphoned off to protect the Feruchemist as well, but I don't think that's as big a contributing factor).

Thoughts to add on to or contradict these ideas?

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

I remember Shai once saying that when you use a Soulstamp on yourself for long enough, your soul will eventually stop rejecting the changes of the Soulstamp and you won't need to re-stamp yourself every 24 hours. So what you're saying here has some pretty solid basis.

5 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

However, if you were to add a small spike with a relatively small amount of Investiture to the recipient, making only a small, plausible change like with Forgery, I wonder if some of the Hemalurgic weaknesses could be mitigated. Though a hole in the Spiritweb would still be present (as Pathian earrings show us to be the case), the damage to the body and psyche may be significantly reduced due to the lessened conflict. 

Koloss have shown this through the reuse of Spikes, as they reused them the Spikes decayed little by little, which gave later Koloss more humanity.

So maybe if you took a regular Iron Spike, then split it into four smaller spikes, you could make someone into a very buff guy instead of a hulking monstrosity. 

5 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

What if, perhaps, a significant amount of Feruchemical compression loss is due to the Spiritweb fighting unnatural changes to its structure? The more you tap, the less efficient you become as your Spiritweb tries to snap back to its natural state and you must tap more to compensate (there's also the fact that some Investiture must be siphoned off to protect the Feruchemist as well, but I don't think that's as big a contributing factor).

Now this is interesting to ponder. It would even help explain what Feruchemical Savants do. Being a Savant could help a Feruchemist be more efficient in tapping higher multipliers. Such as with Miles, besides his Compounding, he probably was able to get more out a Goldmind than another Bloodmaker could.

And with the advent of Unsealed Metalminds, we'll hopefully see this concept more explored in Era 3.

[Treamayne]

10 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

your soul will eventually stop rejecting the changes of the Soulstamp and you won't need to re-stamp yourself every 24 hours.

That is not what Shai said in TES (Day 30):

Spoiler

Gaotona hesitated, then nodded.

“The human soul is different from that of an object,” Shai continued. “A person is constantly growing, changing, shifting. That makes a soulstamp used on a person wear out in a way that doesn’t happen with objects. Even in the best of cases, a soulstamp used on a person lasts only a day. My Essence Marks are an example. After about twenty-six hours, they fade away.”

“So … the emperor?”

“If I do my job well,” Shai said, “he will need to be stamped each morning, much as the Bloodsealer stamps my door. I will fashion into the seal, however, the capacity for him to remember, grow, and learn—he won’t revert back to the same state each morning, and will be able to build upon the foundation I give him. However, much as a human body wears down and needs sleep, a soulstamp on one of us must be reset. Fortunately, anyone can do the stamping—Ashravan himself should be able to—once the stamp itself is prepared correctly.”

 

12 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

they reused them the Spikes decayed little by little, which gave later Koloss more humanity.

Technically, it didn't give them more humanity - the decayed spikes simply failed to strip all of their humanity. Result is similar, but the Realmatics are different. I only mention this one in case the differences are important for the discussion. But keep in mind that a spike split into four (done correctly) will have the same result as just a single Iron spike on its own - the charge is the same (what came from the "donor") you are just making smaller pieces and grafting multiple times. WoB:

Spoiler

Oversleep

If a spike was covered in blood - stopping the Hemalurgic decay - and then split into smaller spikes, would there be power loss or not?

Let's say the splitting took place in a bathtub full of blood, so that the spikes would be covered in blood at all times.

Brandon Sanderson

The split should work.

Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 21, 2016)

Hope that helps

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

That is not what Shai said in TES (Day 30):

She says something rather interesting on Day 58:

Spoiler

Shai hesitated. "That said, I've never done this exact thing before, no one has. There is a chance... and I'd say a fair one... taht over time, the Empero's brain will absorb the information. Like... like if you traced the exact same image on a stack of papers for a year, at the end the layers below will contain the image as well. Perhaps after a few years of being stamped, he won't need the treatment any longer."

Granted it was due to a very specific circumstance, making a new soul for a dead body, and it's only a maybe. But Shai is the greatest Forger, that we know of, in the Cosmere. If anyone has the best chance of being right on this, it's her. So it is very theoretically possible for a person to be Soulstamped so often that they no longer need the Soulstamp to keep the effects. Maybe it'd be akin to Savantism?

[Treamayne]

8 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

She says something rather interesting on Day 58:

  Hide contents

Shai hesitated. "That said, I've never done this exact thing before, no one has. There is a chance... and I'd say a fair one... taht over time, the Empero's brain will absorb the information. Like... like if you traced the exact same image on a stack of papers for a year, at the end the layers below will contain the image as well. Perhaps after a few years of being stamped, he won't need the treatment any longer."

Granted it was due to a very specific circumstance, making a new soul for a dead body, and it's only a maybe. But Shai is the greatest Forger, that we know of, in the Cosmere. If anyone has the best chance of being right on this, it's her. So it is very theoretically possible for a person to be Soulstamped so often that they no longer need the Soulstamp to keep the effects. Maybe it'd be akin to Savantism?

Right, but that is because this specific stamp is nearly a version of Resealing. The Ashravan stamp is restoring what-was-lost, not changing what was into what-could-have-been. It called back to her theorizing on Day 30 as well:

Spoiler

The seal didn’t puff away immediately, though. Shai released a held breath. That was a good sign.

She wondered … if she were to try something like this on the emperor, would his soul fight against the invasion? Or instead, would it accept the stamp, wishing to have righted what had gone wrong? Much as that window had wanted to be restored to its former beauty. She didn’t know.

Gaotona opened his eyes. “Did it … work?”

“It took, for now,” Shai said.

Repeated stamping could be related to Savantism, based on currently nkown mechanics. Savantism is a warping of the spiritweb though excessive, consistent use of investiture. Soulstamps warp the soul in their normal function, but the amount of investiture is much lower (Spook was Flaring Tin all-day, every day for months before his effects began to manifest). Possibly a related mechanic (possibly also dependent on the amount/degree of changes).

[therunner he/him]

21 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

What if, perhaps, a significant amount of Feruchemical compression loss is due to the Spiritweb fighting unnatural changes to its structure? The more you tap, the less efficient you become as your Spiritweb tries to snap back to its natural state and you must tap more to compensate (there's also the fact that some Investiture must be siphoned off to protect the Feruchemist as well, but I don't think that's as big a contributing factor).

I have held this exact position since I joined these forums, so it's nice to have someone else arrive at the same conclusion.

It is even supported by WoB on why Rashek had to tap exponentially increasing amounts of Youthfulness the older he got. Spiritweb 'knows' what you are supposed to be, so any change requires more and more Investiture.

[Through The Living Grub He/Him]

3 hours ago, therunner said:

It is even supported by WoB on why Rashek had to tap exponentially increasing amounts of Youthfulness the older he got. Spiritweb 'knows' what you are supposed to be, so any change requires more and more Investiture.

Might also be why Wayne has to tap smaller amounts of healing when he is running low, I was actually confused about that.

[Trusk'our he/him]

3 hours ago, therunner said:

I have held this exact position since I joined these forums, so it's nice to have someone else arrive at the same conclusion.

It is even supported by WoB on why Rashek had to tap exponentially increasing amounts of Youthfulness the older he got. Spiritweb 'knows' what you are supposed to be, so any change requires more and more Investiture.

Ah, nice!

And true, the WoB does say the more Rashek aged the more youth he'd need to tap. I had assumed this just referred to standard Feruchemical compression loss, though now I see how this fits the theory so well.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/188-general-reddit-2015/#e3923

Doom-Slayer

So how do the exact mechanics of Feruchemy in relation to Compounding work?

This confusion is primarily around how [the Lord Ruler] gets his near infinite age.

Okay. So first off, I understand the concept of how they work. Feruchemy is net zero, Allomancy is net positive, combine them and you end with a net positive Feruchemy ability.

So how Feruchemy normally works... you take say weight, store half your normal weight and then you can access it whenever you want. So you (originally X weight) are taking A weight, storing it, and then you are at (X-A) weight, with access to A. So we have a metalmind that store magnitude with the efficiency of how its received based on how quickly or slowly it is drawn upon.

All the metalminds except atium seem to act this way. Atium seems to work as storing magnitude/time rather than just magnitude. The way I understand it is that say a 30 year old person becomes 50 years old for 1 day, this would give access to 20 years difference for a 1 day period.

The Lord Ruler then exploits this by gaining access to say 20 years difference over 10 days (magnification by Compounding) which he then slowly feeds into himself to lower his age.

Why this difference? I'm assuming its to maintain a neutral "body age" because with just magnitude a person could permanently make themselves younger by Compounding.

With just magnitude of "20 years of youth" being stored, if the Lord Ruler magnified it, he could turn it into "200 years of youth" and then he would never need the constant stream off youth (and wouldn't have died without the bracelets)

Hope this makes sense.

Brandon Sanderson

All right, so there are a few things you have to understand about cosmere magics to grok all of this.

First, is that magics can be hacked together. You'll see more of this in the future of the cosmere, but an early one is the hack here--where you're essentially powering Feruchemy with Allomancy. (A little more complex than that, but it seems like you get the idea.)

The piece you're missing is the nature of a person's Spiritual aspect. This is similar to a Platonic idea--the idea that there's a perfect version of everyone somewhere. It's a mix of their connections to places, people, and times with raw Investiture. The soul, you might say.

(Note that over time, a person's perception of themselves shapes their Cognitive aspect as well, and the Cognitive aspect can interfere with the Spiritual aspect trying to make the Physical aspect repair itself.) Healing in the cosmere often works by aligning your Physical self with your Spiritual self--making the Physical regrow. More powerful forms of Investiture can repair the soul as well.

However, your age is part of your Connection to places, people, and times. Your soul "knows" things, like where you were born, what Investiture you are aligned with, and--yes--how old you are. When you're healing yourself, you're restoring yourself to a perfect state--when you're done, everything is good. When you're changing your age, however, you are transforming yourself to something unnatural. Against what your soul understands to be true.

So the Spiritual aspect will push for a restoration to the way you should be. With this Compounding hack, you're not changing connection; it's a purely Physical Realm change.

This dichotomy cannot remain for long. And the greater the disparity, the more pressure the spirit will exert. Ten or twenty years won't matter much. A thousand will matter a lot. So the only way to use Compounding to change your age is to store up all this extra youth in a metalmind, then be constantly tapping it to counteract the soul's attempt to restore you to how you should be.

Yes, all of this means there are FAR more efficient means of counteracting aging than the one used by the Lord Ruler. It's a hack, and not meant to be terribly efficient. Eventually, he wouldn't have been able to maintain himself this way at all. Changing Connection (or even involving ones Cognitive Aspect a little more) would have been far more efficient, though actively more difficult.

Though this is the point where I ping [Peter Ahlstrom] and get him to double-check all this. Once in a while, my fingers still type the wrong term in places. (See silvereye vs tineye.)

One other thing in here I find interesting, it says that this change is purely physical, no Connection (i.e. spiritual) shenanigans going on.

So, maybe other physical attributes like strength draw from the Spiritweb initially, but only affect the physical when tapping?

28 minutes ago, Xiahida said:

Might also be why Wayne has to tap smaller amounts of healing when he is running low, I was actually confused about that.

Indeed, the more quickly you tap, the less efficient you are with your stores.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/243-hero-of-ages-qa-time-wasters-guide/#e6126

Sporkify

This is more towards the whole physics stuff, but is Feruchemy really balanced? If it gives diminishing returns, wouldn't this end up as a net loss of power?

Brandon Sanderson

It doesn't diminish. Or, well, it does—but only if you compound it. You get 1 for 1 back, but compounding the power requires an expenditure of the power itself. For instance, if you are weak for one hour, you can gain the lost strength for one hour. But that's not really that much strength. After all, you probably weren't as weak as zero people during that time. So if you want to be as strong as two men, you couldn't do it for a full hour. You'd have to spend some energy to compound, then spend the compounded energy itself.

In more mathematical terms, let's say you spend one hour at 50% strength. You could then spend one hour at 150% strength, or perhaps 25 min at 200% strength, or maybe 10min at 250% strength. Each increment is harder, and therefore 'strains' you more and burns your energy more quickly. And since most Feruchemists don't store at 50% strength, but instead at something like 80% strength (it feels like much more when they do it, but you can't really push the body to that much forced weakness without risking death) you can burn through a few day's strength in a very short time if you aren't careful.

Footnote: This question was asked when fueling Feruchemy with Allomancy had only been seen in Rashek. As such, the term compounding is used purely to reference tapping at a higher rate than can be stored.