Trusk'our he/him Posted November 13, 2024 Posted November 13, 2024 (edited) The Heightenings have been kind of annoying to me, as it seems like they should be more prevalent, given that so many people are Invested. There's definitely an element of there simply not being the same level of Investiture present in magic systems like Allomancy and Surgebinding as in Awakening (at least not in the form of Innate Investiture), but TLR was an extremely powerful Allomancer who gained his powers directly from the Well of Ascension. Seems like some Heightening effects would have been present. Or, what about Bondsmiths? Sure, most of the actual Investiture is probably tied to their vast Spren, but being Connected to them is basically hot wiring their souls together, making them act more as one, which makes that point rather moot. As such, I strongly suspect there must be something more than just possessing large portions of Investiture to obtain Heightenings. We know that Investiture responds to the thoughts and intents of thinking beings (as per Design's explanation in Yumi). I think that there is a subconscious level of Intent that your physical, cognitive, and spiritual aspects all impose on general Investiture, much like how a Pewterarm's body can impose its Intent and burn pewter to survive, even when the person is unconscious. Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/498-youtube-spoiler-stream-4/#e15700 Aradanftw Kaladin and Vin both have used magic subconsciously. Kaladin while training with the bridge plank and drawing in Stormlight, and Vin burning pewter while being beaten. Does that mean that Intent is not always required, or is a simple Intent like "I will be strong" enough to activate the magic system? Brandon Sanderson I'm going to go with the simple Intent answer that you're giving there. So, at the basic level... the more specific and the more powerful you want to be, the more you need to understand your Intent, is where this is. The body has an Intent. Kaladin uses the magic while he's unconscious, right? The Intent is survive, basically the body knowing it needs to survive. And this is possible to an extent with a lot of the magic systems, just kind of in the base, physical sense, your body knowing how to use what it's been given, is going to happen. You're going to see this with other instances in the magic as well. And even kind of not knowing or not wanting to face it, you can get some base level of power in most of the magics. Yes, it's the second one in that you can make the argument that your body just wants to survive, and things like this, but Intent really starts to play into it when you're doing distinct and increasingly powerful things with the magics. Intent is like your ability to focus, right? You can fire a sniper rifle on accident, but hitting the thing that you want to hit with it requires a lot of practice and focus. That practice and focus in the magic systems is often Intent-related. This also fits well with Heightenings, as we know from Denth and Vasher that they can be suppressed with the right mental gymnastics, meaning a more direct Intent can override your subconscious Intents, even meaning you may have some control over which perks you retain should you do this. Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/250-warbreaker-annotations/#e6808 Brandon Sanderson Denth's Speed Yes, Denth is inhumanly fast. He's a Returned, after all, and has all of the physical enhancements that come with that. Even when he's chosen not to manifest most of them, he's still got an edge, just like Vasher does. How do they hide that they're Returned? Well, it comes down to mastery of their ability to change their appearance. They can't shape-shift entirely; they can just alter some things about their appearance. They can change their weight, their hair color, and things like that at will. Vasher doesn't do this often, but Denth has been known to use it as a disguise. The problem, after you do this once and someone realizes it, your nature becomes very suspect. They have learned to suppress their divine Breath. This allows them to hide, but they must be careful never to give away all of their Breath. Denth has been a Drab before—he's not completely lying—but never for longer than a few days. And his divine Breath is always there, suppressed. So he doesn't know what it's like to be a true Drab, which is why in this chapter he says he doesn't think it changes you that much. He's never felt it. These subconscious Intents probably are what direct the Investiture to boost basic functions, like strength, speed, and health for the physical aspect, memory and the ability to impose one's conscious Intent (like Command breaking) for the cognitive, or one's agelessness, Connection reading (like when Radiant Spren are aware of happenstance or Returned accurately deciphering abstract paintings), and Lifesense spiritually. However, if an Investiture already is assigned a task, like the Innate Investiture of an Allomancer or Surgebinder or the Kinetic Investiture of actively using them, little to no Heightening effects should occur, as the Investiture has other Intents hardwritten into it (Radiants are considered Invested in same way that can be mistaken for having Investiture of a certain Heightening, but this could be because their partially fused with a highly Invested being whose Spiritweb probably doesn't just consist of their powers, so not all additional Investiture they bear may be tied up). If I remember correctly, I believe we see this phenomenon in TSM when Nomad is able to metabolize a few hundred BEUs from his Torment without losing any effectiveness to his Heightenings- the Investiture was there before, it was just assigned another task and therefore couldn't boost the other attributes he had. Now, there's something to add about free-floating Investiture being able to boost your health and longevity, as standing in the Mists will actually help in some miniscule manner, though with this being fairly unconcentrated Investiture around only briefly, its effects aren't particularly useful. Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/360-legion-release-party/#e10900 OrangeJedi So if the skaa on Scadrial had gone out in the mists more often, would they have had a longer lifespan? Brandon Sanderson *Hesitant* The skaa lifespans are more related to their status in life than genetic predisposition. Going in the mists probably would not have changed that. OrangeJedi I didn't think of it that way, I thought of it more from a, "Oh, people on Roshar have a longer lifespan because of Investiture." Because the mists are Invested. Brandon Sanderson *Hesitant* Technically yes, but I think it's going to be pretty miniscule. Technically yes. Basically, it doesn't matter if general Investiture is free-floating or Innate, as your Intent still channels it to boost standard attributes, but free-floating Investiture probably is too diluted and/or temporary to be terribly reliable (though maybe chilling in a Shardpool jacuzzi might actually work). I'd also like to add, I believe the Heightenings are actually a rather inefficent method of obtaining these passive attribute boosts. We see Kandra Blessings- each presumably made from less than single BEU of Investiture due to Identity contamination (one donor only), Hemalurgic decay, and each attribute bearing only a fraction of a person's total Investiture- being capable of augmenting one's attributes substantially (the Blessing of Potency over doubling one's strength, as well as making you quicker as hinted in various dialog). This could perhaps be because a subconscious Intent is a weaker Intent. The more you consciously understand what you're doing (or potentially have a more direct, hardwritten Intent, like in the Metallic Arts and Surgebinding), the more efficient and powerful you become with what you have. Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/498-youtube-spoiler-stream-4/#e15700 Aradanftw Kaladin and Vin both have used magic subconsciously. Kaladin while training with the bridge plank and drawing in Stormlight, and Vin burning pewter while being beaten. Does that mean that Intent is not always required, or is a simple Intent like "I will be strong" enough to activate the magic system? Brandon Sanderson I'm going to go with the simple Intent answer that you're giving there. So, at the basic level... the more specific and the more powerful you want to be, the more you need to understand your Intent, is where this is. The body has an Intent. Kaladin uses the magic while he's unconscious, right? The Intent is survive, basically the body knowing it needs to survive. And this is possible to an extent with a lot of the magic systems, just kind of in the base, physical sense, your body knowing how to use what it's been given, is going to happen. You're going to see this with other instances in the magic as well. And even kind of not knowing or not wanting to face it, you can get some base level of power in most of the magics. Yes, it's the second one in that you can make the argument that your body just wants to survive, and things like this, but Intent really starts to play into it when you're doing distinct and increasingly powerful things with the magics. Intent is like your ability to focus, right? You can fire a sniper rifle on accident, but hitting the thing that you want to hit with it requires a lot of practice and focus. That practice and focus in the magic systems is often Intent-related. (Yes, I already used this WoB earlier, but different parts are relevant here) In short, I propose that the Heightenings are a result of a person's subconscious Intents driving a substantial amount of general Investiture to boost their natural functions. Hardwritten powers like Allomancy and Feruchemy probably do not contribute to this, as they are bound up in other tasks. Any additional insights, pointers, or critiques? Edited November 13, 2024 by Trusk'our 4
Immortal Platypus Posted November 13, 2024 Posted November 13, 2024 3 hours ago, Trusk'our said: The Heightenings have been kind of annoying to me, as it seems like they should be more prevalent, given that so many people are Invested. There's definitely an element of there simply not being the same level of Investiture present in magic systems like Allomancy and Surgebinding as in Awakening (at least not in the form of Innate Investiture), but TLR was an extremely powerful Allomancer who gained his powers directly from the Well of Ascension. Seems like some Heightening effects would have been present. Or, what about Bondsmiths? Sure, most of the actual Investiture is probably tied to their vast Spren, but being Connected to them is basically hot wiring their souls together, making them act more as one, which makes that point rather moot. As such, I strongly suspect there must be something more than just possessing large portions of Investiture to obtain Heightenings. We know that Investiture responds to the thoughts and intents of thinking beings (as per Design's explanation in Yumi). I think that there is a subconscious level of Intent that your physical, cognitive, and spiritual aspects all impose on general Investiture, much like how a Pewterarm's body can impose its Intent and burn pewter to survive, even when the person is unconscious. Reveal hidden contents https://wob.coppermind.net/events/498-youtube-spoiler-stream-4/#e15700 Aradanftw Kaladin and Vin both have used magic subconsciously. Kaladin while training with the bridge plank and drawing in Stormlight, and Vin burning pewter while being beaten. Does that mean that Intent is not always required, or is a simple Intent like "I will be strong" enough to activate the magic system? Brandon Sanderson I'm going to go with the simple Intent answer that you're giving there. So, at the basic level... the more specific and the more powerful you want to be, the more you need to understand your Intent, is where this is. The body has an Intent. Kaladin uses the magic while he's unconscious, right? The Intent is survive, basically the body knowing it needs to survive. And this is possible to an extent with a lot of the magic systems, just kind of in the base, physical sense, your body knowing how to use what it's been given, is going to happen. You're going to see this with other instances in the magic as well. And even kind of not knowing or not wanting to face it, you can get some base level of power in most of the magics. Yes, it's the second one in that you can make the argument that your body just wants to survive, and things like this, but Intent really starts to play into it when you're doing distinct and increasingly powerful things with the magics. Intent is like your ability to focus, right? You can fire a sniper rifle on accident, but hitting the thing that you want to hit with it requires a lot of practice and focus. That practice and focus in the magic systems is often Intent-related. This also fits well with Heightenings, as we know from Denth and Vasher that they can be suppressed with the right mental gymnastics, meaning a more direct Intent can override your subconscious Intents, even meaning you may have some control over which perks you retain should you do this. Reveal hidden contents https://wob.coppermind.net/events/250-warbreaker-annotations/#e6808 Brandon Sanderson Denth's Speed Yes, Denth is inhumanly fast. He's a Returned, after all, and has all of the physical enhancements that come with that. Even when he's chosen not to manifest most of them, he's still got an edge, just like Vasher does. How do they hide that they're Returned? Well, it comes down to mastery of their ability to change their appearance. They can't shape-shift entirely; they can just alter some things about their appearance. They can change their weight, their hair color, and things like that at will. Vasher doesn't do this often, but Denth has been known to use it as a disguise. The problem, after you do this once and someone realizes it, your nature becomes very suspect. They have learned to suppress their divine Breath. This allows them to hide, but they must be careful never to give away all of their Breath. Denth has been a Drab before—he's not completely lying—but never for longer than a few days. And his divine Breath is always there, suppressed. So he doesn't know what it's like to be a true Drab, which is why in this chapter he says he doesn't think it changes you that much. He's never felt it. These subconscious Intents probably are what direct the Investiture to boost basic functions, like strength, speed, and health for the physical aspect, memory and the ability to impose one's conscious Intent (like Command breaking) for the cognitive, or one's agelessness, Connection reading (like when Radiant Spren are aware of happenstance or Returned accurately deciphering abstract paintings), and Lifesense spiritually. However, if an Investiture already is assigned a task, like the Innate Investiture of an Allomancer or Surgebinder or the Kinetic Investiture of actively using them, little to no Heightening effects should occur, as the Investiture has other Intents hardwritten into it (Radiants are considered Invested in same way that can be mistaken for having Investiture of a certain Heightening, but this could be because their partially fused with a highly Invested being whose Spiritweb probably doesn't just consist of their powers, so not all additional Investiture they bear may be tied up). If I remember correctly, I believe we see this phenomenon in TSM when Nomad is able to metabolize a few hundred BEUs from his Torment without losing any effectiveness to his Heightenings- the Investiture was there before, it was just assigned another task and therefore couldn't boost the other attributes he had. Now, there's something to add about free-floating Investiture being able to boost your health and longevity, as standing in the Mists will actually help in some miniscule manner, though with this being fairly unconcentrated Investiture around only briefly, its effects aren't particularly useful. Reveal hidden contents https://wob.coppermind.net/events/360-legion-release-party/#e10900 OrangeJedi So if the skaa on Scadrial had gone out in the mists more often, would they have had a longer lifespan? Brandon Sanderson *Hesitant* The skaa lifespans are more related to their status in life than genetic predisposition. Going in the mists probably would not have changed that. OrangeJedi I didn't think of it that way, I thought of it more from a, "Oh, people on Roshar have a longer lifespan because of Investiture." Because the mists are Invested. Brandon Sanderson *Hesitant* Technically yes, but I think it's going to be pretty miniscule. Technically yes. Basically, it doesn't matter if general Investiture is free-floating or Innate, as your Intent still channels it to boost standard attributes, but free-floating Investiture probably is too diluted and/or temporary to be terribly reliable (though maybe chilling in a Shardpool jacuzzi might actually work). I'd also like to add, I believe the Heightenings are actually a rather inefficent method of obtaining these passive attribute boosts. We see Kandra Blessings- each presumably made from less than single BEU of Investiture due to Identity contamination (one donor only), Hemalurgic decay, and each attribute bearing only a fraction of a person's total Investiture- being capable of augmenting one's attributes substantially (the Blessing of Potency over doubling one's strength, as well as making you quicker as hinted in various dialog). This could perhaps be because a subconscious Intent is a weaker Intent. The more you consciously understand what you're doing (or potentially have a more direct, hardwritten Intent, like in the Metallic Arts and Surgebinding), the more efficient and powerful you become with what you have. Reveal hidden contents https://wob.coppermind.net/events/498-youtube-spoiler-stream-4/#e15700 Aradanftw Kaladin and Vin both have used magic subconsciously. Kaladin while training with the bridge plank and drawing in Stormlight, and Vin burning pewter while being beaten. Does that mean that Intent is not always required, or is a simple Intent like "I will be strong" enough to activate the magic system? Brandon Sanderson I'm going to go with the simple Intent answer that you're giving there. So, at the basic level... the more specific and the more powerful you want to be, the more you need to understand your Intent, is where this is. The body has an Intent. Kaladin uses the magic while he's unconscious, right? The Intent is survive, basically the body knowing it needs to survive. And this is possible to an extent with a lot of the magic systems, just kind of in the base, physical sense, your body knowing how to use what it's been given, is going to happen. You're going to see this with other instances in the magic as well. And even kind of not knowing or not wanting to face it, you can get some base level of power in most of the magics. Yes, it's the second one in that you can make the argument that your body just wants to survive, and things like this, but Intent really starts to play into it when you're doing distinct and increasingly powerful things with the magics. Intent is like your ability to focus, right? You can fire a sniper rifle on accident, but hitting the thing that you want to hit with it requires a lot of practice and focus. That practice and focus in the magic systems is often Intent-related. (Yes, I already used this WoB earlier, but different parts are relevant here) In short, I propose that the Heightenings are a result of a person's subconscious Intents driving a substantial amount of general Investiture to boost their natural functions. Hardwritten powers like Allomancy and Feruchemy probably do not contribute to this, as they are bound up in other tasks. Any additional insights, pointers, or critiques? I believe that in the end of Dawnshard when the Dawnshard is obtained, it gives Rysn some level of Heightening. How would that work with this? I feel like all present Investiture in that would be directed to the Command the Dawnshard represents, so if this theory is correct, how would the Dawnshard provide a Heightening? 4
Trusk'our he/him Posted November 13, 2024 Author Posted November 13, 2024 47 minutes ago, Immortal Platypus said: I believe that in the end of Dawnshard when the Dawnshard is obtained, it gives Rysn some level of Heightening. How would that work with this? I feel like all present Investiture in that would be directed to the Command the Dawnshard represents, so if this theory is correct, how would the Dawnshard provide a Heightening? That's an excellent point. All Dawnshards provide a measure of Investiture simply from holding them. Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/444-dawnshard-annotations-reddit-qa/#e14339 The21stPotato Can you tell us the equivalent Heightening she [Rysn] now has? She seems to be at least Third Heightening equivalent but I'm not sure how much else she has gained from holding a Dawnshard. Do ALL Dawnshards grant these Heightening-like effects? Brandon Sanderson All Dawnshards would grant the same effects in this regard. As for specifics, I think I'll leave that as what is mentioned in the text, for now. (Sorry.) We do know that Dawnshards are supposed to be relatively harmless if borne by someone with no specific way to direct Investiture, so perhaps the Dawnshard itself lacks this component (I believe this is also directly stated in Dawnshard chapter 19, or at least that's what the Coppermind says). Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/444-dawnshard-annotations-reddit-qa/#e14333 Mycroft_canner Did she use the command to manipulate the Sleepless? He seems pretty surprised it worked... Brandon Sanderson Rysn did not use the Dawnshard in this story, and indeed is incapable of it. I think it's likely that general Investiture is drawn to a Dawnshard, but unless the person actively gives a Command to hone the Intent, it will mostly stay as general Investiture and contribute to their Heightenings, or be siphoned off to fuel other individual changes, like Nomad's Torment. 3
Treamayne Posted November 14, 2024 Posted November 14, 2024 Thanks for another great post. 8 hours ago, Trusk'our said: I propose that the Heightenings are a result of a person's subconscious Intents driving a substantial amount of general Investiture to boost their natural functions. I'd like to point out that Riino shows that Elantrians also experience, at least, Life Sense and Agelessness. Rysn experiences the Perfect Color Recognition, but not Perfect Pitch or Breath Aura. She also experiences a change to Taste that is not a Nalthian Heightening. I think that some "Heightenings" are based on the source of the investiture and/or the location of the investiture (breath Auras occur because Naltian Breath is primarily Physical Realm). So far, Agelessness seems to be the only "universal" Heightening (or, at least shown to be in all examples so far). 2
Trusk'our he/him Posted November 14, 2024 Author Posted November 14, 2024 1 hour ago, Treamayne said: I'd like to point out that Riino shows that Elantrians also experience, at least, Life Sense and Agelessness. Rysn experiences the Perfect Color Recognition, but not Perfect Pitch or Breath Aura. She also experiences a change to Taste that is not a Nalthian Heightening. I think that some "Heightenings" are based on the source of the investiture and/or the location of the investiture (breath Auras occur because Naltian Breath is primarily Physical Realm). So far, Agelessness seems to be the only "universal" Heightening (or, at least shown to be in all examples so far). Ah, those are some good points. I think Elantrians are kinda weird in particular. Design considers them to be very highly Invested, even compared to other Invested beings. However, I think much of this Investiture may be due to an artificial boost from Elantris itself. Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/133-elantris-annotations/#e2230 Brandon Sanderson Weak Aons Elantris is like a massive power conduit. It focuses the Dor, strengthening its power (or, rather, the power of the Aons to release it) in Arelon. This far away from Elantris, however, the Aons are about as powerful as they were before Raoden fixed Elantris. If you consider it, it makes logical sense that the Aons would be tied to Elantris and Arelon, yet would work without them. The Aons had to exist before Elantris–otherwise, the original Elantrians wouldn't have known the shape to make the city. Their study of AonDor taught them a method for amplifying Aon power. We know, for example, that Elantrians lose their characteristic glowing metallic skin when they stray too far from the Dor, presumably because they aren't working as a conduit for Investiture anymore. Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100-rbooks-ama-2015/#e3407 Yourigath Can you access the Dor while on other planets? Can you, I don't know, "tell the Dor" that you are on Roshar using an Aon that doesn't have the base on the map of Sel but in the world of Roshar and use Elantrian magic there? An Aon with an spiral pattern with the right lines, dots, etc... that tells the Dor "I'm here. This is Roshar. And I need your power to do X" Brandon Sanderson Great question, and one integral to the workings of cosmere Magic! No, you cannot currently access the Dor anywhere else. The Dor is a big part of why magic on Sel is distinctive. Yourigath If an Elantrian worldhops does it returns to a normal human pre-Shaod state? If this Elantrian goes back to Sel it recovers his Elantrian powers or he keeps his pre-Shaod form? Brandon Sanderson An Elantrian away from Sel would still be an Elantrian--but many of the visible signs would fade away, much like something florescent that stops glowing when moved away from a Black Light. Essentially, I think the artificial boost of Investiture might actually be what grants Elantrians some Heightening effects, like agelessness, speed, and strength. These traits might be direct effects more than actual Heightenings, especially considering that Elantrian longevity differs from Heightening longevity in its psychological toll. Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/86-gollanczfest-london/#e5685 Questioner (paraphrased) [Something about whether Elantrians are immortal or long-lived] Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Elantrians have no physical limitations on their lifespan. The power will sustain them, but it's emotionally and mentally exhausting to be an Elantrian, so as far as immortality goes it's actually harder to be an Elantrian than other forms of immortality that exist in the cosmere. Additionally, I think Riino himself might actually have Breaths. His crystal ball seemed to shimmer with Bio-Chroma, he seemed to have a noticeable Lifesense even when other Elantrians don't express that trait, and he automatically assumes Kaladin has Breaths when using his Fortune ball. Quote She also experiences a change to Taste that is not a Nalthian Heightening. I'll have to do more digging later, but I think it's mentioned Returned have some weird ability to remotely taste with their Breath. Khrissilla's papers on Nalthis were supposed to discuss this, I think? 2 hours ago, Treamayne said: Thanks for another great post. Thanks so much! I always enjoy a good Cosmere mechanics discussion. 3
Treamayne Posted November 14, 2024 Posted November 14, 2024 7 hours ago, Trusk'our said: Additionally, I think Riino himself might actually have Breaths. His crystal ball seemed to shimmer with Bio-Chroma Rather than re-hash, I'll just note that the nature of Dor in an Elantrian (Reod or not) and various Heightening-like effects were discussed at length: Plot Hole in Elantris 7th Heightening As for the Oracle, the shimmering has nothing to do with Bio-Chroma (or, at least, there is no evidence that it does) it has to do with the Nature of Investiture, as seen in the Shadesmar Sky when a Highstorm Passes, or in White Sand during Khriss' Experiments (and likely has clues to the nature of Lights). Spoiler Quote White Sand Ars Arcanum Page 13: Quote Take the color of the glow of sand mastery. Manuscripts and carvings show sand ribbons glowing yellow or orange, attempts by artists to show something undepictable with paint alone. Indeed, observed in pure daylight, sand mastery does appear a yellowish white, but a closer examination shows that it shimmers like mother of pearl, iridescent colors shifting and sliding across the mastered sand. This effect is much more prominent in darkness, something of a rarity here on Dayside. Since sand mastery rarely happens in darkness, not many have recorded observing this effect. I can almost make out every color of starmark shifting in there. Could it be possible that the light given off by sand mastery is a composite of all colors of starmarks? If I can get hold of a prism, I might be able to verify this observation and study it further. Oathbringer Ch 101: Quote He trailed off as, overhead, the clouds suddenly rippled, glowing with a strange mother-of-pearl iridescence. Another highstorm, their second since arriving in Shadesmar. The group stopped and stared up at the dramatic light show. Nearby, the Reachers seemed to stand up more straight, move about their sailing duties more vigorously. “See,” Azure said. “I told you. They must feed off it, somehow.” WoB: Quote Questioner Does Gallant's eyes being rainbow have any cosmere significance? Brandon Sanderson It is an indication of his spren bond; it's a way that I was getting across that. A lot of times, when you see kind of mother-of-pearl or a rainbow shimmer of luminescence, that is an indication of something happening with Investiture in the cosmere. You'll see it in White Sand being used; you see it periodically in manifestations of the Nahel bond, and that sort of thing. Tor Instagram Livestream (Nov. 25, 2020) Hope that helps 1
Trusk'our he/him Posted November 14, 2024 Author Posted November 14, 2024 (edited) 2 hours ago, Treamayne said: As for the Oracle, the shimmering has nothing to do with Bio-Chroma (or, at least, there is no evidence that it does) it has to do with the Nature of Investiture, as seen in the Shadesmar Sky when a Highstorm Passes, or in White Sand during Khriss' Experiments (and likely has clues to the nature of Lights). Reveal hidden contents It's been a while since I had access to OB, but didn't Kaladin specify that his vision with the orb was different than his typical one riding the Storm? That there was a rainbow of colors, like with Bio-Chroma, and the Stormfather mentioned later that he couldn't sense Kaladin there like he normally does (possibly because their using a different Shard's Investiture)? Edited November 14, 2024 by Trusk'our 1
Treamayne Posted November 14, 2024 Posted November 14, 2024 22 minutes ago, Trusk'our said: It's been a while since I had access to OB, but didn't Kaladin specify that his vision with the orb was different than his typical one riding the Storm? That there was a rainbow of colors, like with Bio-Chroma, and the Stormfather mentioned later that he couldn't sense Kaladin there like he normally does (possibly because their using a different Shard's Investiture)? References: Spoiler Oathbringer Ch 97: Quote “I should really get my friends.…” Kaladin said. The man whipped the cloth off the table, revealing a large crystalline globe. It glowed with a powerful light, bathing the room in luminescence. Kaladin blinked against it. Was that Stormlight? “Are you balking at the price?” the man said. <snip> Outside, the sky rippled with light. The clouds shimmered, gaining a strange, ethereal luminescence. Kaladin gaped, then glanced back at the little man, who had fetched a ledger from a side table. “That…” Kaladin said. “Is that what a highstorm looks like on this side?” “Hmmm? Oh, new, are you? How have you gotten into Shadesmar, but not seen a storm pass? Did you come directly from the perpendicularity?” The old man frowned. “Not a lot of people coming through there anymore.” That light. The bright sphere on the table—as large as a man’s head, and glowing with a milky light—shifted colors, matching the pearlescent ripples above. There was no gemstone inside that globe. And the light seemed different. Transfixing. <snip> Kaladin rode the storm. He’d done this before, in dreams. He’d even spoken to the Stormfather. This felt different. He rode in a shimmering, rippling surge of colors. Around him, the clouds streamed past at incredible speed, coming alight with those colors. Pulsing with them, as if to a beat. He couldn’t feel the Stormfather. He couldn’t see a landscape beneath him. Just shimmering colors, and clouds that faded into … light. Then a figure. Dalinar Kholin, kneeling someplace dark, surrounded by nine shadows. A flash of glowing red eyes. <snip> “You saw something!” Kaladin nodded weakly. “How? Impossible. Unless … you’re Invested. What Heightening are you?” He squinted at Kaladin. “No. Something else. Merciful Domi … A Surgebinder? It has begun again?” However, Fortune accessed through the Iridescent Tones and BioChromatic Breath does not work as shown in Oathbringer: Warbreaker Annotatoins to Ch 26: Spoiler Lightsong Sees the Painting of the Red Battle This is our first major clue (though a subtle one at the same time) that there might be something to the religion of the Iridescent Tones. Lightsong does see something in this painting that an ordinary person wouldn't be able to. A well-crafted piece of art, made by a person channeling the Tones and connected to them via Breath, can speak to a Returned. Now, in this case, it doesn't work quite like Llarimar says it does—Lightsong doesn't actually prophesy about the black sword in the way the priest thinks. In other words, Lightsong isn't prophesying that he'll see the Black Sword (Nightblood) in the day's activities. Instead, Lightsong is seeing an image of a previous war, which is prophetic in that another Manywar is brewing—and in both cases, Nightblood will be important to the outcome of the battle. The person Lightsong sees in the abstract painting is Shashara, Denth's sister, one of the Five Scholars and a Returned also known as Glorysinger by the Cult of the Returned. She is seen here in Lightsong's vision as she's drawing Nightblood at the battle of Twilight Falls. It's the only time the sword was drawn in battle, and Vasher was horrified by the result. It's because of her insistence on using the sword in battle, and on giving away the secret to creating more, that Vasher and she fought. He ended up killing her with Nightblood, which they'd created together during the days they were in love—he married her a short time before their falling out. That marriage ended with him slaying his own wife to keep her from creating more abominations like Nightblood and loosing them upon the world. Nightblood is part of a much larger story in this world. He's dropped casually into this particular book, more as a side note than a real focus of what's going on, but his own role in the world is much, much larger than his supporting part here would indicate. Warbreaker Annotations (Nov. 16, 2010) WoB: Quote R'Shara The two paintings--The Battle of Twilight Falls, and the one that Kaladin sees in Shadesmar. Are they the same? Brandon Sanderson I believe that they are, but I could have...When I wrote the original scene, I intended them to be, but I might have changed something later on. They would be by the same artist. You can say yes, unless I changed something. There was something I was thinking of changing. I'd have to go back and look at them side by side. R'Shara But they sounded different. One has black in it, that the other one doesn't. Brandon Sanderson The thing is, that artist, and people seeing it, I intend them to each see something different in the paintings they see. But I don't know that I actually decided to make that the same painting. But the same artist. Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019) I won't say you are wrong, because we do not have cofirmation or definitive evidence either way. I will say that it is far more likely that the orb is filled with Liquid Dor (considering it is manned by an Ire) and that the iridescence is the Dor reacting to the Highstorm (as referenced previously) allowing Light to move between realms (including back to the Spiritual Realm). You are right that it was not a dream or anything like riding the storm that Kaladin experienced a few times (though that is the only comparison he can draw), it was a direct connection to Fortune in the Spiritual Realm and closer to Kelsier's experiences in M:SH (both peeking at Ruin in the Well, and from Leras Fuzz). Hope that helps 1
Trusk'our he/him Posted November 14, 2024 Author Posted November 14, 2024 3 minutes ago, Treamayne said: References: Hide contents Oathbringer Ch 97: However, Fortune accessed through the Iridescent Tones and BioChromatic Breath does not work as shown in Oathbringer: Warbreaker Annotatoins to Ch 26: Hide contents Lightsong Sees the Painting of the Red Battle This is our first major clue (though a subtle one at the same time) that there might be something to the religion of the Iridescent Tones. Lightsong does see something in this painting that an ordinary person wouldn't be able to. A well-crafted piece of art, made by a person channeling the Tones and connected to them via Breath, can speak to a Returned. Now, in this case, it doesn't work quite like Llarimar says it does—Lightsong doesn't actually prophesy about the black sword in the way the priest thinks. In other words, Lightsong isn't prophesying that he'll see the Black Sword (Nightblood) in the day's activities. Instead, Lightsong is seeing an image of a previous war, which is prophetic in that another Manywar is brewing—and in both cases, Nightblood will be important to the outcome of the battle. The person Lightsong sees in the abstract painting is Shashara, Denth's sister, one of the Five Scholars and a Returned also known as Glorysinger by the Cult of the Returned. She is seen here in Lightsong's vision as she's drawing Nightblood at the battle of Twilight Falls. It's the only time the sword was drawn in battle, and Vasher was horrified by the result. It's because of her insistence on using the sword in battle, and on giving away the secret to creating more, that Vasher and she fought. He ended up killing her with Nightblood, which they'd created together during the days they were in love—he married her a short time before their falling out. That marriage ended with him slaying his own wife to keep her from creating more abominations like Nightblood and loosing them upon the world. Nightblood is part of a much larger story in this world. He's dropped casually into this particular book, more as a side note than a real focus of what's going on, but his own role in the world is much, much larger than his supporting part here would indicate. Warbreaker Annotations (Nov. 16, 2010) WoB: I won't say you are wrong, because we do not have cofirmation or definitive evidence either way. I will say that it is far more likely that the orb is filled with Liquid Dor (considering it is manned by an Ire) and that the iridescence is the Dor reacting to the Highstorm (as referenced previously) allowing Light to move between realms (including back to the Spiritual Realm). You are right that it was not a dream or anything like riding the storm that Kaladin experienced a few times (though that is the only comparison he can draw), it was a direct connection to Fortune in the Spiritual Realm and closer to Kelsier's experiences in M:SH (both peeking at Ruin in the Well, and from Leras Fuzz). Hope that helps Nah, you've provide adequate evidence. I'm now convinced the orb probably doesn't contain Breaths, which I had assumed for a while, but the quotes definitely don't lean in that direction. I will say that I don't think a Returned accessing Fortune necessarily restricts all Bio-Chroma to that same method (especially if it's a construct made through some kind of Command), but other than that I think I can agree with you now. Thanks for finding the quotes! 1
Treamayne Posted November 14, 2024 Posted November 14, 2024 24 minutes ago, Trusk'our said: I don't think a Returned accessing Fortune necessarily restricts all Bio-Chroma to that same method You're likely right here, after all there has to be a way for that unnamed artist to "channel the Tones" when making the artwork. I just think that because Biochromatic Breath is primarily a PR investiture, my personal canon (pending evidence for-or-against) is that they invest themselves (similar to the Memory Command) in some way to create the Connection to the Tones (and therefore Fortune, as employed by Endowment). 1
Through The Living Grub He/Him Posted November 15, 2024 Posted November 15, 2024 On 11/13/2024 at 10:06 AM, Trusk'our said: There's definitely an element of there simply not being the same level of Investiture present in magic systems like Allomancy and Surgebinding as in Awakening (at least not in the form of Innate Investiture), but TLR was an extremely powerful Allomancer who gained his powers directly from the Well of Ascension. Seems like some Heightening effects would have been present Story time! I heard something that certain groups of people can identify a specific color from a similar one because they have a word for it. They have a word because it is important enough or common enough that is can be identified. TLR probably had these effects, but he might not have noticed them, and if he did he wouldn't know what it was. On 11/13/2024 at 10:06 AM, Trusk'our said: There's definitely an element of there simply not being the same level of Investiture present in magic systems like Allomancy and Surgebinding as in Awakening (at least not in the form of Innate Investiture), but TLR was an extremely powerful Allomancer who gained his powers directly from the Well of Ascension. Seems like some Heightening effects would have been present I think the discrepancy between these effects is because raw Investiture itself can boost you physically, as seen in MSH, but it takes magnitudes more probably because it isn't specifically doing something so you get the side effects. Whereas Hemalurgy is literally altering your spiritweb, which alters you directly. 1
Trusk'our he/him Posted November 15, 2024 Author Posted November 15, 2024 25 minutes ago, Xiahida said: Story time! I heard something that certain groups of people can identify a specific color from a similar one because they have a word for it. They have a word because it is important enough or common enough that is can be identified. TLR probably had these effects, but he might not have noticed them, and if he did he wouldn't know what it was. It's possible. I'm still somewhat hesitant to think strong Allomancy can lead to Heightenings though, as Elend didn't exemplify any despite his potent abilities. This could still just be a matter of very few BEUs being present, but on the flipside this would have to make powering up the Metallic Arts stupidly easy. If a Lerasium Mistborn has fewer than 30 ish BEUs available to them (when the First Heightening starts showing up) then hot wiring other Invested Arts like Awakening to empower Allomancy would quickly become very powerful. Spoiler Ars Arcanum Aura Recognition: The First Heightening grants a person the ability to see the Breath auras of others instinctively. This allows them to judge roughly how many Breaths the person contains and the general health of that Breath. Persons without this Heightening have a much more difficult time judging auras directly, and must rely instead on how deeply the colors around a person change when they enter the aura. Without at least the First Heightening, it is impossible for the naked eye to notice an Awakener who has fewer than about thirty Breaths. 36 minutes ago, Xiahida said: I think the discrepancy between these effects is because raw Investiture itself can boost you physically, as seen in MSH, but it takes magnitudes more probably because it isn't specifically doing something so you get the side effects. Whereas Hemalurgy is literally altering your spiritweb, which alters you directly. That's also a good point. I wonder if H-nicrosil or duralumin can be hacked to grant better longevity by directly meddling with what the Heightenings would indirectly. On 11/14/2024 at 9:52 AM, Treamayne said: You're likely right here, after all there has to be a way for that unnamed artist to "channel the Tones" when making the artwork. I just think that because Biochromatic Breath is primarily a PR investiture, my personal canon (pending evidence for-or-against) is that they invest themselves (similar to the Memory Command) in some way to create the Connection to the Tones (and therefore Fortune, as employed by Endowment). Could be a plausible Command. I think if it's more common for Heightened artists to do this that it might just be another blanket function of the Heightenings, passively boosting one's Fortune like their other attributes. Or, maybe it's like how a Heightened person will have their aura flare with strong emotions or when dying- when focusing their skills or entering a flow state, their Breaths channel more Fortune or maybe just convey the person's Intent through their artwork better. 1
Treamayne Posted November 15, 2024 Posted November 15, 2024 39 minutes ago, Trusk'our said: I think if it's more common for Heightened artists to do this that it might just be another blanket function of the Heightenings, passively boosting one's Fortune like their other attributes. Or, maybe it's like how a Heightened person will have their aura flare with strong emotions or when dying- when focusing their skills or entering a flow state, their Breaths channel more Fortune or maybe just convey the person's Intent through their artwork better. That is also entirely possible. Like I said, we simply do not have enough information - but at the same time, there is likely a reason why Brandon specifically used the phrase "channel the tones." I'd guess it is also possible that it isn't a specific Command, but may be a subcouncious Intent (much like Kal drawing in Stormlight while unconcious or Vin burning Pewter the same way). 1
Sythrin Posted November 16, 2024 Posted November 16, 2024 On 11/13/2024 at 5:06 PM, Trusk'our said: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/498-youtube-spoiler-stream-4/#e15700 Aradanftw Kaladin and Vin both have used magic subconsciously. Kaladin while training with the bridge plank and drawing in Stormlight, and Vin burning pewter while being beaten. Does that mean that Intent is not always required, or is a simple Intent like "I will be strong" enough to activate the magic system? Brandon Sanderson I'm going to go with the simple Intent answer that you're giving there. So, at the basic level... the more specific and the more powerful you want to be, the more you need to understand your Intent, is where this is. The body has an Intent. Kaladin uses the magic while he's unconscious, right? The Intent is survive, basically the body knowing it needs to survive. And this is possible to an extent with a lot of the magic systems, just kind of in the base, physical sense, your body knowing how to use what it's been given, is going to happen. You're going to see this with other instances in the magic as well. And even kind of not knowing or not wanting to face it, you can get some base level of power in most of the magics. Yes, it's the second one in that you can make the argument that your body just wants to survive, and things like this, but Intent really starts to play into it when you're doing distinct and increasingly powerful things with the magics. Intent is like your ability to focus, right? You can fire a sniper rifle on accident, but hitting the thing that you want to hit with it requires a lot of practice and focus. That practice and focus in the magic systems is often Intent-related. (Yes, I already used this WoB earlier, but different parts are relevant here) In short, I propose that the Heightenings are a result of a person's subconscious Intents driving a substantial amount of general Investiture to boost their natural functions. Hardwritten powers like Allomancy and Feruchemy probably do not contribute to this, as they are bound up in other tasks. Any additional insights, pointers, or critiques? I generaly had since long the idea, that if you already are invested and than gain breath, you get a higher heightening. Like it is a key to unlock but you can substitute steps to higher with extra invedtiture.
Trusk'our he/him Posted November 16, 2024 Author Posted November 16, 2024 3 hours ago, Sythrin said: I generaly had since long the idea, that if you already are invested and than gain breath, you get a higher heightening. Like it is a key to unlock but you can substitute steps to higher with extra invedtiture. That is certainly still a possibility, we don't know for certain yet. I'm currently not leaning in that direction with what we know, but really we'll need a more direct WoB or in-world explanation before we can be concrete.
scientificmotif Posted December 2, 2024 Posted December 2, 2024 On 11/15/2024 at 11:11 AM, Trusk'our said: It's possible. I'm still somewhat hesitant to think strong Allomancy can lead to Heightenings though, as Elend didn't exemplify any despite his potent abilities. This could still just be a matter of very few BEUs being present, but on the flipside this would have to make powering up the Metallic Arts stupidly easy. If a Lerasium Mistborn has fewer than 30 ish BEUs available to them (when the First Heightening starts showing up) then hot wiring other Invested Arts like Awakening to empower Allomancy would quickly become very powerful. We've seen Allomancy powered by other Investiure before. However, you're talking about Heightenings, so I assume you're talking about making the Mistborn themselves more powerful (Being able to pull more power from Preservation) It's not exactly as simple as "Give a person some Investiture and they become more powerful Allomancers." Burning pure Dor doesn't make you a more powerful Allomancer, for example, it's just extremely efficient fuel. The power of your Allomancy is hardcoded into your Spiritual Web. You'd need to have an Invested art that messes with your Spiritual Web specifically, not just any old source of Investiture. *cough* Hemalurgy *cough*, If I remember it correctly, there's also Connection to Preservation involved, so it'd be difficult if not impossible to use Aons to create Allomancers. Forgery could work, but only temporarily: Quote Aneesh If there's a Forger like Shai who plausibly had an opportunity to ingest lerasium and become Mistborn, but she passed it up, could she create a stamp that makes her temporarily a Mistborn? Brandon Sanderson She would have to have access to enough Investiture to make that happen. The stamp saying, "Hey, I'm a Mistborn!" doesn't actually give her the Investiture to do that. She could rewrite her past so that she took that bead. She would not actually be able to use the power, until she got an infusion of Investiture, which could be done with a stamp in the right manner, but most of the time you're gonna have to have some external source. Basically you're gonna have to take a hit of Investiture, a large amount of it, and then use the stamp, and then it will feed on that to change you into basically any of the other magics. Aneesh Stormlight? Brandon Sanderson If you could get a hit of Stormlight, that'd work. The problem is, Stormlight's not easy to get off of Roshar, and it still is technically keyed. You could get it a lot more easily-- Stormlight would work fairly well, but what you really want is some pure, unkeyed Dor. That stuff, you could do all kinds of things with. But, you know, it's kinda dangerous. But that's the stuff you're gonna want, or something like unto it. Now that I think about it, using Forgery to temporarily create a Fullborn Feruchemist + Mistborn and then create some Bands of Mourning seems possible (and extremely broken.) Tldr; the vast majority of the power in the Metallic Arts isn't stored in the Metalborn themselves, and that's why there's no mention of heightenings on Scadrial. Power is drawn from Preservation to fuel Allomancy. Even though a jar of unkeyed Dor has far more Investiture in it than even a lerasium Mistborn, it's extremely difficult to Command the investiture to overwrite your spiritweb and make an absurdly powerful Mistborn. What you should really worry about is Feruchemists figuring out how to use unkeyed Dor to fuel their Feruchemy, like how Compounding uses Allomancy to fuel Feruchemy. Get a jar of Dor, and create a source of Feruchemic power that would have taken years to generate! It isn't a constant source of power like Compounding is, it's far, FAR more accessible, as you'd only have to be a Feruchemist instead of a Twinborn Compounder. I see it as entirely possible that the number of Compounders that have existed ever by the end of era 2 to be countable on one hand. 1
MischiefIsMe He/They Posted December 2, 2024 Posted December 2, 2024 I think the core of this post is really interesting, but the phrasing being used is confusing. You keep using the word Heightening to describe general levels of Investiture but per the Coppermind "Heightening is a term used to refer to the different levels of power an Awakener may attain. By obtaining more Breaths, an Awakener can increase their level of Heightening, gaining more power and abilities." [source] That same page also says Heightenings are related to BioChroma and the Shard Endowment. As such, they are part of a specific magic system/manifestation of Investiture that is directly related to Endowment and her Shardworld, Nalthis. There are many common phenomena that occur when someone has a lot of Investiture, but those effects tend to be "filtered" (not the best word but it's the best one I can think of atm) by the magic system through which they have access to that Investiture. So, trying to apply Heightenings as a general measure of Investiture rather than an aspect of a singular magic system doesn't seem like it would work on principle. Heightenings relate specifically to BioChromatic Breaths and not any other form of Investiture I do really like the emphasis on comparing high levels of Investiture in different systems, though! It's super interesting seeing what other people think about the nature of the Cosmere especially on topics like this that I likely wouldn't have thought of on my own
Treamayne Posted December 2, 2024 Posted December 2, 2024 (edited) 2 hours ago, MischiefIsMe said: I think the core of this post is really interesting, but the phrasing being used is confusing. You keep using the word Heightening to describe general levels of Investiture but per the Coppermind "Heightening is a term used to refer to the different levels of power an Awakener may attain. By obtaining more Breaths, an Awakener can increase their level of Heightening, gaining more power and abilities." [source] That same page also says Heightenings are related to BioChroma and the Shard Endowment. As such, they are part of a specific magic system/manifestation of Investiture that is directly related to Endowment and her Shardworld, Nalthis. But that is the problem being discussed. We know these effects are Realmatic (Influenced by Shards, but not only of Shards) because we have seen some of these effects through other means (Rysn and her Dawnshard; Elantrians suffused with Dor; even, to a small extent, a Radiant holding Light) but "Heightening" is the only term we have for the Effect. So, it becomes an exercise in trying to figure out which "Nalthian Heightenings" are true Realmatic Effects (universal, even if the permutations differ in some details) and which are specific to Endownment's implementation of that Realmatic Effect. For example, we do know that Agelessness is a Realmatic "Heightening" - because it has been verified for Elantrians and DawnVessels. We also see some sensory changes as occuring in more than one instance - but based on current data Rysn experienced changes to Visual Color Recognition and Taste (not Sound), and Awakeners experience Color and Sound (but not taste). So, is Sensory Changes the Realmatic Heightening, and which senses become affected based on the Shardic Heightening? Is it actually all senses, but we just have not seen enough data to identify other examples (Vivenna's experience with fruit juice may imply invetiture-enhanced taste - or could just be the new girl having something she likes for the first time). Also, please remember that many of these "Shardworld Specific" terms will, as we enter future Cosmere eras, become universal terms. Awakened, in YNP, does not mean Breaths at all because "Awakened" by that time in the Cosmere has come to mean "an object gaining sentience or sapience through investiture" (rather than remaining specific to "Animated by investing with BioChromatic Breath"). Spoiler Argent Staying with Yumi, since we're asking the big questions here. I want to talk about the big machine, the father machine. Brandon Sanderson Yes. Argent There are some really interesting what feel like intentional parallels between it and Nightblood. Brandon Sanderson Yes. Argent There's smoke involved, there's eating of souls, there's a whole bunch of things. So what I do want to ask is: one, was the father machine Awakened using Breaths, using Nalthian Awakening? Or are you using Awakening as Lightweaving or Bondsmithing which is an overarching system in the Cosmere? Brandon Sanderson It's the second. This wouldn't exist in the pre-space-age as much; by space age there's a certain terminology that is going between... basically it's starting with the arcanists and moving to the general population. What certain themes in the Cosmere magics mean. And so when Hoid says "this is an Awakened machine" his audience understands what that means. It does not necessarily mean Breaths Awaken, but Breaths are one of the main ways that people see things be Awakened. You should be noticing those parallels, but that's a term that in the Cosmere is becoming genericized to mean un-living object being given some measure of sentience and even sapience by application of Investiture, Commands, and these sorts of things. By this point they've all interacted with various Awakened machines of sorts in the future Cosmere. They know what this means. They've talked to an Awakened computer. Argent Interesting! Very interesting! That's what I was hoping you would answer. Because Awakening is such a cool term for Awakening an object, right! One notable difference between the father machine and Nightblood other than them using different magic systems to be Awakened is that the Machine was able to somehow draw people's souls at a distance, which seems EXTREMELY broken to me. Brandon Sanderson Yeah. I had to let... This is going to be a pretty special circumstance for this book. But yes. It is pretty broken. You wouldn't want this to be... this could be very dangerous in the wrong hands. Don't expect this to be very commonly used in the Cosmere. Argent Was that a side effect of the magic system that was used to Awaken the machine, or was there something else going on? Brandon Sanderson This is a side effect of what Virtuosity did and the bit of Virtuosity in all the people allowing the Machine to have enough of a plausible Connection to them to draw upon them. Argent Ok. Interesting. I will think about this while I pass the ball back to Matt. Brandon Sanderson Yeah. This is me pushing just a little bit hard on the boundaries of what is possible. It is possible, but it it is pushing further than I normally would on the bounds of what that can do. Shardcast Interview (July 30, 2023) Raoden, in Elantris, Lightweaves his Kaloo illusion. Hoid Lightweaves the Wandersail Story in WoK. Neither of those used the Surge of Illumination, as expressed in the Radiant Bond of Roshar. Odium both Soothes and Riots Moash and the Fused - but does not use Brass or Zinc to do so. Effects can be Realmatic - with Shardic permutations based on the source of power and investiture used. Hope that helps. Edited December 2, 2024 by Treamayne SPAG 2
Trusk'our he/him Posted December 2, 2024 Author Posted December 2, 2024 8 hours ago, scientificmotif said: We've seen Allomancy powered by other Investiure before. However, you're talking about Heightenings, so I assume you're talking about making the Mistborn themselves more powerful (Being able to pull more power from Preservation) It's not exactly as simple as "Give a person some Investiture and they become more powerful Allomancers." Burning pure Dor doesn't make you a more powerful Allomancer, for example, it's just extremely efficient fuel. My thinking is more along the lines of using Breath to Awaken a Hemalurgic spike. Give the Breath the Command to boost the other Investiture's abilities. Given that Vivenna can stuff around 600 Breaths in a shawl, charging a single Inquisitor-sized spike with a few hundred BEUs should be within the realm of plausibility. If a Lerasium Mistborn's entire repertoire of powers is indeed lesser than the First Heightening, gaining Lord Ruler levels of Allomancy or beyond should be easy compared to the power it would yeild. Even just one spike with one power would be extremely impressive if this were possible, I would think. Which is a big part of why I suspect Metalborn powers must require a larger level of Investiture to function: it's just too easy to supercharge otherwise. This is just my current reasoning on the matter, so perhaps this will be proven incorrect as we get more books.
Treamayne Posted December 2, 2024 Posted December 2, 2024 17 minutes ago, Trusk'our said: My thinking is more along the lines of using Breath to Awaken a Hemalurgic spike. Give the Breath the Command to boost the other Investiture's abilities. I really doubt this could work. Awakening is using the breath of Life to allow an object to take actions of life - dumping breath into an already invested spike is hard. Dumping breath with a Command that has nothing to do with life. . . Hemalurgic Charges are SR properties. Breath is a PR property. Not impossible, because Lifeless Commands turn the breath into a fake "Soul" (spiritweb?) which is in-part why those breaths cannot be recovered. Ditto Nightblood's Type IV awakening. But normal Awakening does not cross realms and in this theoretical case, the Hemalurgic Charge is already the Spike's "soul" (spiritweb) and if your theory even worked, it would be more likely to replace that, not supplement it. 22 minutes ago, Trusk'our said: Which is a big part of why I suspect Metalborn powers must require a larger level of Investiture to function it's the difference between being Saturated with Investiture or simply processing it. A metalborn burning metal is a higher level of Invested - but that investiture is not saturating the metalborn, it leaves as soon as it moves through them and does "work." Whereas Vin burning the Mists was pushing so much investiture it "ripped" her. "Heightenings" are, I think, much more about static investiture in a body, than kinetic investiture doing things n stuff. Spoiler Quote Kaimipono Allomancy is fueled by Preservation's body? How exactly does that work? And how does that interact with Atium—it's fueled by both gods' bodies? Brandon Sanderson The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms. Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future. In the case of concentrated Preservation, it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.) So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak—though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that—using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself—to fuel Allomancy. Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body. It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose. That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive. Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008) Quote Brandon Sanderson The longest lasting of the Allomantic metals is actually copper, which is used by Smokers to hide Allomancy. Tin is second, however. Steel and Iron are actually rather quick, but since they're generally used in bursts, it's hard to notice. Both brass and zinc are medium, as is bronze. Pewter burns the fastest of the basic eight, though atium and gold both burn faster than it does. In my mind, it's related to how much 'work' the metal has to do. That's why pewter, steel, and iron burn so quickly. A lot of weight and power is getting thrown around, while copper only has to do something simple. However, I never really set any of these things hard-fast. And, only atium is really all that rare. Because of the value of the metals, the noble houses expended a lot of resources finding and exploiting mines to produce the metals. This resulted in a slightly higher value for most of them as opposed to our world, but not really noticeably so, because Allomancers really don't need that much metal. Even fast burning metals, like pewter, are generally only swallowed in very small amounts. (i.e. A small bit goes a long way.) TWG Posts (July 31, 2006)
MischiefIsMe He/They Posted December 2, 2024 Posted December 2, 2024 59 minutes ago, Treamayne said: Also, please remember that many of these "Shardworld Specific" terms will, as we enter future Cosmere eras, become universal terms. Awakened, in YNP, does not mean Breaths at all because "Awakened" by that time in the Cosmere has come to mean "an object gaining sentience or sapience through investiture" (rather than remaining specific to "Animated by investing with BioChromatic Breath"). I am aware that we've seen several universal forces/phenomena associated with Investiture and that there will be generalized terms, but if Heightening becomes one, it will likely only refer to number of BEUs if anything but I doubt that it will. As to which effects are related to holding huge amounts of Investiture, I bet anything that doesn't directly relate to Breath and Nalthian Awakening is what you're calling a Realmatic Effect just in an order that makes sense given the natural pathways of Investiture on Nalthis. So things like enhanced perception, agelessness, resistance to disease, life/investiture sense are all things that can and do happen via other pathways but just because they share a common result does not mean they have the same mechanisms or require equivalent amounts of power. 26 minutes ago, Trusk'our said: My thinking is more along the lines of using Breath to Awaken a Hemalurgic spike. Give the Breath the Command to boost the other Investiture's abilities. Given that Vivenna can stuff around 600 Breaths in a shawl, charging a single Inquisitor-sized spike with a few hundred BEUs should be within the realm of plausibility. If a Lerasium Mistborn's entire repertoire of powers is indeed lesser than the First Heightening, gaining Lord Ruler levels of Allomancy or beyond should be easy compared to the power it would yeild. Even just one spike with one power would be extremely impressive if this were possible, I would think. Which is a big part of why I suspect Metalborn powers must require a larger level of Investiture to function: it's just too easy to supercharge otherwise. This is just my current reasoning on the matter, so perhaps this will be proven incorrect as we get more books. This is a really interesting thought experiment but I'm not sure how feasible it would be. Not only is a hemalurgic spike metal, and thus very difficult to awaken anyways, but it's also already Invested which would make it even more so. And I'm not sure if you could awaken a spike and then use it for hemalurgy. Also, given that humankind on Scadrial was created directly from the Shards of Preservation and Ruin, I'd bet they have a lot of innate Investiture which may mean they have more BEUs per capita than even Nalthians.
Treamayne Posted December 2, 2024 Posted December 2, 2024 2 minutes ago, MischiefIsMe said: what you're calling a Realmatic Effect just in an order that makes sense given the natural pathways of Investiture on Nalthis. So things like enhanced perception, agelessness, resistance to disease, life/investiture sense are all things that can and do happen via other pathways but just because they share a common result does not mean they have the same mechanisms or require equivalent amounts of power. Are you simply restating what I said to be sure you understood my point? The words imply you agree, but the tone implies you disagree. Regardless of your intent, I think it sounds like we agree. Certain effects exist due to levels of investiture. RIght now, the only ones that are named and defined are from Nalthis. In the future universal effects may or may not be continued to be called Heightenings - regardless of source or details. We won't know until we get there - Aux's comment in TSM is ambiguous at best (Ch 24): Spoiler He rushed away, Rebeke close behind. Before going to his quarters, he asked Rebeke for permission, then stopped beside her hovercycle and pulled out its sunheart. Hmmm… Aux said. I’d guess around two hundred BEUs in this one. Far less than what powers a full ship. Still, on a lot of planets, that would be a wealth of Investiture. Enough to reach the Second Heightening, and here it’s used for simple locomotion. “At a steep cost,” Nomad said, heading toward his quarters
MischiefIsMe He/They Posted December 2, 2024 Posted December 2, 2024 35 minutes ago, Treamayne said: Are you simply restating what I said to be sure you understood my point? The words imply you agree, but the tone implies you disagree. Regardless of your intent, I think it sounds like we agree. Certain effects exist due to levels of investiture. RIght now, the only ones that are named and defined are from Nalthis. In the future universal effects may or may not be continued to be called Heightenings - regardless of source or details. We won't know until we get there - Aux's comment in TSM is ambiguous at best (Ch 24): Hide contents He rushed away, Rebeke close behind. Before going to his quarters, he asked Rebeke for permission, then stopped beside her hovercycle and pulled out its sunheart. Hmmm… Aux said. I’d guess around two hundred BEUs in this one. Far less than what powers a full ship. Still, on a lot of planets, that would be a wealth of Investiture. Enough to reach the Second Heightening, and here it’s used for simple locomotion. “At a steep cost,” Nomad said, heading toward his quarters I think so??? Maybe??? maybe we both got our wires crossed a little at some point lol
scientificmotif Posted December 2, 2024 Posted December 2, 2024 1 hour ago, Trusk'our said: My thinking is more along the lines of using Breath to Awaken a Hemalurgic spike. Give the Breath the Command to boost the other Investiture's abilities. Given that Vivenna can stuff around 600 Breaths in a shawl, charging a single Inquisitor-sized spike with a few hundred BEUs should be within the realm of plausibility. If a Lerasium Mistborn's entire repertoire of powers is indeed lesser than the First Heightening, gaining Lord Ruler levels of Allomancy or beyond should be easy compared to the power it would yeild. Even just one spike with one power would be extremely impressive if this were possible, I would think. Which is a big part of why I suspect Metalborn powers must require a larger level of Investiture to function: it's just too easy to supercharge otherwise. This is just my current reasoning on the matter, so perhaps this will be proven incorrect as we get more books. So, Allomancy is weird. It's been stated in WoBs that your SDNA determines your power in Allomancy and Lerasium overwrites your SDNA, but it's also been stated that Lerasium increases your Connection to Preservation and that increases your power in Allomancy. And also burning more than one Lerasium bead alloyed with a metal (With different metals in alloy) in succession still results in being able to burn 1 metal? And burning them at the same time lets you burn 2 metals? I really, really want to know how it works. I'm very confused. Suffice it to say that it's more than Investiture in the soul that creates power in Allomancy, so it'd be extremely difficult to hack magic systems to increase Allomantic power, if not impossible. The Set are trying to use Investiture (From stealing parts of people's souls without killing them) and somehow convert it into Allomantic power, but they really can't figure it out. There's more to Invested Arts than having Investiture. You need a way to do something with it.
Trusk'our he/him Posted December 2, 2024 Author Posted December 2, 2024 (edited) 2 hours ago, scientificmotif said: And also burning more than one Lerasium bead alloyed with a metal (With different metals in alloy) in succession still results in being able to burn 1 metal? And burning them at the same time lets you burn 2 metals? I really, really want to know how it works. I'm very confused. Lerasium functions by editing your Spiritweb, grafting on extra Connections and Investiture. In its base form, it Invests you with Preservation's power, making you an Allomancer. This is a side-effect apparently, and while a pre-existing Allomancer burning it would have their base Allomancy added onto, they would also see some other result. Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/270-the-hero-of-ages-annotations/#e7708 Brandon Sanderson Chapter Thirty-Eight Preservation's Power All right, so maybe I lied about there only being three magic systems in this book. It comes down to how you term the powers of Preservation and Ruin, who kind of blanket the entire system. There are a lot of things going on here, and—well, the truth is I don't want to mention all of them, for fear of spoiling future books. However, I'll give you a few rules to apply. First, to these forces, energy and mass are the same thing. So, their power can take physical shape—as Preservation's did in the bead of metal Elend ate. Second, there is a bit of Preservation inside of all the people—and it's this that allows the people to perform Allomancy. It needs to be awakened and stirred to be of use, but when it is, a proper metal can draw forth more of Preservation's power. It's like the metal attunes the bit within the person, allowing it to act as a catalyst to grab more power. Allomancy is not fueled by metal; it is fueled by Preservation. The metal is the means by which a person can access that fuel, however. If there were another way to access it, then the metal wouldn't be needed. Preservation's touch on people differs. Some have more, some have less. This doesn't make them better or worse people—indeed, some most touched by Preservation have been among the worst people in the world. As Ruin later points out, there is a difference between being evil and being destructive. Regardless, if a person can get more Preservation into them, they become better Allomancers. Hence Elend becoming a Mistborn. Like all people, he had the potential within him—it was just too small of a potential to be awakened through normal means. That little jolt of Preservation's body, however, expanded and awakened his Allomancy. As a tidbit, that was a side effect of what that bead of metal did. It wasn't the main purpose of the bead, and if another Allomancer were to burn it, it would do something else. Burning pieces of Lerasium alloyed differently to grant different powers won't remove the previous powers. i.e. you can become an Allomancer capable of burning two, three, four, or any number of metals you choose so long as you burn the right Lerasium alloys. It's an add on, not an overwrite, in some ways comparable to Hemalurgic spikes. Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/294-17th-shard-interview/#e10116 17th Shard If a Mistborn burns lerasium, as in, not just ingests it, what effect would it grant Allomantically? Brandon Sanderson That is a RAFO. It would do something, but the thing you've gotta remember is that, when ingesting lerasium for the first time and gaining the powers, your body is actually burning it. Think of lerasium as a metal anyone can burn. Does that make sense? By burning it you gain access to those powers. It rewrites your spiritual DNA, and there are ways to do really cool things with lerasium that I don't see how anyone would know. Were most Mistborn to just burn it, it would rewrite their genetic code to increase their power as an Allomancer. Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/61-firefight-seattle-ubooks-signing/#e1304 Shardlet If Vin and Elend hypothetically each blindly ingested equivalently sized beads of lerasium, would Vin be a stronger Mistborn than Elend, or would they be equal? Brandon Sanderson Yes, Vin would be stronger. It is additive, not just an overwrite. The same thing happens with Hemalurgy; with Hemalurgy when you’re spiking someone’s soul, you’re ripping off a piece and adding it. For what it's worth, I think Allomancy essentially functions by having a portion of Preservation's Investiture within the Allomancer bond the Shard of Preservation by Snapping. This bond is the Connection that Lerasium forges, and with the additional Innate Investiture present in the Spiritweb, programmed with Allomancy's Intent, the Allomancer can trade metals for kinetic Investiture like a strange form of the Luhel bond. Feruchemists aren't seen Snapping, probably because they don't need a bond to an external source of Investiture. They just use their own soul, mind, and body. 2 hours ago, scientificmotif said: The Set are trying to use Investiture (From stealing parts of people's souls without killing them) and somehow convert it into Allomantic power, but they really can't figure it out. I suspect the reason some of the Set's experimental spikes were able to function, albeit erratically, was because they did, technically, have some programmed function. What kind of Allomancer you'll be is part of what your born, with, not what you get after Snapping, so that should still be susceptible to spiking. The lack of sufficient bonding from Snapping, Identity contamination separating the charges, and various powers stolen with incorrect metals probably prevented this from working well though. Identity decay or repeated Intent from the spike bearers may have allowed a few functional powers to eventually emerge, but having so many separate powers in one vessel with no coordination probably led to them being drowned out eventually, like how Resonances dissappear with too many sources, or medallions being unable bear more than a few powers at once. This is all speculation though, so please don't take it as being set in steel. 4 hours ago, Treamayne said: I really doubt this could work. Awakening is using the breath of Life to allow an object to take actions of life - dumping breath into an already invested spike is hard. Dumping breath with a Command that has nothing to do with life. . . Hemalurgic Charges are SR properties. Breath is a PR property. Not impossible, because Lifeless Commands turn the breath into a fake "Soul" (spiritweb?) which is in-part why those breaths cannot be recovered. Ditto Nightblood's Type IV awakening. But normal Awakening does not cross realms and in this theoretical case, the Hemalurgic Charge is already the Spike's "soul" (spiritweb) and if your theory even worked, it would be more likely to replace that, not supplement it. That's a fair takeaway. I think it's still fairly plausible, as we know Breath is more malleable than most manifestations of Investiture. Mostly you just need a way to shape it right, to program it, I think. And what better way to do that than Commanding it to replicate the narrowly defined functions of a pre-existing slice of Spiritweb contained within a spike? What's more, the spike does have some semblance of life already. It contains a functional piece of Spiritweb, a piece of life if you will, which gives the Breath a pattern to follow. It's still metal, which makes the process much harder, and it's Investiture would resist Awakening, but Hemalurgic spikes aren’t terribly Invested to begin with, at least not in most circumstances. Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/69-shadows-of-self-release-party/#e5915 clyguy Could you Awaken a Hemalurgic spike and put it in somebody, and would that have crazy effects? Brandon Sanderson That would have crazy effects. And it would be very hard. Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/217-salt-lake-city-signing/#e7299 I've got a list of various Cosmere bits of metal and I was wondering if you would rank them from like one to ten or just easy to difficult on how hard it would be to steelpush on them. So with one being just a regular coin, ten being like when the Lord Ruler was moving bits of glass on the floor, so like metal inside a person's body. Brandon Sanderson It depends on how strong the Investiture in them is. Questioner Is that gonna be the answer for all of these? Brandon Sanderson Probably! Questioner How about a spike charged with Hemalurgy? Brandon Sanderson A spike charged with Hemalurgy... that depends on... Questioner Not in a person. Brandon Sanderson Depends on how strong, yeah, a spike is moderately, (in the realm of these kinds of things) moderately easy to push on because a spike does not rip off very much Investiture. Only enough to short circuit the soul, and less it over time. I would put that at the bottom, with the top being very hard, to be one of the easier things. <redacted> The benefits, if they do indeed boost Allomancy, would probably be worth the cost, at least as I see it. Edited December 2, 2024 by Trusk'our
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