Harmonium being split

[Through The Living Grub He/Him]

My friend told me this theory, or we came up with it together (I don't remember) but they don't have an account so I'll post it.

Can a Shardblade split Harmonium? I've heard things about how Wax made Lerasium because he intended to not do anything with it. He simply wanted to know if it could be done. When the kandra did it, they wanted to use the Lerasium so they instead got Atium. So Intent matters in the metal you get.

Instead of Trellium, could a Sharblade be used as the thing splitting the metal? I know cutting the metal when it is heated only produces Harmonium, but the special properties of a Blade could split them. I'm not to sure, anyone have ideas on this?

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

38 minutes ago, Xiahida said:

My friend told me this theory, or we came up with it together (I don't remember) but they don't have an account so I'll post it.

Can a Shardblade split Harmonium? I've heard things about how Wax made Lerasium because he intended to not do anything with it. He simply wanted to know if it could be done. When the kandra did it, they wanted to use the Lerasium so they instead got Atium. So Intent matters in the metal you get.

Instead of Trellium, could a Sharblade be used as the thing splitting the metal? I know cutting the metal when it is heated only produces Harmonium, but the special properties of a Blade could split them. I'm not to sure, anyone have ideas on this?

I don't believe so, no, because Honor's Investiture is geared towards binding things together, not splitting them apart.

That said...a hyper-concentrated fabrial designed to mechanize, focus, and augment the surge of Division almost certainly could!

[Trusk'our he/him]

31 minutes ago, hwiles said:

I don't believe so, no, because Honor's Investiture is geared towards binding things together, not splitting them apart.

That said...a hyper-concentrated fabrial designed to mechanize, focus, and augment the surge of Division almost certainly could!

I don't think Honor's Intent would forbid Shardblades from doing this.

The Surge of Division itself is a part of his magic system, yet it's basically the opposite of building bonds. The Intent of the Shard doesn't limit the functions of the Investiture so much as it determines how it's obtained. 

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/189-rfantasy-ama-2011/#e4032

Chaos

Allomancy provides many very dramatic effects, which some have noted is not very much like Preservation. Could you walk me through how Allomancy is of Preservation, though it does dramatic, dynamic things?

Brandon Sanderson

One of the 'basics' of the magic in all of the worlds is that the energy of Shards can fuel all kinds of interactions, not just interactions based on their personality/role. I did this because otherwise, the Magics would all be extremely limited.

The 'role' of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do. So, in Preservation's case, the magic is a gift--allowing a person to preserve their own strength, and rely upon the strength granted by the magic. While Hemalurgy has a huge cost, ending in net entropy.

 

1 hour ago, Xiahida said:

My friend told me this theory, or we came up with it together (I don't remember) but they don't have an account so I'll post it.

Can a Shardblade split Harmonium? I've heard things about how Wax made Lerasium because he intended to not do anything with it. He simply wanted to know if it could be done. When the kandra did it, they wanted to use the Lerasium so they instead got Atium. So Intent matters in the metal you get.

Instead of Trellium, could a Sharblade be used as the thing splitting the metal? I know cutting the metal when it is heated only produces Harmonium, but the special properties of a Blade could split them. I'm not to sure, anyone have ideas on this?

That's a pretty interesting idea. O think it could be plausible. 

Harmonium's spiritual component is in conflict with itself, so pulling it apart like Wax does before shearing through it with a Shardblade I think could separate the spiritual aspects and create Atium and Lerasium, though I think it would still explode.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Xiahida said:

My friend told me this theory, or we came up with it together (I don't remember) but they don't have an account so I'll post it.

Can a Shardblade split Harmonium? I've heard things about how Wax made Lerasium because he intended to not do anything with it. He simply wanted to know if it could be done. When the kandra did it, they wanted to use the Lerasium so they instead got Atium. So Intent matters in the metal you get.

Instead of Trellium, could a Sharblade be used as the thing splitting the metal? I know cutting the metal when it is heated only produces Harmonium, but the special properties of a Blade could split them. I'm not to sure, anyone have ideas on this?

Firstly, Shardblades don't repulse investiture like Trellium does. Secondly, Harmonium is as investiture dense as a Shardblade is (because it's a physical solid manifestation of investiture - a god metal) and thus it would fully stop a Shardblade cut, just like another Shardblade does. A Shardblade wouldn't cut Harmonium spiritually, only physically and only when you heat it up to 3000 degrees (but using a Shardblade in this scenario is hard anyway). You wouldn't produce any Lerasium or Atium, you wouldn't produce any explosion, the only thing that would happen is you would separate Harmonium into two pieces, which would still be Harmonium - just like when Wax tried to cut it in half himself. TLM ch 15:

Quote

“Is that…?” Marasi asked.
“No,” Wax said. “If you cut it in half right now, when the metals cool you’ll just have two bits of harmonium."

 

[Through The Living Grub He/Him]

15 hours ago, alder24 said:

Firstly, Shardblades don't repulse investiture like Trellium does. Secondly, Harmonium is as investiture dense as a Shardblade is (because it's a physical solid manifestation of investiture - a god metal) and thus it would fully stop a Shardblade cut, just like another Shardblade does. A Shardblade wouldn't cut Harmonium spiritually, only physically and only when you heat it up to 3000 degrees (but using a Shardblade in this scenario is hard anyway). You wouldn't produce any Lerasium or Atium, you wouldn't produce any explosion, the only thing that would happen is you would separate Harmonium into two pieces, which would still be Harmonium - just like when Wax tried to cut it in half himself. TLM ch 15:

Quote

I feel like with the right Intent, you would split the Connection between Ruin and Preservation that is represented in Harmonium. Granted, it is very Investiture dense, but maybe the physical object doesn't have to be split, just the Connection between the two metals.

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

22 minutes ago, Xiahida said:

I feel like with the right Intent, you would split the Connection between Ruin and Preservation that is represented in Harmonium. Granted, it is very Investiture dense, but maybe the physical object doesn't have to be split, just the Connection between the two metals.

Intent matters with Godmetals when performing hemalurgic operations, definitely. Buuuut...a shardblade is a shardblade no matter who holds it. Connection "exists" at the SR level, which is not a place a Shardblade can normally ever reach or cut into. Nightblood has...sort of...demonstrated an ability to cut a person or object that deeply, but the process comes with severe consequences that would undermine what you're going for here (IE: induced annihilation events).

I expect that one could leverage the power of the surges mechanically (literally, just the Cosmere's physics) to induce specific forms of nuclear decay events in order to produce exotic atoms (which, if I understand correctly, is all that's really going on in lerasium production experiments), but shardblades just are not specialized the way that is being asked for.

Whether it would take a machine on the scale of a Large Hadron Collider or a simple desktop piece of equipment to perform the operation is up to your imagination to decide though.

Edited November 8, 2024 by Lewis Nethur

[alder24]

6 hours ago, Xiahida said:

I feel like with the right Intent, you would split the Connection between Ruin and Preservation that is represented in Harmonium. Granted, it is very Investiture dense, but maybe the physical object doesn't have to be split, just the Connection between the two metals.

The fact that it's a god metal will prevent a Shardblade from cutting its Connections - which truthfully I don't know how would that even work. Shardblade would just bounce off Harmonium.

Spoiler

Questioner

Since you have basically established that spren are at least to some extent alive, how is it possible for a Shardblade to not cut right through a living weapon, like Syl for example.

Brandon Sanderson

What you are seeing is: when they are pulling through into the Physical Realm they are creating something that is not 100% physical, not 100% metal, it's like an amalgamation of the two. And that is doing something very special that then prevents other things from cutting through it. It's specifically the way that it's happening. You could make this happen with other things too.

Another big part of it is the amount of Investiture. If something is highly Invested it's going to stop a Shardblade too, because the Investiture is gonna kinda bounce off of each other. It's theoretical, for instance, you could make a Hemalurgic spike that would stop a Shardblade...

So, Invest something highly and it will stop a Shardblade almost always. But, you can cut souls; they are highly Invested also. So you need something in the Physical Realm that is pulling power through from the other Realms.

Bonn Signing (May 15, 2019)

 

6 hours ago, Lewis Nethur said:

Buuuut...a shardblade is a shardblade no matter who holds it. Connection "exists" at the SR level, which is not a place a Shardblade can normally ever reach or cut into.

Shardblades cuts in all three realms - it always cuts the SR first (it cuts soul first when cutting living things). Shardblades can cut Connections. 

Spoiler

VindicationKnight

If a person in the cosmere built a fully sentient and sapient robot would that robot have a soul? How would it interact with Shardblades?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. It would interact with Shardblades the same way that spren do.

VindicationKnight

How does a Shardblade interact with a spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Shardblades cut on all three realms. I'm not going to say too much here, though I might note that it's possible a robot like you say would act more like Nightblood than anything else--depends on what is involved in the creation, and how you determine the difference between a robot and a golem for these purposes.

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 15, 2015)

[Sythrin]

On 11/7/2024 at 8:40 PM, Xiahida said:

Instead of Trellium, could a Sharblade be used as the thing splitting the metal? I know cutting the metal when it is heated only produces Harmonium, but the special properties of a Blade could split them. I'm not to sure, anyone have ideas on this?

I am not sure. It is not the ability of Trellium to split things, but the nature of Trellium itself. I believ it has to do with Trellium being standing against the other gods. There is a big part of its intent with being autonimous.

And dont forget, Shardblades while they have the ability to cut things, you dont have to forget that Investiture resist other investiture. Harmonium is a pure god metal and Shardblades are little bit less pure. While still made out of godmetal, it is stated that they are less invested than honorblades that are made out of pure god metal. But that could also be that Honor infused the honorblades with powers themselfs. So the last point is not that strong.

[Through The Living Grub He/Him]

1 hour ago, Sythrin said:

I am not sure. It is not the ability of Trellium to split things, but the nature of Trellium itself. I believ it has to do with Trellium being standing against the other gods. There is a big part of its intent with being autonimous.

I actually have an issue with Trellium splitting Harmonium. Its Intent is independence, and is repelled by other Investiture, so why is it that it's repelling effect does something that a simple knife can't? What I think is that the Harmonium is heated up so you are more pushing the two pieces apart rather than cutting, and the Blade is cutting the actual Connection between Preservation and Ruin in the metal.

 

1 hour ago, Sythrin said:

it is stated that they are less invested than honorblades that are made out of pure god metal.

Blades are Honor and Cultivation, while Harmonium is Ruin and Preservation, so they aren't a single God metal, but still only God Metals. This isn't Lerasium alloyed with something, it's the same scenario.

 

On 11/8/2024 at 2:17 PM, alder24 said:

it is stated that they are less invested than honorblades that are made out of pure god metal.

Sorry I am only now responding to this. The physical "splitting" is really just symbolic, I do realize the whole IrI rule (we should coin this as Investiture resists Investiture since it's used so much) The split would be more a side effect of the Connection being split. And why can't a Blade do what Trellium can randomly do?

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Sythrin said:

it is stated that they are less invested than honorblades that are made out of pure god metal.

Where was it said? I don't remember it.

16 minutes ago, Xiahida said:

Blades are Honor and Cultivation, while Harmonium is Ruin and Preservation, so they aren't a single God metal, but still only God Metals. This isn't Lerasium alloyed with something, it's the same scenario.

Shardblades are an alloy, Harmonium is not, it's one element, one god metal.

Spoiler

Alpharho

The metal of Shardblades. Cultivationspren versus honorspren, for example. Are they different metals?

Brandon Sanderson

No, but good question.

Alpharho

Are all orders the same alloy, essentially?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. There's a little asterisk on there, but not in the way you're asking... You could call those all the same alloy. Because the mixture to different spren is different, I think that you could argue that each one is its own alloy.

Alpharho

So, different proportions of tanavastium?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but it doesn't quite work that way with these magics, right? I'm going to say that's up to the individual cosmerologist who is in the world, the arcanist, defining it. You would be able to find enough differences to legitimately call them different alloys if you wanted to.

Alpharho

Would you say different ratios of the same two metals?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. They are not going to have a third one in them, if that's what you're asking. But it doesn't quite work that way. Like, if you were going to take brass, you could measure the exact percentage. In this case, it is a thing; it's not like you could divide it up and split them apart, because they are a thing. And that thing would be called one thing.

Alpharho

But you won't say what that thing is called?

Brandon Sanderson

No, I won't say what that thing is called. But I think you and the 17th Sharders and folks that are dividing them would prefer to call them ten different things, and I think their nomenclature would be relevant.

Skyward Denver signing (Nov. 15, 2018)

 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He said ettmetal is chemically reactive, not nuclear.

The longer answer makes it sound like Harmonium isn't a Lerasium/Atium alloy, but a whole new metal. He described it as "super-cesium," and that its volatility was based on electrons, not on protons or neutrons.

"It is not unstable, it is reactive. So it's like a "super-cesium". It reacts so violently..."

Footnote: Unspecified question by Pagerunner.
Arcanum Unbounded Hoboken signing (Dec. 3, 2016)

 

17 minutes ago, Xiahida said:

And why can't a Blade do what Trellium can randomly do?

Because Trellium repulses investiture while Shardblades just cut things. 

Axi are made out of mass, energy and investiture. Axion of Harmonium is made out of investiture of both Ruin and Preservation and they push on each other, which makes Harmonium unstable. Add Trellium which provides an additional pushing force and now the pushing force is strong enough to overcome the force that binds Axion together and Axion is broken in half - a fission reaction. Shardblades can't do that. I don't think it's about Connection at all, it's about the nature of fundamental particles and atoms in Cosmere that are made out of matter, energy and investiture, not just matter and energy like in our universe. 

Spoiler

Ironeyes

So harmonium, we have a working theory that the reason it's so volatile is because some of the subatomic particles are associated with Ruin and some of them are [of?] Preservation. Is that true?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, that's basically what's going on is that it's creating a very unstable metal. Now, it is in the nature of the Cosmere not a compound but an element. But, you could call it a subatomic particle sure. It's very volatile because it is in nature spiritually in contrast with itself. And so though it is a single element rather than a compound, the spiritual nature is not happy as it is, and you can set up in the physical realm, through reactivity things that would just rip it apart and really your energy is not, your energy in that is actually pulling from the Spiritual realm, and so that's why it can be so much more explosive than even the chemistry would account for.

Ironeyes

So it's not that the subatomic particles are invested, it's that they have a spiritual identity which causes them to...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Ironeyes

So then it's not creating an oxide because after the spiritual energy goes away from the explosion then it's a different metal, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Right, and...

Ironeyes

So you can't find harmonium oxide in the water afterwards.

Brandon Sanderson

Right right right right. Because it's not, it's, yeah. But you might be able to find something else, which is really relevant to the Cosmere. And to Scadrial.

Ironeyes

So the core elements, the core particles, having extra repulsion causes them to have a nuclear potential.

Brandon Sanderson

I would not call it nuclear because it's not the same exact thing. But there is a Cosmere equivalent. To - I mean, you could do nuclear power just the same in the Cosmere, but since we have a third kind of state of matter, right? Matter, energy, Investiture. You have a third axis that, you know, you can release energy from matter, you can release investiture from matter, and things like that. So it's similar, but following its own rules that I have a little more - that are controlled by me, right, that are built on this idea. So once you add *inaudible*, matter now can exist in this third state, you get all sorts of weird things, which one of the things that happens is, you can get an energy release in sort of the same way. A reaction, I'm not going to call it a nuclear reaction, but of the same vein.

Boskone 54 (Feb. 19, 2017)

 

[Sythrin]

40 minutes ago, alder24 said:

it is stated that they are less invested than honorblades that are made out of pure god metal.

I am hard at finding the quote. But I believe it was somewhere stated that it is a bit easier to steel push a shardblade than a honorblade. Even if the difference it minimal.

[Trusk'our he/him]

7 minutes ago, Sythrin said:

I am hard at finding the quote. But I believe it was somewhere stated that it is a bit easier to steel push a shardblade than a honorblade. Even if the difference it minimal.

Is it this WoB talking about Steelpushing Radiant blades vs Deadblades?

I think it's referring to there being more Investiture in a living blade because something is missing in Deadeyes.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/41-firefight-release-parDeadliest.

Questioner

So I have heard that it is harder to Push a Shardblade with Allomancy than it is a normal sword.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Is that true of both living and dead Shardblades?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Equally?

Brandon Sanderson

Uh, no.

Questioner

Okay, so it's even more difficult to Push one alive.

Brandon Sanderson

The thing-- An Invested object is more difficult with any of the magics. So, for instance, even a Feruchemical metalmind is going to be harder. Depends on how much it is Invested, and things like that. But, y'know, it can range from you barely notice it or don't even notice it to "Wow, that's hard to Push on". Same for a Hemalurgical spike, depending on how much Investiture is left over, how long has it been outside of a body, and things like that. Same thing Pushing on something inside a person's body, their Investiture is going to interfere with it.

Same thing, when you read White Sand, why a person slapping their hand through someone's stream of sand can throw off the entire creation of the sand mastery. It's just-- There's interference patterns, and things like that.

Questioner

And is that true of a Drab as well? Does the body affect--

Brandon Sanderson

The Drab is going to have less.

Questioner

So they just have less Investiture, but they still have some natural Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

They do still have some. They've lost their Breath but that isn't the entirety of the Investiture inside of them.

Almost all of the times we see Vin--in fact I think every time--we see Vin, or someone in the Mistborn books, Pushing or Pulling on an Invested metal they are either drawing on the mist or they're Elend or the Lord Ruler who have the enhanced power, or something like that. Or it's a duralumin Push, or its one of the Inquisitors who's had a spike-- y'know, and things like that, that've-- And so it's not something that you see done very often in the Mistborn books.

Rubix

I can actually confirm that's correct.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh you guys looked it up?

Rubix

I checked.

Brandon Sanderson

I mean it can be done. And depending on Investiture it can be not even that hard to do but--

I think it could also be reasoned that Honorblades are less Invested than Radiant Blades, as Radiant Shardblades have a consciousness residing within them on top of their functional Investiture. 

[Light In the Darkness]

On 11/18/2024 at 2:16 PM, Trusk'our said:

I think it could also be reasoned that Honorblades are less Invested than Radiant Blades, as Radiant Shardblades have a consciousness residing within them on top of their functional Investiture. 

This is a good argument, but honorblades are also more like unsealed metalminds - the energy that flows from the bond between a spren and a person is instead held directly in the honorblade, unlocked for any user. As a result, the honorblades have the investiture of being god-metal - assumedly approximately mass-equivalent to a shardblade - plus the semi-feruchemical charge of the power, which is significant, and adds more investiture than a person's consciousness seems to - a la Sunheart filled vs. unfilled, and Nightblood v. honorblade vs. nightblood v. thunderclast or person or Returned (I wonder if nightblood is a significant rational behind hoid's protections from yumi?)