IcedOutPenguin He/Him Posted November 6, 2024 Posted November 6, 2024 Alright, if you spiked someone using duralumin(steals connection) and then used the spike on a spren, would the spren be able to travel to the place/world from which the connection was stolen, and travel there in the cognitive realm? For example, if you spiked and stole someone's connection from Scadrial, and spiked an Inkspren, would the spren be able to travel to Scadrial? Also, if you were from another world, and you bonded a spren while on Roshar, would you be able to go back to your homeworld and maintain the bond, without using any dawnshard shenanigans(I'm looking at you, Nomad)? 3
Treamayne Posted November 6, 2024 Posted November 6, 2024 Welcome to the Shard. Please consider an Intro Post to let us know what you have or have-not read, so we can avoid spoilers if necessary. Also, please consider checking out the Sharder FAQ for some useful tips and tricks - as each forum is slightly different. Also, I have reported your post for you, since this is the wrong Forum. All book discussion belongs in the appropriate section (Blue Header Bars on the main forum page): "Cosmere" for those works, "Non-Cosmere" for everything else, "Spoiler Zone" for Preview material and new releases in their Spoiler Period, and "Related works" for Unpublished material and non-books (blogs, podcast, youtube released, etc.). Each forum also has a synopsis on the main page to help determine where you should be mosting a given topic. For example, you posted in: Spoiler Arcanum Discussion Discuss Arcanum, the Brandon Sanderson Archive, here. Arcanum is used to search for Words of Brandon - link (more details in the FAQ) When this should be in: Spoiler For References in any Cosmere work not in the spoiler period: Quote Cosmere Discussion Post discussion for the cosmere at large, Shards, Hoid, or general Arcanum Unbounded content here. All spoilers are allowed, except for upcoming releases/new releases, which have their own forums for discussion. Use book forums if your post only relates to a single series. 8 hours ago, IcedOutPenguin said: Alright, if you spiked someone using duralumin(steals connection) and then used the spike on a spren, would the spren be able to travel to the place/world from which the connection was stolen, and travel there in the cognitive realm? For example, if you spiked and stole someone's connection from Scadrial, and spiked an Inkspren, would the spren be able to travel to Scadrial? It is difficult-to-impossible to give a Spren an ability with Hemalurgy, partly because they are averse to the use of Hemalurgy in the first place, and partly because they are Splinters and already Comprised of investiture so gaining abilities with Hemalurgy does not work (or work well - depending on ability). WoBs: Spoiler Quote Questioner I was wondering if a Hemalurgic spike would take surges, or if it could take a spren bond? Would it interact at all for that? Brandon Sanderson Hemalurgy can interact with every one of the magics. I designed it specifically in writing Mistborn for future use. Because some of the magics are so limited by their planet I wanted one that transcended all of them and Hemalurgy is very important to the entire cosmere. Its invention is a thing of great power and great danger to the entire cosmere. Words of Radiance San Francisco signing (March 6, 2014) Quote Djarskublar (paraphrased) So I could be wrong, but a Hemalurgic spike, when you use it and become a savant it does damage to your Spiritweb, right? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Yes Hemalurgy always hurts you. Djarskublar (paraphrased) So say you go to Roshar and you give somebody a Hemalurgic spike for some Allomantic power, don't care what, and you use it to become a savant. Does that qualify them as 'broken' enough to become a Radiant? As long as they are also following the Ideals to attract a spren. Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) So becoming a Radiant is a spectrum of terminologies. It... probably, but you would have to find a Radiant who would, or a spren who would be willing to touch that, okay? It's going to drive them back. Djarskublar (paraphrased) So would it also affect your probability of becoming an Elantrian? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Yeah it would affect your ability to become anything else, yes. Djarskublar (paraphrased) Okay, so would it be a positive effect, negative effect...? Because I was like, it gives you cracks in your Spiritweb. Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) It does give you cracks in your Spiritweb. Djarskublar (paraphrased) So it's easier for Investiture to get in. Does it make it easier for other Investitures to get in? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) It would make it... yes. It's going to drive spren away. So what it's really going to make easier for, there, is spren and Investiture that doesn't care. Djarskublar (paraphrased) Okay, so Investiture doesn't care but spren do. Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Investiture might care depending on if it's part of a Shard-- if it has intent and things like this. Djarskublar (paraphrased) So it might let Stormlight in easier than a Breath, type thing. Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) I'm saying it might let Odium in easier than Syl. Because Syl would care, and Odium would not care. Djarskublar (paraphrased) Okay cool. Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Alright, so it could be a really bad thing, is what I'm trying to say to you. Djarskublar (paraphrased) Yeah that's cool. I just want to know more about gold too. Gold Allomancy too. Because Miles was doing some funky stuff. Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Miles was doing some funky stuff. Dark Talent release party (Sept. 6, 2016) Quote Mr. Suit Can spren - like Syl - be pierced by hemalurgic spike? Will it give some effect? Brandon Sanderson Yes. A spren can be pierced by Invested metal… Oversleep Could it be spiked? Brandon Sanderson Could a spike be used to give abilities to spren? That’s not going to work really well. Oversleep Could you steal from a spren? Brandon Sanderson Yes, you could steal the Investiture of a spren. Any Investiture can be used in a spike if you know what you’re doing. It’s actually not that hard to use one on a spren. Oversleep Because I thought you said Hemalurgy needs moving blood. Brandon Sanderson It needs, uh, yeah… there are places where spren have more physical form, more tangible form. Questioner Roshar? Brandon Sanderson No, no, no, not Roshar. Questioner The Cognitive Realm on Roshar? Brandon Sanderson Yeah, if you go to the Cognitive Realm on Roshar the spren act differently than they do. Oversleep So you could spike in the Cognitive Realm? Brandon Sanderson Yeah I’ll leave a RAFO with you on that. That’s your fifth one. So there are ways to get any Investiture into Hemalurgy if you know what you’re doing. But yeah this is not something that would be a common use for Hemalurgy. Let’s just say that. Oversleep We do not concern ourselves with common uses. Brandon Sanderson Yes, I know you don’t. But yeah Hemalurgy, when you’re spiking into somebody you… you’ll see when we get around to it. Kraków signing (March 21, 2017) Quote Also, if you were from another world, and you bonded a spren while on Roshar, would you be able to go back to your homeworld and maintain the bond, without using any dawnshard shenanigans(I'm looking at you, Nomad)? A worldhopper that becomes Radiant isn't prevented from going off-world (see Hoid in Mistborn Era 2) - it's the Spren that cannot leave Roshar (yet) which is why Design was not present in Era 2 as well. The Bond should remain, but the Spren will not - until we discover how Hoid was able to circumvent these restrictions by the time of YatNP. Hope that helps. 3
Sophrosyne He/any Posted November 6, 2024 Posted November 6, 2024 literally only commenting to say I hate YatNP as an acronym. But while I'm here I'll say Treamayne is 100% correct. Investiture resists investure and it's only investiture that has an issue leaving a world. 1
Treamayne Posted November 6, 2024 Posted November 6, 2024 12 minutes ago, Sophrosyne said: literally only commenting to say I hate YatNP as an acronym. I prefer YNP, but every time I use that people are like "What's this?" 1
alder24 Posted November 6, 2024 Posted November 6, 2024 13 hours ago, IcedOutPenguin said: Alright, if you spiked someone using duralumin(steals connection) and then used the spike on a spren, would the spren be able to travel to the place/world from which the connection was stolen, and travel there in the cognitive realm? For example, if you spiked and stole someone's connection from Scadrial, and spiked an Inkspren, would the spren be able to travel to Scadrial? I would argue that giving a spren Connection to another planet via Hemalurgy might actually work. But you would probably need to steal a very strong Connection, Connection so strong that it would normally prevent an individual from leaving their planet, someone who is limited in the same way as spren. This is because I think you would need to balance the strength of those two Connections, otherwise the Rosharan Connection will always win (yes, Connections can have different strengths). So unless you steal the Connection to Scadrial from Kelsier (who's just like a spren), this probably won't work. 13 hours ago, IcedOutPenguin said: Also, if you were from another world, and you bonded a spren while on Roshar, would you be able to go back to your homeworld and maintain the bond, without using any dawnshard shenanigans(I'm looking at you, Nomad)? 4 hours ago, Treamayne said: A worldhopper that becomes Radiant isn't prevented from going off-world (see Hoid in Mistborn Era 2) - it's the Spren that cannot leave Roshar (yet) which is why Design was not present in Era 2 as well. The Bond should remain, but the Spren will not - until we discover how Hoid was able to circumvent these restrictions by the time of YatNP. A Worldhopper Radiant won't be able to leave, just like their spren, because it's the Nahel Bond which binds them to the Rosharan System. That's why it was such a big deal when Hoid appeared on Roshar in Era 2. He did it with his bond and powers intact. Design was with him on Scadrial somewhere. RoW ch 13: Quote “The same limitation restrains people who are themselves heavily Invested. Radiants, spren—anyone Connected to Roshar is bound by these laws, and cannot travel farther than Ashyn or Braize. You are imprisoned here, Radiant.” Spoiler Matias_Leibo Are the Coinshots that helped Steris with getting people out of the flood zone, and who seemed rather concerned with whether she was following the law, actually Skybreakers? Brandon Sanderson Ah, hehehehehe. So, we'll just leave that one. So, how about this. At this point in continuity, a Skybreaker could not easily get off of Roshar. In fact, by this point in continuity, I believe (you can't hold me to this one too much) the only Radiant who's managed to get off of Roshar and maintain powers is Hoid. I believe that's the case. Hoid is weird. He also has lots of knowledge. He used a specific method to get... yeah, anyway. Don't hold me to that, but I think by this point he is the first to get out of system. Off-world doesn't really count because you can go to Braize or Ashyn. YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022) 3 hours ago, Sophrosyne said: literally only commenting to say I hate YatNP as an acronym. I just say Yumi. 1
Treamayne Posted November 6, 2024 Posted November 6, 2024 12 minutes ago, alder24 said: A Worldhopper Radiant won't be able to leave, just like their spren, because it's the Nahel Bond which binds them to the Rosharan System. Spoiler 13 minutes ago, alder24 said: “The same limitation restrains people who are themselves heavily Invested. Radiants, spren—anyone Connected to Roshar is bound by these laws, and cannot travel farther than Ashyn or Braize. You are imprisoned here, Radiant.” Pardon me if I do not take unreliable narrator Mraize at his word. We also have this WoB: Spoiler tskyeguye From Rysn's observations in the epilogue, it seems like she has a lot of the same aspects of a Fifth Heightening/Returned at the least. Is this because her Dawnshard is particularly connected to Endowment or because the effects of a certain level of Investment result in similar effects? Brandon Sanderson The latter. Skrimyt Interesting. So are actively Surgebinding Radiants or metal-burning Allomancers just not Invested enough to gain those passive effects, or do they not experience perfect pitch/color/etc. because their Investiture is just not as tightly bound to their Spiritweb as Endowment's Breaths or a Dawnshard would be? Brandon Sanderson Be aware that the two groups you mention don't generally hold much Investiture themselves, at least not in large quantities over time. More in Surgebinding. Almost none in Allomancy. But RAFO to specifics. Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020) We do not have published confirmation that a Radiant cannot leave the Rosharan system (or if they did, what would happen to their Spren and Bond), nor do we have confirmation that Design was on Scadrial (only that Hoid was there and did not break his bond by being there, per your referenced WoB). It's okay that we have different interpretations and opinions - the answer is not yet confirmed in any non-Hoid/non-corner-case way based on current available (non-preview) material. 1
alder24 Posted November 6, 2024 Posted November 6, 2024 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Treamayne said: Pardon me if I do not take unreliable narrator Mraize at his word. We also have this WoB: Reveal hidden contents tskyeguye From Rysn's observations in the epilogue, it seems like she has a lot of the same aspects of a Fifth Heightening/Returned at the least. Is this because her Dawnshard is particularly connected to Endowment or because the effects of a certain level of Investment result in similar effects? Brandon Sanderson The latter. Skrimyt Interesting. So are actively Surgebinding Radiants or metal-burning Allomancers just not Invested enough to gain those passive effects, or do they not experience perfect pitch/color/etc. because their Investiture is just not as tightly bound to their Spiritweb as Endowment's Breaths or a Dawnshard would be? Brandon Sanderson Be aware that the two groups you mention don't generally hold much Investiture themselves, at least not in large quantities over time. More in Surgebinding. Almost none in Allomancy. But RAFO to specifics. Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020) We do not have published confirmation that a Radiant cannot leave the Rosharan system (or if they did, what would happen to their Spren and Bond), nor do we have confirmation that Design was on Scadrial (only that Hoid was there and did not break his bond by being there, per your referenced WoB). It's okay that we have different interpretations and opinions - the answer is not yet confirmed in any non-Hoid/non-corner-case way based on current available (non-preview) material. I was saying that Radiants are bound to Roshar due to their Nahel Bond, not just because of how invested they are. In Yumi Design said that strong Connections rarely span interstellar distances, so I think it's reasonable to assume that due to their shared bond (through which they would inherit spren's binding Connection to Roshar), Radiant won't be able to leave without breaking their bond. We may argue if Mraize's words were to be trusted, but the WoB said Hoid maintained his powers, which means he has them and can use them, which means Design has to be with him on Scadrial. Yumi ch 21: Quote “The theory that you’re from that other world —the one that orbits with this one strangely nearby—is solid. You could be from somewhere farther out, I guess, but Connection on this level rarely spans that distance. It was, for example, super hard for me to leave my homeworld, given my Connection to it.” Edit: WoB confirming what I said: Spoiler Questioner If Hoid were to leave the Rosharan system, would that kill his spren? And would he still be able to use his Radiant powers? Brandon Sanderson As currently understood by the mechanics of the cosmere, he would just not be able to leave without breaking the bond to that spren. Breaking that bond wouldn’t necessarily kill the spren, but he would not be able to leave with the spren. You have seen him off-world post-Stormlight Five. So I’ll leave that to you. But he is trying to figure out how that would not necessarily have to be that way. Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022) Edited November 6, 2024 by alder24 1
Treamayne Posted November 6, 2024 Posted November 6, 2024 4 minutes ago, alder24 said: but the WoB said Hoid maintained his powers, which means he has them and can use them, which means Design has to be with him on Scadrial. I can see that as one interpretation - but I disagree that it is the only interpretation. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm saying it is also possible (based on the way those two WoBs are worded): Hoid left without breaking the bond or killing Design, but Design stayed on Roshar Hoid left without Design, but Design (and their bond) recovered as soonas he returned to Roshar. Based on those - the confirmed facts are simply: Hoid left Roshar Hoid did not kill Design or break his bond to do so Hoid's special Whereas non-confirmed theories: Design was on Scadrial (or Scadrian Shadesmar) Hoid had access to Rosharan Lightweaving and Soulcasting on Scadrial Hoid's other many investitures or abilities were part of why he was able to be on Scadrial during Era 2 As opposed to simply Realmatic Knowledge Again, please realize I actually agree with your postulation - except - that you are stating them as facts instead of theories. 1
alder24 Posted November 6, 2024 Posted November 6, 2024 9 minutes ago, Treamayne said: I can see that as one interpretation - but I disagree that it is the only interpretation. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm saying it is also possible (based on the way those two WoBs are worded): Hoid left without breaking the bond or killing Design, but Design stayed on Roshar Hoid left without Design, but Design (and their bond) recovered as soonas he returned to Roshar. With all due respect, in my opinion those two WoBs together leave no room for any other interpretation, unless there are other WoBs contradicting it. The second WoB literally said that Hoid can't leave Roshar without breaking his bond. But it all comes down to how one defines the "maintain powers" phrase. For me it means Hoid has access to them, can theoretically use them (if he can fuel them) and that means Design had to be with Hoid on Scadrial. If someone interprets it as "didn't lose the bond but can't access powers" then you can argue that there are other options. 1
Treamayne Posted November 6, 2024 Posted November 6, 2024 3 minutes ago, alder24 said: But it all comes down to how one defines the "maintain powers" phrase. The answer never addressed that part of the question. The verified answer only confirms the points posted above.
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