Will Emotional Allomancy Become Obsolete?

[Trusk'our he/him]

Given that aluminum is supposed to become extremely cheap come era 3, will Emotional Allomancy become largely useless for sneaky exploits?

It doesn't feel like anyone taking serious actions with two functioning neurons would choose not to keep some aluminum around their head to prevent manipulation. So, does this mean Emotional Allomancers will become the new Gnats, seen useful only for their abilities in Soothing parlors?

[PanicPug]

Interesting question. I don't have an answer for you but another question popped up in my mind when I read it:

Can Kandra, Koloss and anyone else with more than two spikes (or whatever the number was that allowed to be taken control of by emotional Allomancy) shield themselves with aluminium against being controlled by emotional Allomancy? And would one have to coat the spikes themselves or the brain?

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

39 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Given that aluminum is supposed to become extremely cheap come era 3, will Emotional Allomancy become largely useless for sneaky exploits?

It doesn't feel like anyone taking serious actions with two functioning neurons would choose not to keep some aluminum around their head to prevent manipulation. So, does this mean Emotional Allomancers will become the new Gnats, seen useful only for their abilities in Soothing parlors?

No way, not a single possible chance.

My justification? Modern professional offices often indulge in providing minor perks, incentives, and accommodations at no cost to building inhabitants as a simple matter of facilitating and encouraging hard work, focus, and positivity.

If your era3 stock trading operation doesn't employ a rioter and soother to sit 8-12 hours per day within 100 yards of the free coffee machine and (not free) vending machine, or if 100% of the staff wear aluminum beanies, it simply isn't going to stay competitive enough to float.

I think the future of allomancy absolutely must involve civillians and mistings working together more collaboratively and functionally. Era1 was dominated by mistborn who basically operated almost completely outside the law. Era2 saw the first foreshadowing of oversight and accountability, as well as the dissemination of mechanized power usable and understandable by the non-metalborn. I think this trend will continue and, with that in mind, I would actually expect aluminum foil hats to become rarer, not more common specifically because I would also expect the penalties and negative public opinion of public rioting and soothing outside of narrowly defined situations to start becoming punishable by law or at least subject to harsh general condemnation.

It's a little counter-intuitive, but that's sort of just how power regulations work. It's an imperfect metaphor, but that would be my prediction anyhow.

[Trusk'our he/him]

7 minutes ago, PanicPug said:

Can Kandra, Koloss and anyone else with more than two spikes (or whatever the number was that allowed to be taken control of by emotional Allomancy) shield themselves with aluminium against being controlled by emotional Allomancy? And would one have to coat the spikes themselves or the brain?

It seems that any external mental influence would be diminished by aluminum's presence, so I'd say a Kandra or Koloss would be able to use the metal to be safer. 

As for what to cover, the brain is the general target for Emotional Allomancy, though Hemalurgic spikes actually crack open the soul, so I'd expect the Allomancy to seep in around the spots where the spikes are. In other words, I think they'd better cover the head and the spikes.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/171-oathbringer-release-party/#e8223

Questioner

So, if we switch to Scadrial, and I had lined the inside of my hat with aluminum, I'm protecting myself from emotional Allomancy. What if I was able to use emotional Allomancy? Would that block me?

Brandon Sanderson

So, it's going to interfere a little bit. But the issue with that is, a lot of Allomancy is coming from center and going to head. So, you're probably still gonna be okay with the helmet... So, I'm gonna say, you don't want a lot of aluminum around you, but you could probably still make it work.

 

7 minutes ago, hwiles said:

No way, not a single possible chance.

My justification? Modern professional offices often indulge in providing minor perks, incentives, and accommodations at no cost to building inhabitants as a simple matter of facilitating and encouraging hard work, focus, and positivity.

If your era3 stock trading operation doesn't employ a rioter and soother to sit 8-12 hours per day within 100 yards of the free coffee machine and (not free) vending machine, or if 100% of the staff wear aluminum beanies, it simply isn't going to stay competitive enough to float.

I think the future of allomancy absolutely must involve civillians and mistings working together more collaboratively and functionally. Era1 was dominated by mistborn who basically operated almost completely outside the law. Era2 saw the first foreshadowing of oversight and accountability, as well as the dissemination of mechanized power usable and understandable by the non-metalborn. I think this trend will continue and, with that in mind, I would actually expect aluminum foil hats to become rarer, not more common specifically because I would also expect the penalties and negative public opinion of public rioting and soothing outside of narrowly defined situations to start becoming punishable by law or at least subject to harsh general condemnation.

It's a little counter-intuitive, but that's sort of just how power regulations work. It's an imperfect metaphor, but that would be my prediction anyhow.

Definitely an interesting take.

I suppose that could be the case, it just feels weird to me that people wouldn't try having some protection from it, particularly when doing stuff like contemplating a business transaction and whatnot. 

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

I think that more aluminum shielding will encourage Hemalurgists, since with aluminum they won't need to worry as much about Harmony taking control of them if they use more than 3 Spikes.

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

13 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

It seems that any external mental influence would be diminished by aluminum's presence, so I'd say a Kandra or Koloss would be able to use the metal to be safer. 

As for what to cover, the brain is the general target for Emotional Allomancy, though Hemalurgic spikes actually crack open the soul, so I'd expect the Allomancy to seep in around the spots where the spikes are. In other words, I think they'd better cover the head and the spikes.

  Reveal hidden contents

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/171-oathbringer-release-party/#e8223

Questioner

So, if we switch to Scadrial, and I had lined the inside of my hat with aluminum, I'm protecting myself from emotional Allomancy. What if I was able to use emotional Allomancy? Would that block me?

Brandon Sanderson

So, it's going to interfere a little bit. But the issue with that is, a lot of Allomancy is coming from center and going to head. So, you're probably still gonna be okay with the helmet... So, I'm gonna say, you don't want a lot of aluminum around you, but you could probably still make it work.

 

Definitely an interesting take.

I suppose that could be the case, it just feels weird to me that people wouldn't try having some protection from it, particularly when doing stuff like contemplating a business transaction and whatnot. 

Thanks! I think about it this way:

It is easier to purchase assault weapons and Kevlar armor in the United States now than it has ever been.

Are there more incidents of gun violence? Yes (assuming we categorically exclude acts of war in this context, or any kind of sanctioned conflict). Is it in any way common to observe people wearing armor or carrying (holstered) assault rifles in public? No, because even though it is legitimately legal in many states, it makes people react very negatively even when everything goes perfectly fine and no one does anything overtly threatening.

200 years ago, it was common in many areas to bring a rifle or musket with your family for a simple walk to church because wolves, bears, and raiders were...not a "common" threat, but...they were technically a relevant threat that needed to be guarded against proactively.

Will allomancy be weaponized? Definitely. Will it be weaponized against civillians? Absolutely not; scadrial isn't going back to feudal era1, they're going to space.

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, hwiles said:

Thanks! I think about it this way:

It is easier to purchase assault weapons and Kevlar armor in the United States now than it has ever been.

Are there more incidents of gun violence? Yes (assuming we categorically exclude acts of war in this context, or any kind of sanctioned conflict). Is it in any way common to observe people wearing armor or carrying (holstered) assault rifles in public? No, because even though it is legitimately legal in many states, it makes people react very negatively even when everything goes perfectly fine and no one does anything overtly threatening.

200 years ago, it was common in many areas to bring a rifle or musket with your family for a simple walk to church because wolves, bears, and raiders were...not a "common" threat, but...they were technically a relevant threat that needed to be guarded against proactively.

Will allomancy be weaponized? Definitely. Will it be weaponized against civillians? Absolutely not; scadrial isn't going back to feudal era1, they're going to space.

Good thoughts.

I think you're probably right, the general population likely isn't going to worry about somebody using Emotional Allomancy on them all the time, especially if they get beneficial effects when work related Soothing or Rioting boosts their moral. 

And, I suppose bad guys in Era 2 were already using aluminum-lined hats anyway, even in AoL, so I suppose the difference in combating Allomancy would be minimal. 

1 hour ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

I think that more aluminum shielding will encourage Hemalurgists, since with aluminum they won't need to worry as much about Harmony taking control of them if they use more than 3 Spikes.

I would suspect so.

The real danger I think lies with enemy Allomancers though, as I don't think Sazed will forcibly control people who aren't trying to destroy Scadrial, even if they're still villainous. Though that's just my opinion, and obviously Harmony's actions are subject to specific scenarios. 

Actually, you know what would be a cool character concept for the Mistborn TTRPG? A bad guy who stumbles upon Hemalurgy's existence and uses it. Eventually, Harmony has enough and speaks directly into their mind, and drags them along to meet the rest of the ragtag team of adventurers or threatens to control them. Basically making them pay recompense by saving the world (or at least doing some good). Maybe character growth happens along the way too, which would be nice.

Edited November 6, 2024 by Trusk'our

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, PanicPug said:

Can Kandra, Koloss and anyone else with more than two spikes

Kandra, less so than other targets. If only because, biologically, they do not have a central "brain" (and part of why head shots do not kill them). That said, Harmony can just take them from you when he wants to do so. . .

WoB:

Spoiler

zas678

TenSoon wonders, and I wonder too- How can kandra think and be sentient without brains? Doesn't the body need a physical coordinator to relay between the Physical and Cognitive realm? Or do the spikes do a good enough job with that?

Brandon Sanderson

I imagine kandra having a non-centralized nervous system, with brain power spread through their bodies. Well, non-centralized is probably the wrong way to say it. They have lobes of thought and memory attached to muscles here and there, and don't have a single 'brain.' They certainly have brain-like material, though.

/r/Fantasy_Bookclub Alloy of Law Q&A (Jan. 17, 2012)

 

[Duxredux he/him]

19 hours ago, hwiles said:

No way, not a single possible chance.

My justification? Modern professional offices often indulge in providing minor perks, incentives, and accommodations at no cost to building inhabitants as a simple matter of facilitating and encouraging hard work, focus, and positivity.

If your era3 stock trading operation doesn't employ a rioter and soother to sit 8-12 hours per day within 100 yards of the free coffee machine and (not free) vending machine, or if 100% of the staff wear aluminum beanies, it simply isn't going to stay competitive enough to float.

I think the future of allomancy absolutely must involve civillians and mistings working together more collaboratively and functionally. Era1 was dominated by mistborn who basically operated almost completely outside the law. Era2 saw the first foreshadowing of oversight and accountability, as well as the dissemination of mechanized power usable and understandable by the non-metalborn. I think this trend will continue and, with that in mind, I would actually expect aluminum foil hats to become rarer, not more common specifically because I would also expect the penalties and negative public opinion of public rioting and soothing outside of narrowly defined situations to start becoming punishable by law or at least subject to harsh general condemnation.

It's a little counter-intuitive, but that's sort of just how power regulations work. It's an imperfect metaphor, but that would be my prediction anyhow.

I agree that Emotional Allomancy will not become obsolete, but there's a number of directions I think it could jump based on technological, allomantic, and social contraints that have not yet developed on Scadrial. I expect we will see trends throughout the history of Scadrial, but I have no ideal how it will settle out in Era 3 or Era 4.

Let's start with what we've already seen, in part because Scadrial's historical accounts will inform Scadrian behavior and policy. In Era 1, it was well known by the Skaa underground that Ministry obligators were specially trained to recognize when their emotions had been manipulated - this is how the Steel Inquisitors began hunting Vin. TLR's Soothing stations setup with both Soother and Smoker dispersed throughout Luthadel to suppress the skaa that were never externally detected - Marsh had to be introduced to them for Kelsier's crew to know about them. We see Breeze raise an army for Kelsier by using precise and calculated Soothing to reinforce memories with emotional weight that would persist long after he stopped Soothing them. There of course is the flaw to the Kandra and Koloss.

In Era 2 we see the advent of aluminum hats by both the constabulary and criminal organizations. Soothing parlors have been established that require mandated aluminum shielding to prevent emotional pollution to the adjacent buildings and street. Wax caught at least one taxi service that was illegally uses Rioters to encourage pedestrians to choose to use their service rather than risk walking during the riots of SoS. During Governor Innate Melaan's speech, the constabulary was present and watching for assassins, but Marasi had to identify the Set allomancers influencing the crowd's emotions on a large scale level and alert the other constables. Clearly some issues were still seen.

Here are factors that as far as I know we have not yet seen that will play into how emotional allomancy is utilized and controlled. 

• Historically it has been difficult for the governing body to identify illegal emotional Allomancy particularly when used in conjunction with Copperclouds. It requires specialized training and consistent awareness to recognize when personal emotions have been altered, and even career constables have been caught unawares. Generally other factors expose the allomancy, such as Marasi's large scale observation of crowd behavior or Wax overhearing a Coinshot courier's report and deducing the employment of the Rioters, not the Allomancers themselves. In essence, it asks the question of how effective the governing body is at policing unsolicited emotional alteration. Additional notes:
  • I could see an employment opportunity for Windwhisperers, or blind or deaf inspectors who may be able to more effectively isolate generalized emotional allomancy from people who may be influenced by whatever the Allomancer is hoping to reinforce. A deaf person walking past a rousing speech is unlikely to hit the same emotional cues the hearing audience would experience. I had a neighbor that served in the Vietnam war that was tasked with idenfying enemy tanks in a jungle from aerial images because he was colorblind and could identify the shape of the tanks without being distracted by the camoflage coloration.
  • It's worth noting that as Trellium reacts to Allomancy, they have a method to mechanically detect Allomancy, including emotional Allomancy, but the range or specificity remains to be seen. A response to a Coppercloud may look the same as a Soother.
• I don't think there has been a confirmed documented case post Catacendre of emotional allomancy pushing a victim to commit a crime or being injured as a result of emotional Allomancy. The extent that this is possible I don't think has been explored yet, nor do I know if this would generally be more of a risk with an exceptionally strong Allomancer or emotionally compromised target (young, mental health, etc. The degree that emotional Allomancy enables this will affect public perception and influence regulation.
  • Let's make a hypothetical example. A gym decides to hire a Rioter to boost the confidence and reduce the fatigue of members. A weightlifter gets overconfident and significantly injures themselves by trying to lift more than their body could handle. Should the gym and RIoter be held liable? What about exhaustion or overwork after leaving the gym and no longer being under the effects of the Rioter?
• The next question is the adjacency of emotional Allomancy to IRL strategies already utilized. A bakery venting the aroma from their kitchen to the street or an advertising billboard with a 12' tall image of a spider next to a pest control ad are designed to provoke a visceral response of hunger, anxiety, or fear. What makes emotional Allomancy different is that it has it doesn't have a natural signature or immediately recognizeable source for the general population.  In the case of the taxi service, they were using Rioters to increase fear and anxiety without overtly advertising that they were doing so. Subliminal or anonymized influence is much easier with Allomancy, which also makes it somewhat easier to be used maliciously or against the public wellbeing.
• Let's also talk about overspill. Back in era 2 they lined Soothing parlors with aluminum to minimize emotional pollution into the public - but this was before radio had really taken off with wifi, cellphones, and the host of communication methods that are disrupted by metal shielding. Depending on how blanket emotional allomancy "moves", windows may or may not be viable in buildings that require aluminum shielding for quite some time (we've figured out how to make aluminum oxynitride into a optically transparent glass-like ceramic for windows, but it's extremely expensive to make. It's at least 5 times more expensive than conventional glass). I think in our current era with wifi and wifi enabled phone calls, we could circumvent the issue of shielded buildings with wifi routers installed within the space, but it would require quite a few additional costs.
• Next, desired applications. We've already seen Soothing parlors, I've mentioned gyms, and hwiles has talked about offices. Emotional Allomancy could be used to enhance movies or theatrical productions, and therapy. Because it can enhance so many experiences, it likely will never go away, but there's a distinction between voluntarily asking to be Soothed or Rioted, and involuntary manipulation.

Long block of text, but I expect there to be phases as technology and society hammer out what is acceptable. It also will be relevant if wearing aluminum hats can hinder people in the Cognitive Realm from gaining insights or influencing people in the PR. I expect tinfoil lined hats to stick around just like RFID blocking wallets - but because there's an additional cost to indulge paranoia, it may or may not be used by the general public.

Edited November 6, 2024 by Duxredux
finished incomplete thoughts.

[Returned he/him]

On 11/5/2024 at 5:11 PM, Trusk'our said:

I suppose that could be the case, it just feels weird to me that people wouldn't try having some protection from it, particularly when doing stuff like contemplating a business transaction and whatnot. 

Edit: Shoot, Duxredux covered most of this already, and better!

I think that Breeze's thoughts around Soothing are relevant here as well. While there's something specific to being magically influenced directly and precisely (Allomancy), it's not functionally different from any other process that would affect your emotional state. Aluminum is only going to protect you from the former. The latter is something a lot of people seem to like to pretend isn't true of themselves ("I can't be influenced like that!") but there is quite a lot of evidence suggesting that it is true. A pretty face alone can do a lot to alter your mind. A skilled manipulator, Allomancer or not, is going to have a lot of options for fiddling with your emotional state even without magic. If your aluminum-lined hat isn't going to help you avoid buying a timeshare at the high-pressure timeshare sales event, then what is it really worth even if the hat itself is costless?

I also think that the more concerned a person is about Allomantic influence the less likely they would be to rely on something easy, like just having a hat. What if the aluminum is counterfeit? You'd have no protection at all while assuming that you had total protection, which is a bad situation to be in. An adversary might be able to do something more tailored as well, like swapping out your hat for a fake while you sleep, introducing a crack in one portion of the metal and remembering what angle is now vulnerable, or something else. "I'll just wear my hat" is the attitude of someone with a general, casual concern and a general, casual countermeasure. That kind of person might not be very thorough in their preparation, and so Allomancy wouldn't be obsolete against them. Someone who is more specifically concerned about being magically influenced will have to do a lot more for the hat to really protect them.

All else being equal I think that the best countermeasure is one we've already seen in Obligators from era 1: practice being the object of someone's emotional Allomancy and learn how it feels when it's happening to you so that you can identify the effect if and when it occurs.

Edited November 7, 2024 by Returned