Why do we debate Moash?

[Duxredux he/him]

I'm genuinely curious, and I got some really cool viewpoints and discussions when I asked a similar question on how people view a certain Scadrian. Why do so many people hate Moash so much that they make T-shirts declaring how much they despise him? When I searched Google  for "I love Moash" t-shirt for a recent thread, I couldn't find a single product that matched that description, but dozens of hate shirts, and quite a strong reaction on Reddit to Dan's shirt "Moash, I can fix him, no really".

In a similar vein, I made an AMA on the forum and the one and only question I got was "what do you do about the Moashs in life?" No idea, I've never had a best friend try to murder me or my parents, push me towards suicide, or try to recruit me for a organization that commits brutal assassinations. If I did, I'd probably call the police, but clearly that wasn't really the question. With so many threads about Moash, it seems like the fandom simply cannot not comment on Moash. Why?

Some ground rules, because I know that even saying Moash can get a reaction from some people.

First, remember that each reader's experience is their own, and that their experience is not invalid because it doesn't match your own. I hope to open a safe thread where we can openly discuss why we feel so strongly and spend page after page on threads discussing Moash, his actions, and how others respond to him. Moash has generated probably dozens if not hundreds of hours of people discussing him. I intentionally made the poll anonymous to see if there are distinct patterns in why we debate him, perhaps the reason we bring up Moash isn't the reason that people respond, or if the response is secondary in nature. 

Second, people will have different responses to the text and subtext of the story, please keep corrections strictly to factual information.

Just so it's here, I'll grab his bio from the Coppermind and put it in spoiler text.

Early Life

Spoiler

Both of Moash's parents died when he was a child. He was raised by his aging grandparents, Ana and Da, who both worked as silversmiths in Kholinar.^[22] It was his grandfather who named him. Later, Moash would discover that his name was singer in origin.^[23] Moash was generally met with hostility and distrust by other people, and likely had a troubled childhood because of it. This was one of the reasons Moash joined the caravans for work, which his grandparents encouraged.^[8] He did not want to enter the family business, preferring jobs that were more physically active.^[22] Moash worked the caravans with his uncle when he was young.^[2]

While he was working on a caravan for a few months, his grandparents became victims in the Roshone Affair that led to them dying while incarcerated in the palace dungeons. Moash ultimately blamed Elhokar Kholin, who was then a royal prince but would later become the king of Alethkar, for their deaths. Ana and Da had been dead for two months by the time Moash returned, and was told of their passing by a neighbor after returning to an empty home. The pain of losing them helped shape Moash's personality.^[22]

Bridge Four

Spoiler

Sent to the Bridgecrews[edit]

Moash joined the war voluntarily with the hope of winning a Shardblade, and traveled to the Shattered Plains in Jam's caravan.^[8] Assuming he would be made a spearman, Moash instead got sent to the bridge crews along with most of the other people who joined with him, ending up in Bridge Four. Moash initially tried to run away from the bridge crews, but he was caught and beaten for it, with the threat of receiving a slave brand if he tried to run again.^[24]

When Kaladin first began his attempts to reform Bridge Four, Moash was singled out to be made an example due to his strong appearance and since he was one of the men who ignored Kaladin's command to get up, instead rolling back over to sleep more. Kaladin pulled Moash out of bed and punched him in the stomach, picking him up over his shoulder and taking him outside the barracks while he was stunned. Irritated at this treatment, Moash called out to Gaz, asking if they needed to follow Kaladin's orders. Receiving a negative from Gaz, Moash told Kaladin to storm off unless he planned on beating all of them up, and he and the other bridgemen dispersed.^[3]

Moash continued to distrust Kaladin's intentions and openly disliked him. While many of the other bridgemen also disliked Kaladin, he was one of the most vocal.^[25] When Kaladin chose to stand instead of resting on a bridge run, Moash swore at him.^[26] He was the first one to laugh at the idea of pooling their money and food to help the wounded bridgemen Kaladin brought back, claiming that if it were him, he'd rather die quickly on a bridge run than slowly in the barracks.^[27] Moash, along with Sigzil, refused to look at Kaladin when he tried to pull the bridgemen into conversation on chasm duty.^[25] Moash did let Kaladin use his flint and steel to cauterize wounds, however, which he likely had due to it being standard equipment that caravaneers carried with them.^[26][8]

When Kaladin picked up and stared at a spear during chasm duty, Moash taunted him, calling Kaladin "lordling," which he picked up from talking with Gaz. Moash shared with Narm what he learned from Gaz, claiming that Kaladin was lying about being a previous squadleader. This triggered the other bridgemen to start complaining about Kaladin with each other, until they were stunned into silence by Kaladin's kata that he performed. Moash himself dropped the spheres he was holding in shock. That night, Moash accepted Rock's stew, though Moash still refused to rise the next morning to train when Kaladin called for it.^[25]

Later, Kaladin named Moash a subsquad commander for Bridge Four, along with Rock, Teft, and Skar. Kaladin told the four to go gather their men, but Moash lingered behind to ask Kaladin why he chose him to be one of the subsquad leaders. He explained that it was because Moash was so vocally resistant to Kaladin's efforts for so long, and that in addition to being capable and intelligent, it showed Moash was strong-willed, which Kaladin could use. Moash accepted this, but claimed that he was not like the others who revered Kaladin, and he still didn't trust him. When asked why Moash was choosing to obey him then, he claimed he was curious before moving off to follow Kaladin's previous orders.^[4]

Despite his efforts to distrust Kaladin, Moash joined Teft and Rock in telling Kaladin they won't forget him and will carry on his legacy after Kaladin is beaten and strung up for attempting the side carry maneuver on a bridge run. Moash commented that this way they will only lose one member thanks to what Kaladin did, and that he did it for them.^[28] Moash was awed by the side carry maneuver at the time, not realizing the harm it had done to the greater battle.^[29]

Moash shared with Kaladin his desire to win a Shardblade and how he was sent to the bridge crews after Sigzil told them about how the kingdom Babatharnam decides who gets placed in power. Unlike Kaladin, Moash said that he'd join the lighteyes if given the opportunity and that he still planned to win a Shardblade to change the world so abuses wouldn't happen to anyone. Even though Moash said he would make lighteyes work the difficult and dangerous jobs instead of darkeyes, he denied Sigzil's warning that the world would stay the same and claimed he'd change it.^[24]

Learning to Fight and Trust[edit]

Moash was eager to begin training with spears in the chasms.^[30] When Bridge Four started their training, Moash was one of the first who changed into a fighting man and only needed two hours to start exercises Kaladin usually wouldn't start until the second or third day of training. Only Skar and Drehy were nearly as talented as Moash was.^[31] Later, on the bridgerun when Dunny died, Moash used one of the moves Kaladin taught him to knock Kaladin to the ground and prevent him from running onto the bridge in an attempt to try and reach Dunny's body, and probably saved Kaladin's life. After Kaladin tended to the wounded bridgemen, Kaladin told Moash that he was right to stop him, and Moash then told Kaladin that he was wrong about him and they shook hands.^[32]

Once Moash fully accepted putting his trust in Kaladin, he later defended him when Skar questioned how Kaladin would get the spears out of the chasms once it was time to run, much to Kaladin's surprise. During that same chasm duty shift Kaladin found an emerald broam, which Moash became infatuated with and insisted he'd be able to swallow so they could keep it to spend on medical supplies. Moash was crestfallen when Kaladin repeatedly told him it would be too suspicious for a bridgeman to spend a broam, despite Bridge Four being able to keep an equal amount of other spheres in smaller denominations.^[33]

When Adolin tried to give Kaladin the gift of Shardblade and Shardplate, Kaladin instead gave them to Moash, thereby making him a lighteyes in rank.^[34] The Shardblade had a twisting vine pattern along the center of the blade, and the Shardplate, previously belonging to Abrobadar, was painted orange.^[34] Moash later had the Plate repainted to be blue with red accents.^[19] His eyes started to lighten a week after receiving the Shards,^[6] though he still did not consider himself lighteyes.

Attempted Regicide and Desertion

Spoiler

Kaladin: "Sometimes lives must be spent for the greater good."
Moash: "Exactly!"
Kaladin: "That's what Amaram said. In regards to my men, whom he killed to cover up his theft."

―Conversation between Kaladin and Moash on the topic of assassinating Elhokar

Moash became involved in a plot with Graves to assassinate King Elhokar Kholin, which was ultimately thwarted by Kaladin. Moash took his Plate and Blade and fled the warcamps with Graves after their failed attempt.^[13]

They head out into the wilderness with a caravan of stolen goods. Graves intended to introduce Moash to the Diagram, hoping that bringing back a full Shardbearer could compensate for his plan's failure. A short while into the trip, they were attacked by a group of Fused. Graves was killed, and Moash attempted to fight with his Shardblade, but deemed it too unwieldy. He got hold of a spear and was able to kill Leshwi, one of the Fused.

Upon seeing this, the other Fused gave Moash a choice, he could give up his weapons and come with them, or die at their hands.^[20] They did this because they thought that Leshwi would want to have revenge once she was reborn. Leshwi did not want revenge however, considering Moash to have great passion.^[23]

Servant of the Fused

Spoiler

As a slave, he pulled supply sledges across the country. On one of his routes, he saw a group of singers pulling sledges like the other slaves. He stood up for the group, gaining more respect among the Fused and the singers.^[2] Eventually, he joined the assault on Kholinar as a warrior for the Fused's army.

In Kholinar, he and his singer companions fought with Kholinar's Wall Guard. At the climax of the fight, Moash found his way to King Elhokar, and stabbed him through the chest. He then stabbed the king again in the eye, just before Elhokar could finish swearing the First Ideal. His vengeance fulfilled, he looked up to see Kaladin, who was in Kholinar with the king on a mission to save the city. Moash saluted his former captain, who had frozen in shock at what happened, and left.^[15]

Following the siege, he was put to work as a laborer clearing out the debris. There he was approached by a Fused, Hnanan, who gave him a bright golden knife with a sapphire attached to it. The Fused then sent him to assassinate the Herald Jezrien, whom he killed with the knife.^[16] Some time after the successful assassination, the Fused, Leshwi, offered Moash Jezrien's Honorblade as well as a new identity. He accepted, took the singer name Vyre, which meant He Who Quiets, and used the Honorblade to join the Fused in the air.^[17]

A year later, Moash took part in the Fused assault on Hearthstone, where he murdered Roshone in front of Kaladin, who went into a state of battle shock. Moash then attempted to persuade Kaladin to commit suicide. He was stopped by Renarin, who showed Moash a vision of the man he could have been had he not betrayed Bridge Four, a Windrunner of the Third Ideal, causing Moash to flee.^[35]

In Kholinar, he sat in on a session of the Nine, where he warns them that Kaladin will foil their plan to occupy Urithiru.^[36] Later, he was approached by Odium, who intended to break Kaladin and questioned Moash on the best ways of tormenting his former captain.^[1]

Occupation of Urithiru

Spoiler

Moash: "I am unchained."
Odium: "And yet, you think so often of Kaladin."
Moash: "I am … mostly unchained."

―Moash speaking with Odium^[1]

During the occupation of Urithiru, Vyre used his Honorblade to operate the Oathgate between Kholinar and the tower for the Fused.^[37] When the uprising to take Urithiru back began, he set a trap for Kaladin in his family's clinic, but the trap was instead sprung by Teft and Lift. Moash injured Lift, then used a raysium dagger containing anti-Stormlight to permanently kill Teft's spren, Phendorana, before killing Teft.^[38][39] He handed Lirin to the Fused as insurance against Kaladin, ordering them to kill Lirin in front of his son should Kaladin fight back.^[40]

Moash then descended to the basement of Urithiru to kill Queen Navani. Nearly succeeding, he was ambushed by an injured Raboniel, which gave Navani time to bond the Sibling. After restoring the tower, she used its Light to incapacitate Moash and forcibly return his pain to him.^[41] Moash fled, hating himself for what he had done to Teft and realizing that he did not truly regret the murder, only the guilt. He eventually broke his spine in a fall and nearly died before being rescued by a few Heavenly Ones and given Stormlight. When he recovered, he found that he was blind.^[21]

 

What do you think? Justice and mercy? Knowing when to turn your back on a friend/loved one? How close are we to this point:

Thoughts?

Edited October 28, 2024 by Duxredux
added thought

[Trusk'our he/him]

It's interesting to see others' point of view on this and other topics.

I know I tend toward mercy over justice in most cases, probably because I feel like if I do so then maybe mercy will be delt to me.

I don't feel like a particularly good person, which is probably why I think this way. I think everyone does something similar: the things you experience that affect you directly are what shape how you think, feel, and act. As such, I can totally see why someone betrayed would be leaning more towards justice with Moash, but as I haven't gone through such an experience my mind doesn't truly comprehend that (though I like hearing what others say).

I guess what I'm getting at is that I think the discussions between Moash's position primarily reflect how we think justice and mercy should be handled in real life, because that's what good stories do. Sometimes it gets hard to separate fiction from reality, which makes the debating all the more aggravating. 

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

I’m fascinated by people’s view points on Moash personally and how some strongly feel he is worthy of redemption arc and others just as strongly want him to pound sand in torture on Braize for 4 millennia 
 

I also think it’s indicative of newer readers picking up SA and having their own first strong feelings as they go through the journey of Moash’s betrayal. 
 

For me I feel more like the latter, but fear that Sanderson wants to redeem him in the back of my mind and so my mind races for how he might accomplish that too. 

[Treamayne]

First note on a polls:

Quote

if I was write (optional

Right?

Second note on the Polls:

You are missing the most-common reason is both instances:
   People think they will actually convince others to change their opinion (which is not impossible, but also not likely). 

- - - - - - - - - -

That said - I chose 4 and other on the second half. . .

But 4 is really why I open the thread in the first place and read/skim the posts - not why I posted. I like seeing how different cultures, backgrounds and heritages impact Sharder's interpretations of these moral-grey areas. 

Why I posted, usually, was to provide references and quotes that others discussed but could not find and quote (to also make sure the discussion had exact wording available). Once, early on, I posted my personal feelings on the subject, so I do not see a reason to do so again (I can always just link that post - my opinion has not changed). The other other reason I posted my thoughts that first time was because I had not seen anybody share my personal belief (see this post) Summarized:

Spoiler

On 5/28/2022 at 3:37 PM, Treamayne said:

I don't think Moash would allow himself a redemption arc. 

 

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

Because...Sanderson finished the Wheel of Time...he understands that evil and despicable people exist for a reason, and that reason is not so that they can be tortured by "good" people...

Quote

No man can walk so long in the Shadow that he cannot come again to the Light.

That said, Moash is a raging dumpster fire of a human being; it just isn't totally his fault.

[Wanguu He/Him]

I've always believed that people debate and revile Moash so much because he is so real. What Moash did makes sense to give in to your giref, pain, and move on. It's why Teft returns to the firemoss. You are far more likely to meet a Moash in your life than a Kaladin

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

2 hours ago, Wanguu said:

I've always believed that people debate and revile Moash so much because he is so real. What Moash did makes sense to give in to your giref, pain, and move on. It's why Teft returns to the firemoss. You are far more likely to meet a Moash in your life than a Kaladin

I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head with this one. Plus...I would add that, at least when he isn't acting full-blown psychotic and lusting after power, he is exceptionally assertive and charming, and...while that doesn't directly make him a sympathetic villian in and of itself, it does lead many people to want to empathize with him...and, as soon as they succeed, they understand what he is a product of and why he is the way he is.

And, for better or worse, no person anywhere is capable of hating something that they fully understand. They can still hurt or kill it if they choose to, but they cannot still hate it.

[Sedside she/her]

9 hours ago, Wanguu said:

I've always believed that people debate and revile Moash so much because he is so real. What Moash did makes sense to give in to your giref, pain, and move on. It's why Teft returns to the firemoss. You are far more likely to meet a Moash in your life than a Kaladin

Agree. Moash is, imo, a good character with well-written arc (by good I don't mean kind, I mean relatable and believable). He is real, as you said, and he is scary because of it. He represents how a single misstep, reluctance to deal with a single emotion or weakness in oneself can gradually lead a person to darkness. And even when he is already in darkness he is still the same old Moash, not some cartoon villain. In other words, his arc is a depiction of a journey to the dark side, and this journey is so smooth, it scares people. We've already seen Kaladin almost taking the same path, he was this close to it, and we understand subconsciously that other characters (real life included) are not immune to it as well. And discussing is a way to channel this fear, I guess.

Edited October 25, 2024 by Sedside
a little clarification

[Returned he/him]

20 hours ago, Wanguu said:

I've always believed that people debate and revile Moash so much because he is so real. What Moash did makes sense to give in to your giref, pain, and move on. It's why Teft returns to the firemoss. You are far more likely to meet a Moash in your life than a Kaladin

I'll add another mark of approval to this, I think you described the core insight really well!

Branching off from this, I think that there is a typical case in literature (so common as to be beyond a trope) that characters are either blatantly heroic or anti-heroic. In both cases they are fundamentally "good-aligned", doing good things for the right reasons for the former and bad things for the right reasons for the latter. They may have flaws but their intentions and actions are usually pointed the "right" way. Characters who do bad things for evil reasons are almost always villains, and often shallowly depicted in how and why they do the things they do.

Moash is different in that he is a well-drawn character who has a very similar backstory to Kaladin (who is a pretty clearly heroic character) who then makes increasingly "bad" choices for increasingly wicked reasons. I think that his background, his contrast to Kaladin, and his strong character development make it especially poignant for him to have turned so wholly to the dark side. I liked Moash a lot in WoK, and only a little less so in WoR, but his ongoing choices are offensive and upsetting to me. That's a huge part of what made him such an engaging character for me, even as I dislike and disapprove of him now. I think that that's the big reason there is a group that wants redemption for Moash but not for Amaram (in particular) or Torol Sadeas.

[Duxredux he/him]

I decided somewhat arbitrarily to wait over the weekend from when I made the poll before I made any response. This was in part because I wanted to see what people had to say, in part because I know the first voice can sometimes get abnormal weight. @Treamayne, thanks for the grammar check. If it's okay with you, I'll probably hold off on the option "people who comment to add book/WoB citations", since that's just more about being a friendly and helpful member of the community like you often are, and less about Moash himself.

Interesting. Within 24 hours after opening the poll, there was already a visible disparity between why people think others post, and why they themselves post. I'm sure people noticed the echo between the poll questions, and yes, that was intentional. I was curious if in general we were missing why others might post about Moash, and it looks like at some level I was right in that I was wrong with my guesses- at the time of this post, one third of the responders said that I missed the reason that they chose to talk about Moash. I haven't figured out a way to let people retake the poll, so options I added later will be significantly underrepresented. If I haven't added your reason to the poll, and you want me to, please DM or tag me with the poll question. I want to get the wording right. Hopefully no staff member will mind me creating a new poll in about a week or two, with the new questions.

--

Oh, perhaps I should say this before I go any further. Does anyone mind if I do a little social experiment with these polls, where in a week or two I'll post a new poll with the original questions along with all additions and see if the trends changed at all? I figure there's a decent chance that this is far enough down the thread that people are likely to vote on the poll before they read this. I'm curious if discussing the why of why we choose to talk about Moash actually expands and changes if not our views on Moash, then at least our views on the other members of the conversation, or if most of us walk away from this largely the same. Anyone interested? Anyone against?

--

On to my response to the discussion here. I debated with myself on whether or not to write a mini essay on cautionary stories and common responses I've seen, but for the moment, I think I'll stick to "why we debate Moash" along with my guesses as to the causes of friction and arguments. 

First, I think an obvious friction point is that because Moash feels real to many people, but not all, at some level many are conflating him with IRL circumstances, people, issues, etc.. I don't think that this is a problem in of itself, as many others have noted in this thread, great literature often will make us think about how the themes apply in real life. Where it can cause friction is that this means not everyone is viewing Moash within the same context. Either not all have decided to conflate him with IRL issues, or we all have different IRL experiences that inform the way we view these issues. Obvious statements perhaps, but I think worth remembering and occasionally asking for clarifying questions. In my experience, most people on the forum are quite reasonable, it's that I miss something and don't bother to ask clarifying questions before responding to something that seems off to me.

Second, is that within the context of justice and mercy, just this topic alone would be very difficult to come to consensus - particularly if it's blended with IRL philosophy, law, and religion, and not viewed strictly within the context of Roshar (which would be similarly difficult). I've also noticed what seems to be difficult to define factors in those discussion - namely the timeframe and actionability of the proposed justice or mercy. Another way of phrasing this is that law enforcement typically has varying response protocols when attempting to apprehend a suspect based on if they are armed or not, if they are actively resisting arrest or not, or if there are bystanders at risk or not - to try to reduce the risk of loss of life for all parties involved. I'll divide the thoughts a bit:

• When looking at mercy and giving Moash a chance at redemption, where does that fit in if he is actively trying to kill someone or push Kaladin toward suicide? Is that asking Kaladin or maybe Renarin, who has defensive and regenerative capabilities far beyond any IRL law enforcement agency, to try to talk him down again?
• When looking at justice, noting out that we have hugely unrealistic insights into Moash's internal thoughts, in addition to challenges of establishing culpability for one who has had been warped by Odium, comes questions of how the proposed justice would be enacted and by whom? Does it change if he has given up his Honorblade and is surrendering? If you wish Braise upon him, who would you ask to be his jailers? Unless you're offering suggestions to a possible analog to Dante's Inferno or Hades of Greek mythology who dolled out eternal punishments on the likes of Sisyphus. I'm not sure if one is ever mentioned for Roshar, beyond Braise itself, and we know a bit more about how that place works/doesn't work. 
• That said, it also seems likely that certain suggestions for Moash's fate were stated to get laughs, not in seriousness - but it may not have been received as such from people who believe in an afterlife judgement and took the comment at face value. Really though, my point is not to reignite one of those debates right here and now, but rather that it seemed that not everyone was visualizing the same circumstance or had necesarily expanded on the possible ramifications of what they proposed. Considering how difficult it is to define the scenario in the vs threads, don't be surprised if we have even more difficulty with emotionally charged scenarios like this one. Some might be answering as if Moash is coaxing Kaladin to suicide, some might be answering as if he's sitting blinded as last we saw him.

Lastly, at least in the context of Moash, I am not very good at guessing the core motive of why the other person is posting about Moash. I tried to guess the likely reasons people posted about Moash were, but I apparently didn't even touch the reason for a third of all the people who responded to the poll. That apparently means that for at least one out of every three people that posted about Moash, I didn't understand why they did it, didn't even get it in my top 7 guesses. I hope to find out these reasons, otherwise I'm unlikely to expand my understanding of people like Moash, how to deal with people like Moash, the conversation, or you my peers. All of these I find far more valuable than nailing down what Moash as a single fictional individual deserves.

Edited October 28, 2024 by Duxredux

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, Duxredux said:

thanks for the grammar check. If it's okay with you, I'll probably hold off on the option "people who comment to add book/WoB citations", since that's just more about being a friendly and helpful member of the community like you often, and less about Moash himself.

Of course that is fine with me, but may I suggest you address it in the first post of the new poll? Maybe something like "The poll is about why a Sharder is responding to Moash and his situation, if your post in the thread isn't about that (such as posting a reference) then please do not vote the poll since it may skew results."

Understanding our fellow Sharders and how they approach these stories is a great endeavor. 

Edited October 28, 2024 by Treamayne
SPAG

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

 

...

many are conflating him with IRL circumstances, people, issues, etc.. I don't think that this is a problem in of itself, as many others have noted in this thread, great literature often will make us think about how the themes apply in real life. Where it can cause friction is that this means not everyone is viewing Moash within the same context. Either not all have decided to conflate him with IRL issues, or we all have different IRL experiences that inform the way we view these issues. Obvious statements perhaps, but I think worth remembering and occasionally asking for clarifying questions. 

...

(Emphasis added)

I think these two lines truly reach to the heart of WHY it is impossible to approach the subject of Moash with anything other than debate (at least until Sanderson's ends the story). I don't expect that polling can work in a general sense for taking a fandom's metaphorical temperature on a "Moash."

Human beings tell fantastical stories, and particularly fantastical war-stories, for a lot of reasons, both personal and social, but they evolved to do it persistently as a species because it helps them teach each other how to react to and engage with circumstances wherein:

1) there may legitimately never be an acceptable, correct, moral, ethical, positive, or good resolution, and,

2) sitting out or refusing to engage may result in a summary death sentence by those who do.

The (intellectually) richest and most informative of fantastical stories make no effort to tell listeners what to see or how to behave, they simply demonstrate circumstances and consequences which are generally inspired by the storytellers observations, musings, and imaginative transformations on past, present, and future human history/behavior.

I realize that it may sound like I'm trying to "end" the debate, but I promise I am not. I'm only hoping to communicate that the debate cannot be ended, for the exact reasons you called out: having strong feelings one way or the other about Moash indicates that a reader has seen something within him or his circumstances that can't technically be fully reconciled by somebody else's explanation. They will all eventually reach closure on the dissonance within their own mind due to that fact, assuming the story gets finished eventually and they all keep reading/listening to the end, but even that closure will take a unique shape and form in their minds.

I certainly don't object to anyone trying to poll or experiment on seeing how people want Moash's arc to end. But I would caution against ever trying to suggest how it should end, if that makes sense.  yours was a very well articulated summary though, I do have to give you that.

Edited October 28, 2024 by hwiles

[Duxredux he/him]

On 10/28/2024 at 6:21 AM, hwiles said:

(Emphasis added)

I think these two lines truly reach to the heart of WHY it is impossible to approach the subject of Moash with anything other than debate (at least until Sanderson's ends the story). I don't expect that polling can work in a general sense for taking a fandom's metaphorical temperature on a "Moash."

Human beings tell fantastical stories, and particularly fantastical war-stories, for a lot of reasons, both personal and social, but they evolved to do it persistently as a species because it helps them teach each other how to react to and engage with circumstances wherein:

1) there may legitimately be never be an acceptable, correct, moral, ethical, positive, or good resolution, and,

2) sitting out or refusing to engage may result in a summary death.

The (intellectually) richest and most informative of fantastical stories make no effort to tell listeners what to see or how to behave, they simply demonstrate circumstances and consequences which are generally inspired by the storytellers observations, musings, and imaginative transformations on past, present, and future human history/behavior.

I realize that it may sound like I'm trying to "end" the debate, but I promise I am not. I'm only hoping to communicate that the debate cannot be ended, for the exact reasons you called out: having strong feelings one way or the other about Moash indicates that a reader has seen something within him or his circumstances that can't technically be fully reconciled by somebody else's explanation. They will all eventually reach closure on the dissonance within their own mind due to that fact, assuming the story gets finished eventually and they all keep reading/listening to the end, but even that closure will take a unique shape and form in their minds.

I certainly don't object to anyone trying to poll or experiment on seeing how people want Moash's arc to end. But I would caution against ever trying to suggest how it should end, if that makes sense.  yours was a very well articulated summary though, I do have to give you that.

Ah, perhaps I miswrote. The poll was never about conclusively deciding anything, it was to facilitate a better understanding among participants in the conversation. It was trying to create greater transparency. Beyond that, I fully recognize that I have very little control over how any other person on this forum acts or thinks, but I can also hope that someone has good ideas on how we can develop better frameworks for deep conversations on complex topics - if indeed that is what the forum values, which seems likely from the poll. 

In many ways, the poll is to give everyone a better understanding of the largely anonymous person behind the username and pfp. In other words, while quoting you:

On 10/24/2024 at 3:43 PM, hwiles said:

And, for better or worse, no person anywhere is capable of hating something that they fully understand. They can still hurt or kill it if they choose to, but they cannot still hate it.

I expect we have a greater understanding of Moash than our understanding of the other general members on this forum. The purpose of the thread is to raise that understanding of the other person - particularly when we disagree vehemently. I hope some of the really smart people on this forum will pull out insights that I can't.

Edit: wow, that didn't come out the way I had intended. Above section rephrased with italicized.

Edited November 12, 2024 by Duxredux
clarity

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

11 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

Ah, perhaps I miswrote. The poll was never about conclusively deciding anything, it was to facilitate a better understanding among participants in the conversation. It was trying to create greater transparency. Beyond that, I fully recognize that I have very little control over how any other person on this forum acts or thinks, but I can also hope that someone has good ideas on how we can develop better frameworks for deep conversations on complex topics - if indeed that is what the forum values, which seems likely from the poll. 

In many ways, the poll is to give everyone a better understanding of the largely anonymous person behind the username and pfp. In other words, while quoting you:

I expect we have a greater understanding of Moash than the other members on this forum. The purpose of the thread is to raise that understanding of the other person - particularly when we disagree vehemently. I hope some of the really smart people on this forum will pull out insights that I can't.

Oh my! Nope, i don't think you miswrote and please do not stop doing exactly what you're doing, that was in zero way intended as a critique or criticism, I only try to speak for the benefit of anyone else who happens to roll in. Probably one of my most annoying habits. I've read your posts; you're beloved in the community.

[Mattel]

On 10/24/2024 at 10:12 AM, Lewis Nethur said:

Because...Sanderson finished the Wheel of Time...he understands that evil and despicable people exist for a reason, and that reason is not so that they can be tortured by "good" people...

That said, Moash is a raging dumpster fire of a human being; it just isn't totally his fault.

Actually, I would argue that it is all his fault. No one forced Moash to do anything, he was the one who chose to give into the darkness and temptation of Odium. He chose himself to take the easier route of not dealing with his emotions. If you are in a situation with a negative outcome, and there was something you could have done to stop said outcome from happening: you are at fault. Yes, you can say that Odium is the true problem, and that is true. But Odium has yet to force someone to do something. He didn't even force Dalinar to choose him. 

 

I think part of the reason Moash is so fun to debate, is because he is a good guy turned bad guy, that we get to know and understand all too well, but is still a character that operates within a very moral gray zone. There is just so much to talk about.

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

5 hours ago, Mattel said:

Actually, I would argue that it is all his fault. No one forced Moash to do anything, he was the one who chose to give into the darkness and temptation of Odium. He chose himself to take the easier route of not dealing with his emotions. If you are in a situation with a negative outcome, and there was something you could have done to stop said outcome from happening: you are at fault. Yes, you can say that Odium is the true problem, and that is true. But Odium has yet to force someone to do something. He didn't even force Dalinar to choose him. 

 

I think part of the reason Moash is so fun to debate, is because he is a good guy turned bad guy, that we get to know and understand all too well, but is still a character that operates within a very moral gray zone. There is just so much to talk about.

Eh. Agree to disagree. I cannot (will not) fault a character like Moash for behaving badly in response to stimuli that were technically out of his control and would reasonably drive most men to insanity or violence.

[Mags she/they]

To risk oversimplifying things and taking a step too far backward, I see the debate as just a common facet of fandom and interpretation of fiction. When a large group of people are presented with a character who is complicated at best, we're bound to see extreme differences of opinion and interpretations, so I've ignored most of the discussion assuming it was the same thing I've seen several times in other places.

Spoiler

There's also a trend of misinterpretation and toxicity around these sorts of debates, which is another reason I've avoided it though I haven't seen it in this debate specifically.

As for my opinion on him, I found him honestly very forgettable. I never had a strong opinion on him and am surprised to find that I'm somewhat alone on that. As I believe I've said before, I don't think this is a fault of Brandon's writing. 

The way I see it, Moash is a character foil created specifically to explore and define Kaladin's character (and other facets of the story, if less directly), and because of that I never really gave him much thought beyond comparison to Kaladin. Moash's political extremism in RoW, his acceptance of Odium, even the way he provokes Kaladin's mental health issues are all ways to contrast Kaladin and add to Kaladin's arc. Moash is the version of Kaladin who gave into anger, depression, apathy, etc.

I always felt like he's not really a character written to get the audience to feel something, but is instead written to aid the character who does make the audience feel something (again, Kaladin). I never felt like he was written to be likable or hate-able, he's just there--and maybe that's why interpretations vary so much.

Even without Kaladin as part of the discussion, on a larger narrative level it just makes sense to have a character like this. Often when portraying different moral standpoints and asking questions of morality as part of the narrative, you want to make sure you include characters who fall into a wide range of moral standpoints so that you can explore different perspectives and outcomes. We have several redemption arc characters within this story, so it only makes sense to also have a corruption arc to balance things out. That's not to say it'd be poor writing to redeem him, it shouldn't matter what his fate is because the corruption side of things has already been represented 'on-screen.'

He's a narrative tool. A parallel, a foil, etc. Nothing more to me, personally. If he get's a redemption arc, I think that's cool. If he dies a horrible death I won't cry. 

My personal opinion on what should happen to him? He should be treated with mercy because everyone deserves that, but he should also see the consequences of his actions. If he does have a redemption arc, he should spend his time trying to fix what he's broken. However, that's just my real-world moral standpoint. If a different outcome serves the narrative better, then it serves the narrative better.

What do I think Brandon is going to do with him? I think either paths would work, though a redemption makes more sense to me for the story's overall themes. I could honestly see it going both ways, though.

Edited November 11, 2024 by J. Magi

[Returned he/him]

16 hours ago, Lewis Nethur said:

Eh. Agree to disagree. I cannot (will not) fault a character like Moash for behaving badly in response to stimuli that were technically out of his control and would reasonably drive most men to insanity or violence.

Do you correspondingly not credit a character like Kaladin for behaving well in response to stimuli that were technically out of his control and would reasonably drive most men to insanity or violence? Relatedly, do you have a heuristic for when stimuli make a decision count or not count, in terms of personal responsibility or morality?

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

8 minutes ago, Returned said:

Do you correspondingly not credit a character like Kaladin for behaving well in response to stimuli that were technically out of his control and would reasonably drive most men to insanity or violence? Relatedly, do you have a heuristic for when stimuli make a decision count or not count, in terms of personal responsibility or morality?

Goodness doesn't need to be forgiven, it is it's own reward.

And no, I shamelessly and unabashedly judge by feel.

[Returned he/him]

1 hour ago, Lewis Nethur said:

Goodness doesn't need to be forgiven, it is it's own reward.

I mentioned credit, not blame; I wouldn't expect goodness to need to be forgiven either!

My question was aimed more at seeing if your judgement runs more along a good/evil axis, with responsibility-mitigating features on the evil side only, or more of a noble/base axis, which is more about capacity to resist impulse. Or some other mode of alignment, there are obviously more options.

As for the shameless and unabashed judgement by feel, you obviously can and should approach things however seems best to you. I was trying to get additional detail for further discussion, not to make you justify yourself or feel bad. If your assessments are based on your internal, case-by-case feelings then there won't be more to discuss in that direction, which is also an answer to the question. So I won't badger you with additional chatter along that line. 

[IcedOutPenguin He/Him]

Don't hate me for what I'm about to say.

Don't look if you don't want to, this isn't a spoiler (sorry if I'm not supposed to use it for this) just a very up-front opinion, if you get upset easily don't read it.

Spoiler

Moash killed Elokar, and for that alone, putting aside my seething hatered for justice and honor, he deserves death. I hope there is no redemption for Moash, everytime he is mentioned I just feel... Blehhhhh. I hope Moash dies. The end.

Sorry if you read that...  don't hate me.

[Returned he/him]

On 11/15/2024 at 7:53 PM, IcedOutPenguin said:

Sorry if you read that...  don't hate me.

Why would anyone hate you for reporting something that happens so explicitly in the book? As for the specific opinion in the spoiler tag, could you elaborate on why that particular victim is so decisive for you? I'm just curious why that one provokes such a strong reaction for you.

[IcedOutPenguin He/Him]

2 hours ago, Returned said:

Why would anyone hate you for reporting something that happens so explicitly in the book? As for the specific opinion in the spoiler tag, could you elaborate on why that particular victim is so decisive for you? I'm just curious why that one provokes such a strong reaction for you.

It is because that character was doing something significant when Moash killed them and that also caused another certain character to be depressed for the next few chapters. They just wanted to protect, both of them.

 

[Returned he/him]

20 hours ago, IcedOutPenguin said:

It is because that character was doing something significant when Moash killed them and that also caused another certain character to be depressed for the next few chapters. They just wanted to protect, both of them.

I definitely felt the first piece myself, it was a very poignant moment and brutally disappointing. I felt like it was an almost Kaladin-level character development arc, without even the POV chapters Kaladin had, and I really was hoping for success. I have a different read on Kaladin's reactions to the event but I can certainly respect your view that the consequences to him make Moash irredeemable.

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

On 11/15/2024 at 8:53 PM, IcedOutPenguin said:

Don't hate me for what I'm about to say.

Don't look if you don't want to, this isn't a spoiler (sorry if I'm not supposed to use it for this) just a very up-front opinion, if you get upset easily don't read it.

  Hide contents

Moash killed Elokar, and for that alone, putting aside my seething hatered for justice and honor, he deserves death. I hope there is no redemption for Moash, everytime he is mentioned I just feel... Blehhhhh. I hope Moash dies. The end.

Sorry if you read that...  don't hate me.

I could never hate a fellow sharder... 

 

That said, I hope that you won't be offended if I express the (personal) opinion that your belief that Moash deserves Death are painfully misguided.

I assure you that his death would not deter or prevent a single future crime, Travesty, or grievance that he doesn't commit himself; Noone who knows who he is on Roshar looks to Moash as a role model, period fullstop. They use him as a human weapon, or regard him as an active threat...

He sold his soul to an Odium who was a sociopath...why not let the new Odium, who (God help us all...) is an empath, give back that pain? Let him be a ghostblood, let him mine rocks on a distant world. But don't...don't wish death on a man who has nothing...even the worst possible Odium who could ever exist would never have done that...=/