Why do we debate Moash?

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

I wrote something about Moash when I (first..I was definitely late to the overall discussions) saw people making extremely judgmental and definitive statements about him (a fictional character). Judgmental thoughts about fictional characters are not only common, that's generally the point of them. The vitriolic definitive statements..not so much. 

My reasons for writing about Moash were myriad, but I'll lay out the top reasons that come to mind.

My biggest reason was that people were talking about Moash in ways that were/are dehumanizing and that's extremely problematic. He's a fictional character, yes, and as such doesn't have any way of being hurt by what any of us say about him. We however, are living breathing people. People most certainly do monstrous things, and those people should face consequences for those actions. Some do, some don't (From a physical perspective, sidestepping various religious thoughts on the matter).
While Moash does commit violent, violating, betraying, murderous actions...most of us reading him don't have experience with anyone who's committed betrayals so dark and dastardly. What most of us do know, is what it's like to be betrayed and/or to betray others. We, living breathing people reflect off of Moash in myriad ways. As has been pointed out multiple times above and in previous posts, the way(s) in which each reader reflects can be near infinitely varied, and that variation can lead to better understanding of our fellow humans and just be really enjoyable in general. One of my biggest problems with dehumanizing Moash (other than we should never dehumanize anyone because it only leads to bad things) is that in so doing, many people were inadvertently launching attacks on any other person who saw themselves (even a little) in Moash.

It's a pretty safe bet that none of us will ever kill a king, or murder several people just to test out a weapon and to make our former best friends feel psychological torture, and as such it's a very easy thing to separate yourself from someone as evil and terrible and wicked and cruel as Moash, because he isn't a real person. But, all of us have most likely had some experience(s) that may feel something in the vein of what Moash has felt. Crippling pain, soul sucking grief, fury and rage at injustice (especially from the powerful and/or privileged who get away with their actions), and some level of hatred towards another/others. If you are so lucky as to never have had any experience in these areas, I honestly rejoice for you, because that's wonderful, but know that you are most likely in the minority.
It is in that space that people have expressed to me feeling connection/reflection of who Moash is at a base level (whether good or bad, in part but not whole), and because of that can feel targeted by extreme rhetoric about Moash. To some extent, to heap recriminations on him as a fictional character makes sense. Most of the criticisms, complaints, and shouts of anger at/about Moash, that I've read over the years, are valid and unproblematic. I recognize that many folks may read this and think, "People should know I'm not talking about them when I demand Moash's death, torture, suffering, eternal exile, etc" and to some extent you're may be correct. That said, feelings and trauma both, care not at all about what we should know. You may not intend harm in the slightest, but if you are causing others harm anyway, then there is a problem that person(s) causing harm, needs to correct. I first posted about Moash, and still do, in defense of treating humans as humans (Basically sapient beings, as not all persons are humans in the Cosmere...fictional or not) with the basic respect all of us deserve, and not lowering ourselves by dehumanization, as well as not tearing others down, intentionally or accidentally. I wanted folks to think deeply and reflect on what their strong words, thoughts, and opinions may do to others around them, and to be careful in how they express those thoughts, as to not go around causing pain to others, because they are angry about Moash.

 

Another main reason I've commented and made posts about Moash in the past, is because of the certainty with which people often post about how Moash definitely won't or definitely will get a redemption arc, and all of the reasons those two camps think support why it is written in stone. Theorizing as to what will happen and why is a cornerstone of this site, but what makes no sense to me (and is pretty much unproductive) is declaring something will or won't happen when Brandon himself has stated many times that things change before they're published. This is a known fact. Until it's on paper and on the shelves (and even that changed once with WoR), nothing is 100% set. Theorizing is great, and giving your reasons for your hypothesis as to what's to come is also great, but when it comes to Moash (moreso than just about any other character/topic in the Cosmere), folks tend to get awfully definitive as to what will and won't happen, and obviously that is biased with personal feeling(s), or there wouldn't be such strong emotions connected to those declarations. So yeah, theorizing is a vital part of this site, but unless you have talked with Brandon one-on-one and he's confirmed to you that there's 0% chance of any deviation as to what he's going to do with Moash, then your declarative statement (that anyone who's read literally any Moash post, most likely, already knows) is going to cause argument(s) which at best, is unproductive.

 

And lastly, and this connects in theme with the previous paragraph, there are folks out there who vehemently argue that there is 0% chance that Moash will choose any kind of redemption..that he doesn't deserve it..that if that happens they'll (stop reading Sanderson/rage/etc). Same thing for team 100% redemption for Moash. As has been stated above, and many many times by folks for many years (obviously myself included) there is no fictional person that Sanderson writes that's so far gone, that there isn't a chance of their redemption. I don't include this to say whether or not I think it will or won't happen with Moash, because that's not the point. The point is there is a non-zero chance that Moash will have some sort of redemption and a non-zero chance that he won't, and if Sanderson writes it, I'll be here to read it and have strong feelings about it, and will post and comment my thoughts about it here.

Ultimately, if you want to stop reading Brandon's stuff then you obviously can, but to rage dump over a work of art that many other people enjoy (because of something that hasn't even happened yet) is less than unproductive, and makes it a bit more difficult (as the rage pile grows) to enjoy. 

[TousenShadowForged he/him]

People hate moash because he's what People would be if they were in his life. It breaks their nonsense of "immersion" probably the same who side with shallan  calling jasnah a murderer for taking out those scum in the alleys