Moash Redemption Arc?

[PiousMongoose Depressed]

It may just be me, but I still like Moash, even after the events in RoW.  He’s a broken soul, crushed by his losses and the mistakes he has made.  I very much so hope that Sando gives him the redemption arc he deserves.

[Treamayne]

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2 hours ago, PiousMongoose said:

It may just be me, but I still like Moash, even after the events in RoW.  He’s a broken soul, crushed by his losses and the mistakes he has made.  I very much so hope that Sando gives him the redemption arc he deserves.

Please see some or all of these threads:

• Moash Redemption Arc??????
• Moash and Kaladin
• Szeth & Moash
• The Great Moash Controversy
• If Moash dies in SA5...
• Moash's Point of No Return

Hope that helps

[Duxredux he/him]

On 10/16/2024 at 6:44 AM, PiousMongoose said:

It may just be me, but I still like Moash, even after the events in RoW.  He’s a broken soul, crushed by his losses and the mistakes he has made.  I very much so hope that Sando gives him the redemption arc he deserves.

Yeah... you have a controversial opinion. You might be able to message Dan Wells who does a weekly podcast with Brandon and see if you can get one of his t-shirts (see below). Just uh... don't be surprised if people react strongly.

I think Brandon could pull it off, and I think there's sufficient groundwork currently in place for Moash to have a redemption arc, but... I suspect that Moash would need a tremendous amount of pain, suffering, and life-altering work for a decent fraction of the fandom to accept it or him.

Sometimes people turn their lives around, sometimes people don't. One of my favorite songs of redemption, "Amazing Grace", was written by a slave ship captain named John Newton who by his own testimony transported 20,000 slaves in his career. He wrote an autobiography denouncing his former profession, joined the clergy, and went blind later in life. He taught and counseled William Wilberforce, the member of the British Parlament who was instrumental in the abolition of the British slave trade over 50 years before the American Civil War. So, yes, people can change. Many do not.

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

2 hours ago, Duxredux said:

Yeah... you have a controversial opinion. You might be able to message Dan Wells who does a weekly podcast with Brandon and see if you can get one of his t-shirts (see below). Just uh... don't be surprised if people react strongly.

I think Brandon could pull it off, and I think there's sufficient groundwork currently in place for Moash to have a redemption arc, but... I suspect that Moash would need a tremendous amount of pain, suffering, and life-altering work for a decent fraction of the fandom to accept it or him.

Sometimes people turn their lives around, sometimes people don't. One of my favorite songs of redemption, "Amazing Grace", was written by a slave ship captain named John Newton who by his own testimony transported 20,000 slaves in his career. He wrote an autobiography denouncing his former profession, joined the clergy, and went blind later in life. He taught and counseled William Wilberforce, the member of the British Parlament who was instrumental in the abolition of the British slave trade over 50 years before the American Civil War. So, yes, people can change. Many do not.

I...do not like Moash either, but I would caution you from being too certain about any given fandom's capacity for forgiveness. Like you said, the groundwork is there. And, I would add, the grievances and his reactions to them that ultimately led to him being evil were...kind of valid from the perspective of several (certainly not all) popular real world philosophies on ethics and personal morality. He did basically betray kaladin...which...is very not good. They probably can't be friends or coworkers again even if they were under duress when it happened.

Just to play devil's advocate, and please do not feel obligated to entertain the question, because honestly I'm struggling to come up with an answer:

"What do you think could plausibly be a satisfying end to Moash's arc other than redemption and some form of reassignment/isolation away from the people he has hurt?"

(There doesn't seem to be anyone left who would be justified wishing to see him die from what I can understand so far. Most of the people involved in the crimes he committed, or who committed crimes against him, are dead I think.)

@PiousMongoose please don't choose this answer as any kind of head-cannon or realistic prediction, but i want to give your proposal 70/30 odds, even if i can't totally back it up.

Edited October 22, 2024 by hwiles

[Duxredux he/him]

3 hours ago, hwiles said:

Just to play devil's advocate, and please do not feel obligated to entertain the question, because honestly I'm struggling to come up with an answer:

"What do you think could plausibly be a satisfying end to Moash's arc other than redemption and some form of reassignment/isolation away from the people he has hurt?"

Depends. How satisfying are we talking about? We've had some rather ragged ends to character arcs already. Elhokar rather abruptly had his arc cut short halfway through the book. Eshonai's arc also was rather dismal. She fights Adolin, she loses by falling into the chasm while Bridge Four saves Adolin, and all her people are hosed - it only retroactively became triumphant. The story arc of ____ who was angry, bitter, vengeful, gave his allegiance to Odium and when he lost his usefulness he was discarded like crem could pretty well sum up Moash Lezian. Sadeas and Amaram also had rather ignominious deaths. There have been plenty of warmongers, murders, torturers, etc. over the years who have been killed over the years where people rejoiced - not because they gloried in their deaths, but because a terrible danger to friends, family, and community had been stopped - as likely would have been the case had the Blackthorn been defeated during the unification of Alethkar.

Quote

(There doesn't seem to be anyone left who would be justified wishing to see him die from what I can understand so far. Most of the people involved in the crimes he committed, or who committed crimes against him, are dead I think.)

So... where does Lirin who got thrown off of Urithiru on Moash's orders just to hurt Kaladin fit in? Bridge Four who lost Teft or Navani who had her son murdered as an act of regicide? Navani who got stabbed in the chest by Moash? Alethkar started a 5-year war for vengeance/genocide last time their king was assassinated - and it didn't really end but exploded into a global conflict with far greater stakes at the advent of the Everstorm. 

Again, some people change, some people don't, but if capital punishment exists in Alethkar, Moash has earned it. It will be at the mercy of a grieving mother who was herself attacked if he lives should he surrender himself to the Coalition. 

Edited October 22, 2024 by Duxredux

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

... 

Again, some people change, some people don't, but if capital punishment exists in Alethkar, Moash has earned it. It will be at the mercy of a grieving mother who was herself attacked if he lives should he surrender himself to the Coalition. 

This was good! I truly don't care if Moash lives or dies, so...I err towards he should probably be allowed to live.

But again...to play devil's advocate...

Does said grieving mother's complaints and suffering, given the greater context of her complicity, inaction, manipulations, deceits, and political maneuvering for personal advantage throughout said 5-year genocide, legitimately constitute a moral or ethical reason to wish death on a man fully 20 socio-economic classes below her station who was personally harmed, tortured, and enslaved by the authority of the crown? Or...like...would this just be an absurdly rich person trying to rub the face of an extremely poor and broken person who, against all odds, actually kinda managed to get even against her family when they thought they could do whatever they wanted, into the mud for petty revenge?

I'm really not sure. He doesn't legitimately seem to me to be "too powerful to be allowed to live." So...idk. imprisonment is inelegant, but would probably be safe and fine, his friends don't seem that Invested to come get him. Execution would be...lackluster.

Edit: sorry, alloy of Law spoiler tag added.

Spoiler

Miles was publicly executed; Moash is no Miles Hundred Lives.

Death in battle? I mean...that would honestly probably be a mercy for the man...

I like where your head is at though.

Edited October 22, 2024 by hwiles

[Duxredux he/him]

Not really my favorite debate method but... we'll see where this goes.

7 hours ago, hwiles said:

Does said grieving mother's complaints and suffering, given the greater context of her complicity, inaction, manipulations, deceits, and political maneuvering for personal advantage throughout said 5-year genocide, legitimately constitute a moral or ethical reason to wish death on a man fully 20 socio-economic classes below her station who was personally harmed, tortured, and enslaved by the authority of the crown? Or...like...would this just be an absurdly rich person trying to rub the face of an extremely poor and broken person who, against all odds, actually kinda managed to get even against her family when they thought they could do whatever they wanted, into the mud for petty revenge?

There are quite a few things here that are value judgements, which I won't deeply debate because I've seen too many of those run around in circles on the forum without either side coming to consensus. The counterpoint question though would be, what is the differences between Moash "getting even" and Navani's "petty revenge"? Does Moash's own moral framing vindicate him or invite retribution on his head for seeking to murder?

Another fact check stop here would be asking how much power or authority Navani actually had during Gavilar or Elhokar's reigns. During the first, Gavilar mocked her and hid his machinations. During the second, she was the court oddity, the mother of the king when the valid queen held court in Kholinar. Once she did gain power with her marriage to Dalinar, she solidified the coalition of monarchs, built airships, and kicked off an inventive Renaissance by sharing state technologies. Was she culpable for what Elhokar did to Moash and his family?

7 hours ago, hwiles said:

He doesn't legitimately seem to me to be "too powerful to be allowed to live."

If you had said that before he went blind, I would have laughed. He holds Jezrien's Honorblade, the most infamous weapon in recent Rosharan history, that tore through the defenses of nations and monarchies. It's basically impossible to stop the user of that Honorblade short of killing him, as he can still fly around even if the soul of his legs are severed with a Shardblade. Not even Urithiru's suppressive defenses could inhibit those abilities.

Beyond that, it's what Moash has chosen to do with the Blade: kill random bystanders just to provoke a reaction from those sworn to protect the defenseless. Unless you have suggestions on how to non-lethally stop him should he decide to go on a mass murder rampage again, he fits the bill for "too powerful to let live" if he retains the Honorblade. I'm not sure if he's less dangerous now that he's blind since he hasn't seemed to care about collateral damage when using a sword that can cut through almost anything. There are techniques that you could use to imprison him, but I'm not sure if anyone in the Coalition except Wit knows them.

 

Not everyone is the hero within their own story. It is not a good feeling to suddenly realize that you are the bully. That you are the person parents tell children to avoid or to not grow up to become. Full Cosmere spoilers:

Spoiler

There are plenty of people in the Cosmere who believe themselves to be evil. Everyone that has killed themselves while holding Nightblood.

There are plenty of IRL stories of people who had so much potential to do so much good, and then directed their energies towards causing pain and destruction instead. The story of the person who could have been a hero, but chose to reject self-reflection and change, to put it off until tomorrow, put off doing something about the guilt until tomorrow, until tomorrow, forever, unfortunately is as real as the redemption arc. No, it wouldn't be a satisfying ending, but that unease, discomfort, and wrongness is why it would work. Again, I think Brandon has laid the groundwork and will give Moash the choice to rise or fall, but it will be Moash's choice.

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

Not really my favorite debate method but... we'll see where this goes.

There are quite a few things here that are value judgements, which I won't deeply debate because I've seen too many of those run around in circles on the forum without either side coming to consensus. The counterpoint question though would be, what is the differences between Moash "getting even" and Navani's "petty revenge"? Does Moash's own moral framing vindicate him or invite retribution on his head for seeking to murder?

Another fact check stop here would be asking how much power or authority Navani actually had during Gavilar or Elhokar's reigns. During the first, Gavilar mocked her and hid his machinations. During the second, she was the court oddity, the mother of the king when the valid queen held court in Kholinar. Once she did gain power with her marriage to Dalinar, she solidified the coalition of monarchs, built airships, and kicked off an inventive Renaissance by sharing state technologies. Was she culpable for what Elhokar did to Moash and his family?

If you had said that before he went blind, I would have laughed. He holds Jezrien's Honorblade, the most infamous weapon in recent Rosharan history, that tore through the defenses of nations and monarchies. It's basically impossible to stop the user of that Honorblade short of killing him, as he can still fly around even if the soul of his legs are severed with a Shardblade. Not even Urithiru's suppressive defenses could inhibit those abilities.

Beyond that, it's what Moash has chosen to do with the Blade: kill random bystanders just to provoke a reaction from those sworn to protect the defenseless. Unless you have suggestions on how to non-lethally stop him should he decide to go on a mass murder rampage again, he fits the bill for "too powerful to let live" if he retains the Honorblade. I'm not sure if he's less dangerous now that he's blind since he hasn't seemed to care about collateral damage when using a sword that can cut through almost anything. There are techniques that you could use to imprison him, but I'm not sure if anyone in the Coalition except Wit knows them.

 

Not everyone is the hero within their own story. It is not a good feeling to suddenly realize that you are the bully. That you are the person parents tell children to avoid or to not grow up to become. Full Cosmere spoilers:

  Hide contents

There are plenty of people in the Cosmere who believe themselves to be evil. Everyone that has killed themselves while holding Nightblood.

There are plenty of IRL stories of people who had so much potential to do so much good, and then directed their energies towards causing pain and destruction instead. The story of the person who could have been a hero, but chose to reject self-reflection and change, to put it off until tomorrow, put off doing something about the guilt until tomorrow, until tomorrow, forever, unfortunately is as real as the redemption arc. No, it wouldn't be a satisfying ending, but that unease, discomfort, and wrongness is why it would work. Again, I think Brandon has laid the groundwork and will give Moash the choice to rise or fall, but it will be Moash's choice.

Oh gosh. Fair points, sure. I push back that Navani's pain is as much Moash's fault as the crimes against Moash are her fault is all. He's objectively a very bad man, no question. All someone needs to do to render him helpless as far as I'm aware is cut his sword arm with a shardblade while he's wielding and knock him unconscious with a rock though, so...I still don't think he's some kind of God or demon. Imposing in a duel? Yes. A terror to behold for any not of full radiant status? Definitely. But...two 4th ideal skybreakers should be able to beat him to death with Shard hammers without breaking a sweat while cracking jokes...

Never said he was a hero. He was probably always a bully. But...i grew up reading RJ's wheel of time. "No man can walk so long trapped in the darkness that he cannot find the light again." Cannonically, that specifically included blind men, war criminals, and murderers. Redemption doesn't necessarily mean to survive; lots of the redeemed die the same day they return...=/

Edited October 22, 2024 by hwiles

[Returned he/him]

I'm mostly worried about any redemption feeling arbitrary, much more so than having a strong opinion on whether or not Moash is redeemed. I want a good journey, regardless of the destination!

The thing with Moash is that he consistently makes decisions which are exactly opposite anything that we might call redemptive. He's not just "not redeemed", he's continuing to make choices that take him farther from redemption. He can start making different, better choices at any time (that's a common thing for Radiants in the first place), and so the issue isn't whether or not it's technically impossible as whether or not Moash will do it. What would prompt such a change, and how plausible would it feel for Moash to completely shift how he views things and makes his decisions? Moash has clearly been developed as a villain and in many ways an anti-Radiant

We have some complicating issues, such as Odium's influence on Moash affecting his moral responsibility for what he's done, futuresight and Fortune influencing his situation and behaviors, etc. But I think that generally people don't want Moash to be redeemed because they feel that, if he is, he won't be appropriately punished for his bad actions. People who favor the redemption seem to feel that Moash in some sense deserved to do all the horrible things that he's done, and so further punishment is inappropriate, or are committed to the idea that anyone can be redeemed and so we should always hope for that.

I, personally, view it narratively more than anything since he's a character in a series of novels (as opposed to a real person). For a Moash redemption arc to be satisfying he'd almost certainly need a lot of screen time, likely as a POV character, and I don't really want that. Moash-as-Vyre is barely a character any more, we've seen a lot of him, and there are other characters that are more interesting to me. He could pull off a last-minute key action that saves the books' heroes, particularly if he dies in the process, but "at the last minute, less than 100% evil" isn't much of a redemption. Further, many of the heroic characters in the books are already moving through redemption arcs and it balances the story for someone to make a different set of choices. Maybe Malata will serve a role like this, too, but variety seems important to me-- not everyone overcomes their issues and becomes Radiant.

Ultimately I don't think that Moash "deserves" redemption unless and until he starts trying to be redeemed and so far he has done the exact opposite at every opportunity. His circumstances are tragic but his response to them has been consistently monstrous. I'm not inclined to preemptively grant him absolution even though I can extend some compassion for his ill treatment.

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

Who knows? Maybe he'll just ditch Roshar and become an interplanetary criminal on the run

Most of the Radiants simply can't ever leave the system.

Edit: Minor sixth of Dusk flag just to be safe...

Spoiler

If there is one thing we know about era4 Scadrians, it's that they love gathering Intel on foreign highly Invested worlds. Maybe some pirates can pick him up.

 

Edited October 22, 2024 by hwiles