CRAZY idea about Odium's Champion, and 'voidbringers'

[elihaun]

This is stupid, but... could gavilar be the new champion of Odium?  Yes, he died, but we know that people can live after death (Kelsier is the main example, as well as the heralds).  could Odium have grabbed Gavilar before he streaked into the beyond?  

 

I also think that the fused are not singers.  I have thought from the beginning that they are humans.  I think that the shin were welcomed into the planet by honor from their home on ashen, but that the REST of the humans were invited in by cultivation from the horn eater peaks from other planets (the 'making children from the mud' creation story sounds a lot like that could be the reason).  heck, the old odium was even said to look shin.

[CtrlAltDepressed]

1 minute ago, elihaun said:

This is stupid, but... could gavilar be the new champion of Odium?

I have long believed this to be possible though I will say it seems unlikely. We would need a good bit of setup to make this work I think. 

[earthexile]

One of the things that Zahel said to Kaladin is that a person needs to be Invested for their shadow to linger and get manipulated, if I remember right. And the Stormfather says to Eshonai that the reason he's able to take her on her brief exploration of the world is that she was Invested when she died. 

What we don't know is whether Gavilar managed to get Invested at all. And if he did, it wasn't in a way that let him do anything special about Szeth.

[elihaun]

14 hours ago, earthexile said:

One of the things that Zahel said to Kaladin is that a person needs to be Invested for their shadow to linger and get manipulated, if I remember right. And the Stormfather says to Eshonai that the reason he's able to take her on her brief exploration of the world is that she was Invested when she died. 

What we don't know is whether Gavilar managed to get Invested at all. And if he did, it wasn't in a way that let him do anything special about Szeth.

Gavilar also had void light.  Heck, Kallidin had stormlight for months before he said the words or knew what to do consciously.  It would not be a stretch that, even without saying the words, Gavilar could have been invested just due to his budding bond to the stormfather.  But if Odium was watching (which I assume he was, as olum the voidspren knew what he was trying to do) HE could have saved him if he desired, as fuzz often welcomed people when they died.  It also takes a strong force of will, which kelsier and gavilar both have.

 

I know it is not likely, but it IS possible, right?  

[earthexile]

Oh sure. And it'd be a great twist, especially for Dalinar since he credits his brother with so much of his own growth and honor. Dalinar started reading a book that completely changed his life because of Gavilar, and he probably thinks Gavilar was thinking these kinds of thoughts on the night he died, while Dalinar was getting hammered and living in a blur of traumatized depression. He doesn't know that Gavilar was still every inch the miserable, selfish, cruel bastard. When Navani has started to say so, Dalinar doesn't want to hear about it.

Facing his brother would be disturbing enough, but facing the reality of who his brother was, that's even more so. 

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

59 minutes ago, earthexile said:

Oh sure. And it'd be a great twist, especially for Dalinar since he credits his brother with so much of his own growth and honor. Dalinar started reading a book that completely changed his life because of Gavilar, and he probably thinks Gavilar was thinking these kinds of thoughts on the night he died, while Dalinar was getting hammered and living in a blur of traumatized depression. He doesn't know that Gavilar was still every inch the miserable, selfish, cruel bastard. When Navani has started to say so, Dalinar doesn't want to hear about it.

Facing his brother would be disturbing enough, but facing the reality of who his brother was, that's even more so. 

I don't think it's possible, the early Interlude showed that Odium can only affect people who have 'given themselves' to him. Even if Gavilar was Invested at the time of his death due to his budding Bond with Stormfather, he very clearly wasn't that Invested, no glowing or anything. We know that people who aren't Invested get pulled to the Beyond in a matter of seconds, I wouldn't say that Gavilar, Bond or not, could have lasted more than a minute.

Maybe Odium could have talked to him in that time, but he would need to convince Gavilar to join him very quickly, which granted probably wouldn't be very hard since Gavilar wants to be immortal and not die. 

Actually thinking on it, there is a Death Rattle about brothers:

Spoiler

 

I'm standing over the body of a brother. I'm weeping. Is that his blood or mine? What have we done?

The 'Is that his blood or mine' is the part that stands out to me, since that could be reference to a fight between brothers.

Storm it, now I'm starting to think that this could be plausible. Though I'd much prefer if we had more foreshadowing on this. Unless the prologue showing his desire for immortality is the foreshadowing? I need to stop convincing myself. It shouldn't fit, but the pieces are starting to line up for me!

[coolsnow7]

2 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

I don't think it's possible, the early Interlude showed that Odium can only affect people who have 'given themselves' to him. Even if Gavilar was Invested at the time of his death due to his budding Bond with Stormfather, he very clearly wasn't that Invested, no glowing or anything. We know that people who aren't Invested get pulled to the Beyond in a matter of seconds, I wouldn't say that Gavilar, Bond or not, could have lasted more than a minute.

Maybe Odium could have talked to him in that time, but he would need to convince Gavilar to join him very quickly, which granted probably wouldn't be very hard since Gavilar wants to be immortal and not die. 

Actually thinking on it, there is a Death Rattle about brothers:

  Hide contents

 

I'm standing over the body of a brother. I'm weeping. Is that his blood or mine? What have we done?

The 'Is that his blood or mine' is the part that stands out to me, since that could be reference to a fight between brothers.

Storm it, now I'm starting to think that this could be plausible. Though I'd much prefer if we had more foreshadowing on this. Unless the prologue showing his desire for immortality is the foreshadowing? I need to stop convincing myself. It shouldn't fit, but the pieces are starting to line up for me!

I think 5 prologues focusing on Gavilar’s death, culminating in one where we find out that everyone’s perception of him is completely wrong, that he’s much closer to Odium than Honor personality-wise, that he craves immortality, and titled “To Live” is some solid foreshadowing!

To top that off, I direct you to the beginning of (IIRC) chapter 13, where Dalinar muses for a paragraph about how if Gavilar was here he could handle all this better, and then says “But Gavilar was dead.”

[The Stick]

3 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

I don't think it's possible, the early Interlude showed that Odium can only affect people who have 'given themselves' to him. Even if Gavilar was Invested at the time of his death due to his budding Bond with Stormfather, he very clearly wasn't that Invested, no glowing or anything. We know that people who aren't Invested get pulled to the Beyond in a matter of seconds, I wouldn't say that Gavilar, Bond or not, could have lasted more than a minute.

Maybe Odium could have talked to him in that time, but he would need to convince Gavilar to join him very quickly, which granted probably wouldn't be very hard since Gavilar wants to be immortal and not die. 

Actually thinking on it, there is a Death Rattle about brothers:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I'm standing over the body of a brother. I'm weeping. Is that his blood or mine? What have we done?

The 'Is that his blood or mine' is the part that stands out to me, since that could be reference to a fight between brothers.

Storm it, now I'm starting to think that this could be plausible. Though I'd much prefer if we had more foreshadowing on this. Unless the prologue showing his desire for immortality is the foreshadowing? I need to stop convincing myself. It shouldn't fit, but the pieces are starting to line up for me!

I have to disagree with the given to him bit. We know that not one whit of Kelsier had any sort of relation or Connection to Preservation or his Intent, but still managed to be Invested as CS. Maybe it works differently for Odium, but I don't really see why.

[coolsnow7]

13 minutes ago, The Stick said:

I have to disagree with the given to him bit. We know that not one whit of Kelsier had any sort of relation or Connection to Preservation or his Intent, but still managed to be Invested as CS. Maybe it works differently for Odium, but I don't really see why.

Well we have that scene where Odium wants to save the Riran child dying and Cultivation reminds him that he can not. So there are limitations placed on Odium’s interference that are different than Preservation/Ruin constantly blocking each other. Still, I agree with you that the objection isn’t strong - Taravangian was able to give himself over to Odium and thus negate Honor’s protections. I see no reason why Gavilar couldn’t do the same thing.

[Dreamwa1ker she/her]

5 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Actually thinking on it, there is a Death Rattle about brothers:

  Hide contents

 

I'm standing over the body of a brother. I'm weeping. Is that his blood or mine? What have we done?

The 'Is that his blood or mine' is the part that stands out to me, since that could be reference to a fight between brothers.

I like this take on this death rattle of it being Gavilar and Dalinar, vs my current fear of it being Adolin and Kaladin now that Dalinar is making him heir and Kaladin's thought about them being brothers now 

[Master Silver]

I do hope we get a Dalinar vs Gavilar. And I hope Gavilar unmasks himself so that it is clear what he became.

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

3 hours ago, Dreamwa1ker said:

I like this take on this death rattle of it being Gavilar and Dalinar, vs my current fear of it being Adolin and Kaladin now that Dalinar is making him heir and Kaladin's thought about them being brothers now 

I don't think so, Adolin has no desire for a throne after all, Dalinar offered him to become king of Alethkar and he refused it, which led to Jasnah becoming queen.

So if Adolin and Kaladin did ever come to blows, it seems very unlikely that heirship would be the cause. 

[feruchemicalrockband]

While I don't think Gavilar exists anymore in the cognitive realm, I could see him existing in a lot of ways in the spiritual, where Dalinar will be going in book 5. Seeing as it blends time together, and some of Dalinar's other visions have taken place in a strange place outside of time, some kind of appearance by Gavilar will probably happen.

Of course, we can't make any sort of guesses as to how the spiritual realm works yet as we really don't know anything about it. Dalinar's goal in book 5 will be to get to Honor's shard, and he'll probably be using the Stormfather's connection to Honor to get there, and since the Stormfaker theory is pretty dead it would be funny if we stopped by the prologue one last time.

[Dreamwa1ker she/her]

On 10/11/2024 at 7:07 PM, JustQuestin2004 said:

So if Adolin and Kaladin did ever come to blows, it seems very unlikely that heirship would be the cause. 

Oh the comment about making him his heir was more that Kaladin literally thinks to himself that would make him and Adolin brothers, which means they could be the brothers in the death rattle. My fear is not about them fighting over title/heirship but rather that they end up being the opposing champions in the contest (since there are some Adolin is Odium's champion theories going around)

Edited October 14, 2024 by Dreamwa1ker

[Moirne she/her]

On 10/11/2024 at 8:16 PM, feruchemicalrockband said:

While I don't think Gavilar exists anymore in the cognitive realm, I could see him existing in a lot of ways in the spiritual, where Dalinar will be going in book 5. Seeing as it blends time together, and some of Dalinar's other visions have taken place in a strange place outside of time, some kind of appearance by Gavilar will probably happen.

Of course, we can't make any sort of guesses as to how the spiritual realm works yet as we really don't know anything about it. Dalinar's goal in book 5 will be to get to Honor's shard, and he'll probably be using the Stormfather's connection to Honor to get there, and since the Stormfaker theory is pretty dead it would be funny if we stopped by the prologue one last time.

I could definitely see one of the visions Dalinar encounters later being Stormfather’s conversation with Gavilar on the night of his death, or even more excerpts from their relationship. So I do think Dalinar will eventually confront the fact that his brother was not the person he thought, even without Gavilar being alive.