Realmatic Blockages

[Duxredux he/him]

Hypothesis: Mistwraiths, Reod Elantrians, Parshmen, and Heralds all suffer from Realmatic blockages that cripples their ability to function. Mistwraiths are the confirmed case, where they have a block between their Cognitive and Physical aspects that leaves them as mindless creatures of Instinct. Reod Elantrians were in an in-between state where the Shaod would begin their transformation but due to the mostly invalid Rao Aon forming the city, the transformation was unable to run to completion, leaving them invalid targets for any other Aon. Next the more speculative cases.

I suspect that what happened to the Parshmen was very similar to the Elantrians when the chasm made them all invalid targets for AonDor's power. I suspect that when Ba-Ado-Mishram was captured by the Radiants, the "Invested hardware/Connection/thingy" that let BAM grant forms of power was left in place - but was unable to complete the process of granting forms of power. What was left was an entire people left with that invalid connector - unable to adopt any form for a people that had made a symbiotic relationship with Roshar's native spren. I suspect the Everstorm tweaked that invalid Connection by realigning them to Odium (perhaps Odium took back BAM's influence, I'm not sure on the mechanics).

As for the Heralds, I suspect that on top of the natural damages thousands upon thousands of years of torture will do to a psyche, I suspect that each either deliberately or subconsciously in desperation set up blockages between their minds or emotions and their body that was tortured. They straddled a line between functionality and experiencing trauma no human could ever survive. This is why in part when the Heralds touch the Spiritual Realm as Radiants swear Oaths, this blockage is temporarily bridged to bring even Taln to lucidity. I suspect that healing the Heralds likely would require removing, bridging, or circumventing that gap.

I don't think this is what will happen, but I wonder if placing an F-Copper spike in Taln (which would be nearly impossible without him reflexively annihilating whoever threatened him like that) would forcefully reconnect his mind to his body and bring him to lucidity in addition to a method to compartmentalize his millenia of suffering. Didn't expect to come up with therapeutic Hemalurgy when I started this.

Thoughts? Any other Realmatic blockages or methods to remove or circumvent them that people can think of?

[therunner he/him]

I think this has merit.
 

7 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

I suspect that what happened to the Parshmen was very similar to the Elantrians when the chasm made them all invalid targets for AonDor's power. I suspect that when Ba-Ado-Mishram was captured by the Radiants, the "Invested hardware/Connection/thingy" that let BAM grant forms of power was left in place - but was unable to complete the process of granting forms of power. What was left was an entire people left with that invalid connector - unable to adopt any form for a people that had made a symbiotic relationship with Roshar's native spren. I suspect the Everstorm tweaked that invalid Connection by realigning them to Odium (perhaps Odium took back BAM's influence, I'm not sure on the mechanics).

For the Parshmen, I would note that somehow they became Connected to the lands they were in when the Everstorm hit them. We have Alethi-like Singers Kal meets, Thaylen Singers who steal ships and start using them, Azish Singers who immediately petition government for illegally withholding wages, etc. Additionally, they assumed various random forms.

This to me suggests (in conjuction with your theory) that Everstorm removed that broken/invalid connector to BAM, and the resulting gap was filled with what was 'natural', Connection to land that was around them (similar to what blank Connection does) + any spren they could take into gemheart.

10 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

As for the Heralds, I suspect that on top of the natural damages thousands upon thousands of years of torture will do to a psyche, I suspect that each either deliberately or subconsciously in desperation set up blockages between their minds or emotions and their body that was tortured. They straddled a line between functionality and experiencing trauma no human could ever survive. This is why in part when the Heralds touch the Spiritual Realm as Radiants swear Oaths, this blockage is temporarily bridged to bring even Taln to lucidity. I suspect that healing the Heralds likely would require removing, bridging, or circumventing that gap.

I don't think this is what will happen, but I wonder if placing an F-Copper spike in Taln (which would be nearly impossible without him reflexively annihilating whoever threatened him like that) would forcefully reconnect his mind to his body and bring him to lucidity in addition to a method to compartmentalize his millenia of suffering. Didn't expect to come up with therapeutic Hemalurgy when I started this.

While there is magical component to Heralds madness, it is not entire story. So even if there is blockage partially causing the madness, there is still underlying (and horrible) trauma of Desolations.

Also, other Cognitive Shadows could start going crazy overtime, as Hoid and Vasher imply, so blockage is probably not the culprit. (unless we consider lack of Connection to Physical Realm a kind of blockage)

[Treamayne]

17 minutes ago, therunner said:

Also, other Cognitive Shadows could start going crazy overtime, as Hoid and Vasher imply, so blockage is probably not the culprit. (unless we consider lack of Connection to Physical Realm a kind of blockage)

It's not so-much a Cognitive Shadow thing, as something that affects all long-lived/immortal Cosmere people. Rashek WoB:

Spoiler

EAgamezz

What did The Lord Ruler do all day? He was totally bored right? What would he have done to get his hands on some Cadmium?

Brandon Sanderson

He was bored, but he was also—he was not mentally all completely... sane? I guess? That's a wrong way to say it. He was having trouble simply continuing to exist because of pressures and forces upon him in a cosmere sort of way. Much as the same sort of thing is happening to the Heralds and has happened to the Fused. He was not, let's say, in a stable sort of immortality like Hoid has found. Or I should say, his is unlike what Hoid has found. 

YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021)

Most believe it has to do with offloading memories (as Hoid does with Breath) but, I think, if that were the only factor than Rashek would not be so affected since he had F-Copper. We do know that Ruin was messing with his head, but that too does not seem to be the only factor. 

Either way, the Crux is: live too long and you too might lose your sanity. 

[alder24]

47 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

I suspect that what happened to the Parshmen was very similar to the Elantrians when the chasm made them all invalid targets for AonDor's power. I suspect that when Ba-Ado-Mishram was captured by the Radiants, the "Invested hardware/Connection/thingy" that let BAM grant forms of power was left in place - but was unable to complete the process of granting forms of power. What was left was an entire people left with that invalid connector - unable to adopt any form for a people that had made a symbiotic relationship with Roshar's native spren. I suspect the Everstorm tweaked that invalid Connection by realigning them to Odium (perhaps Odium took back BAM's influence, I'm not sure on the mechanics).

Yes, you're onto something:

Spoiler

DoritoJH

Is what happened to the singers on Roshar when Ba-Ado-Mishram was imprisoned mechanically [comparable] to what happened to the Terrismen on Scadrial when they were turned into mistwraiths?

Brandon Sanderson

It's more like what happened on Sel with the Elantrians than it is like what happened with the Terrismen. I can see where you're going, but that's not the [analogy] I would've gone to.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

48 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

As for the Heralds, I suspect that on top of the natural damages thousands upon thousands of years of torture will do to a psyche, I suspect that each either deliberately or subconsciously in desperation set up blockages between their minds or emotions and their body that was tortured. They straddled a line between functionality and experiencing trauma no human could ever survive. This is why in part when the Heralds touch the Spiritual Realm as Radiants swear Oaths, this blockage is temporarily bridged to bring even Taln to lucidity. I suspect that healing the Heralds likely would require removing, bridging, or circumventing that gap.

I don't think Heralds are an example of such a blockage. They suffer because they has been alive for way too long, Fused suffer the same fate and you can see it with totally mad Fused (like Raboniel's daughters) and partially sane, spren-like Fused (like Raboniel obsessed with ending this war, or Pursuer with his pursuing obsession). 

Spoiler

Questioner

Why or how are the Heralds the only ones we've seen so far that are affected by magical maladies due to either their high Investiture or long lives?

Brandon Sanderson

I would argue the Fused are having the same situation, so they're not the only ones. The why and how... there's a whole host of things going on here. Like a lot of physical and mental illness, it's not one thing or the other. But it is a compound of other things.

One is going so long without certain protections that you kind of need to take. The human being's soul might be immortal, depending on your argument in the cosmere. (That's really up to you.) But they certainly aren't meant for thousands of years of existence, the same way that our bodies aren't. There's some of that.

There's some of the things they've been through. Like, legit trauma; this is not all simply a magical ailment. You've got people with PTSD, layers of PTSD on top of layers of PTSD, for thousands of years, bearing things that no human being without their level of Investiture would even be able to bear. You've got that manifestation, you've got their own sense of guilt.

And these things are all just kind of overlapping together with the fact they've been alive for so, so very long. And a lot of the people that you've seen otherwise have not been alive nearly... orders of magnitude more for the Heralds. The only people you've seen that are that old are: some of the dragons, Hoid, and Vessels of various Shards. And you're basically at that group. And this is a group who knows what they're doing. Either they were built like the dragons, this is part of their innate nature, that they are functionally immortal. Or you are getting the Shards. Or you're getting people that are 300 years old, which is a very different thing, cosmere-wise, than having lived for thousands and thousands of years, part of it being torture.

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

 

37 minutes ago, therunner said:

For the Parshmen, I would note that somehow they became Connected to the lands they were in when the Everstorm hit them. We have Alethi-like Singers Kal meets, Thaylen Singers who steal ships and start using them, Azish Singers who immediately petition government for illegally withholding wages, etc. Additionally, they assumed various random forms.

This to me suggests (in conjuction with your theory) that Everstorm removed that broken/invalid connector to BAM, and the resulting gap was filled with what was 'natural', Connection to land that was around them (similar to what blank Connection does) + any spren they could take into gemheart.

I believe that their obtained nationality is the effect of 2,500 years of living in those nations and interacting with humans. A Connection slowly developed over this period of time on its own, making them just like humans. It was even noted several times that most of those Singers speak, behave and gesticulate like humans, not like real Singers. Without their own identity and nationality, they just picked up traits from humans around them, Connecting them to the land they live on. 

[Duxredux he/him]

@therunner, @Treamayne, and @alder24, I totally agree that millenia of torture will cripple anyone mentally or emotionally, there's really no disputing that, nor do I minimize that in my original post. However, I'm still looking for an explanation for why Taln and Ishar regained a degree of lucidity when first Dalinar, then Navani became Bondsmiths. Why do they think more clearly when another touches the Spiritual Realm? That's one factor that I'm seeking to address. Anyone have an explanation for why touching the Spiritual Realm will help Cognitive Shadows cope with torture or thousands of years of memories? I submit an Invested block between the mind and body of the Heralds as an additional complication, not the primary issue, but something that also would need to be addressed before they could be healed - and I'm guessing they will be healed to at least a certain extent since the back 5 books focusing on the Heralds. It's not too different from cancer killing a person, while not minimizing a secondary pneumonia infection - both need to be addressed and healed to bring someone to full function.

Beyond that, if we're looking at coping with trauma which is a major theme of SA, many sources that talk about mental and emotional healing list denial as a stage that must be moved beyond and rememberance as a key component to healing. This is huge component to Shallan's progression as a Lightweaver as she is digs out truths that left scars on her soul. I expect the Heralds to carry PTSD in one form or another the rest of their days, but to heal they will really need to come to terms with what was done to them - and how they abandoned Taln to recover. Ash really was not expecting Taln to proclaim her betrayal a gift to Roshar and I think that guilt broke her - knowing that he does not blame her may help her heal. Invested and/or psychological block, I assume they will need to address that block to heal. I assumed Investiture was a component because the Spiritual Realm contact affected it, but perhaps the exact nature isn't important - the Heralds certainly have plenty to repress or hide with denial.

[Treamayne]

10 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

I totally agree that millenia of torture will cripple anyone mentally or emotionally, there's really no disputing that, nor do I minimize that in my original post. However, I'm still looking for an explanation for why Taln and Ishar regained a degree of lucidity when first Dalinar, then Navani became Bondsmiths. Why do they think more clearly when another touches the Spiritual Realm?

Oh, there is definitely something there - I just don't think it has to do with being a Cognitive Shadow or long-lived - it has to do with Heralds specifically (likely because of how they "broke" the Oathpact). 

• Being long-lived can cause problems
• Being a Shadow (especially one in a physical shell - like Returned and Kelsier) can cause problems
• Heralds just also have this third "magical madness" specific to them too
  • This is the one partially alleviated by being near a source touching directly into Honor's power in the SR when saying an Oath and having it accepted)

WoB:

Spoiler

Questioner

The Heralds seem to be insane in the ways of their Divine Attributes, at least somewhat. Is this because they're Heralds? As Cognitive Shadows, they're subject to people's perception, like how spren are?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a very astute question, and yes, that is influencing them quite a bit. I'm doing something here with the Heralds. Like, I want the Heralds "madnesses," as we call them, to be magical diseases. And the contrast of something like Kaladin's depression, which I'm trying to treat very real-world. I'm trying to treat them as these things that couldn't exist in our world. They're fantastical mental diseases, like we have fantastic physical diseases in Elantris. So I did make them thematic, and I would say part of the reason for that is people's perception of them and their mental state reacting against that. And that should be a theme among all of the Heralds.

San Diego Comic-Con@Home 2020 (July 23, 2020)

 

Edited October 4, 2024 by Treamayne
SPAG

[alder24]

7 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

@therunner, @Treamayne, and @alder24, I totally agree that millenia of torture will cripple anyone mentally or emotionally, there's really no disputing that, nor do I minimize that in my original post. However, I'm still looking for an explanation for why Taln and Ishar regained a degree of lucidity when first Dalinar, then Navani became Bondsmiths. Why do they think more clearly when another touches the Spiritual Realm? That's one factor that I'm seeking to address. Anyone have an explanation for why touching the Spiritual Realm will help Cognitive Shadows cope with torture or thousands of years of memories? I submit an Invested block between the mind and body of the Heralds as an additional complication, not the primary issue, but something that also would need to be addressed before they could be healed - and I'm guessing they will be healed to at least a certain extent since the back 5 books focusing on the Heralds. It's not too different from cancer killing a person, while not minimizing a secondary pneumonia infection - both need to be addressed and healed to bring someone to full function.

Beyond that, if we're looking at coping with trauma which is a major theme of SA, many sources that talk about mental and emotional healing list denial as a stage that must be moved beyond and rememberance as a key component to healing. This is huge component to Shallan's progression as a Lightweaver as she is digs out truths that left scars on her soul. I expect the Heralds to carry PTSD in one form or another the rest of their days, but to heal they will really need to come to terms with what was done to them - and how they abandoned Taln to recover. Ash really was not expecting Taln to proclaim her betrayal a gift to Roshar and I think that guilt broke her - knowing that he does not blame her may help her heal. Invested and/or psychological block, I assume they will need to address that block to heal. I assumed Investiture was a component because the Spiritual Realm contact affected it, but perhaps the exact nature isn't important - the Heralds certainly have plenty to repress or hide with denial.

Apparently it's not just Heralds, everyone sees a bit more clearly when a Radiant touches SR. That, combined with the fact that all Heralds are Connected to Bondsmiths and Radiants, allows Heralds to reach SR as well - and there is their Spiritual Ideal of self, the perfect image of how they should be, what they are, untouched by their broken mind. When Radiant touches SR, it brings Heralds closer to their Spiritual Ideal of themselves. It doesn't cure them, it doesn't let them cope with their PTSD, it just makes them more present in SR where such things are irrelevant. That's how I view this, it's not any blockage. RoW ch 111:

Quote

“I can see clearly,” the voice said from within the perpendicularity. “I do not know why. Has a Bondsmith been sworn? We have a Connection, all of us.… Nevertheless, I feel my sanity slipping. My mind is broken, and I do not know if it can be healed.
“Perhaps you can restore me for a short time after an Ideal is spoken near me. Everyone sees a little more clearly when a Radiant touches the Spiritual Realm."