Honor's mistake.

[Dofurion]

I've been reflecting on the situation of the former Knights Radiant recently, and I think that Honor made a mistake when it came to organizing the different orders.

We know that the different orders of radiants continually suffered from internal conflicts due to the different positions of each one, so much so that for example: the order of the Windrunners came to have altercations with the Skybreakers during certain situations. And this despite the fact that several characters who saw the situation thought that the orders were very similar, although those same orders did not want to recognize it.

We can guess that these disputes were mediated by the Bondsmiths, but as we all know and as Senne Khald observes in-world, there are only 3 of them. This is not enough for an organization of such magnitude to survive.

In short, the different orders became echo chambers that prevented the creation of a true unity.

What could have been done to avoid this situation?

Considering that the positive reinforcement of these ideals must have been important to cement the Radiants in formation, the squires and Radiants of the 1st and 2nd ideals would continue under the organizational structure of orders already established, but once the 3rd ideal was pronounced, they would form small teams of 9 radiants of each, these composed of members of each of the orders (obviously they will not be 10 due to the situation of the Bondsmiths) so that they begin to interact with each other.

Finally, if the 4th ideal is indeed a delimiter of the primary mission of the order, it is very likely that these groups would help the Radiants understand that reality and end up advancing more quickly towards higher ideals.

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Dofurion said:

I've been reflecting on the situation of the former Knights Radiant recently, and I think that Honor made a mistake when it came to organizing the different orders.

Keep in mind that Honor did not form the Knights Radiant - Spren mimicked the Honorblades, creating the Raditant form of a Nahel Bond to grant Surgebinding, and it was Herald Ishar that organized the Radiant orders. Coppermind with references:

Spoiler

The first Surgebinders came to be as a result of spren trying to imitate what Honor had given his Heralds. The spren formed bonds with the mankind to give them Surgebinding abilities.^[6] Honor was surprised by their coming, because he hadn't taught it to his Heralds.^[6] These Surgebinders were later formed into the ten orders of the Knights Radiant by the Herald Ishi'Elin, for the purpose of watching for the coming Desolations, and helping men fight, then rebuild the society from the destruction of the Desolations, and they adopted the city of Urithiru as their center of power.^[7] This formalized system was in place by at least the Sixth Epoch, Year 31.^[8]

• 6 - Words of Radiance chapter 4
• 7 - The Way of Kings chapter 60
• 8 - #SayTheWords
  — Arcanum - 2023-12-20

Then, of course, between Desolations the Heralds were absent, so much of the Structure of the Orders in Urithiru was self-made by the Radiants themselves. 

Hope that helps

[Dofurion]

15 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Keep in mind that Honor did not form the Knights Radiant - Spren mimicked the Honorblades, creating the Raditant form of a Nahel Bond to grant Surgebinding, and it was Herald Ishar that organized the Radiant orders

Yes, I know the points you mention, but I find it hard to believe that after the Surgebinders emerged, he didn't feel any responsibility for them. Even more so considering the Intent of said Shard.

[Treamayne]

4 minutes ago, Dofurion said:

Yes, I know the points you mention, but I find it hard to believe that after the Surgebinders emerged, he didn't feel any responsibility for them. Even more so considering the Intent of said Shard.

I did not claim a lack of responsibility or interaction - just that you specifically called out organizational structure, and Tanavast had nothing to do with Organizational structure.

Edited September 29, 2024 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Duxredux he/him]

There's an assumption here that the Radiants weren't formed into teams combining various orders - and I don't see any indication that this didn't happen. Dalinar's vision of Starfalls where he fights Midnight Essence shows that Radiants were sent on missions outside of Order blocks.

Honor did make mistakes, but the org chart is by no means the underlying cause or the most egregious example. The most obvious is the Oathpact designed to seal away Odium that relied on ten men and women to withstand every temptation, pain, and torture that the Shard of Hatred and his minions could devise. This misstep highlights Honor's greatest strength and weakness - that he believes in people.

"Honor is not dead, so long as he lives in the hearts of men" is the belief of some of the Honorspren, and it is Honor's belief that honor exists in mankind, that they will keep their oaths. The Knights Radiant by design encourages ordinary people to do better - to protect even those you hate, to obey the law, to listen to the forgotten. If you have to rely on your Bondsmith/supervisor to break up every dispute, that organization is doomed anyway because there is no trust. Perhaps Honor believed that the Windrunners would protect everyone they hated - so long as it was right - even the Skybreakers. That the Skybreakers would uphold the law and the orders of the Bondsmiths even when clashing against the Windrunners. Maybe Honor believed the Edgedancers would listen and help negotiate. In essence Honor believed in the honor of the Heralds and Radiants but planned poorly should that honor fail - and that is very much a logical blindspot for his Intent. 

Edited September 30, 2024 by Duxredux

[Returned he/him]

A different organizational scheme might have worked better than what the Radiants used. I suppose we'll never know. But I think that fundamental organization of mixed-Order teams would have been difficult due to the divergent views and values of the Orders themselves along with seeing that factionalism was problematic.

Quarrels among the Orders would probably not have been avoided by forcing them to interact more (though who knows? Maybe it would have!). The factionalism piece seems difficult to me, though. Even with ten factions united in purpose, duty, and heritage there was still dissension and scheming. Creating a large number of mixed squads sounds to me like it would be at least as prone to factionalism and dissent.

But ultimately I doubt it would have helped anyone much. The Radiants displayed strong unity (well, 9 out of 10 Orders' worth of unity) in the Recreance, which was a result of horror and revulsion over truths that considerably predated the Knights. We don't know a whole lot about the pre-Recreance days, but the Radiants seem to have been generally present and effective enough in their duties. The organization's failures that we know about were mostly the Recreance itself and the binding and imprisonment of Ba-Ado-Mishram, neither of which would have been improved by any particular internal structure. Or so I think, at least.

[Light In the Darkness]

On 9/28/2024 at 6:58 PM, Dofurion said:

...so much so that for example: the order of the Windrunners came to have altercations with the Skybreakers during certain situations.

Interestingly, this clash is related to a very old religious and legal debate: Letter vs Spirit of the Law. Not much that you could do would prevent this from ever again coming up, especially with less mature members of each group. I think that integrating the two orders into teams of both could have helped, but it likely would have caused factionalism, as @Returned said. Perhaps companionships made up of one from each order that would periodically rotate under the direction of superiors would have made a better difference and encouraged greater respect, but that organizational structure would likely be foreign to them unless it was introduced by chance, say from one from each falling in love with each other and superiors taking notice, which seems unlikely with how those orders tend to run themselves.

Another possibility is war games. Seems a bit stupid, but if everyone can heal, having a mock battle with the least mature of each group fighting each other probably wouldn't be that dangerous, would let them get out aggression or irritation, and would help build mutual respect (easier to respect someone who can stab you). If it was done with oath one and two radiants, with an open perpendicularity nearby like from Dalinar, it would be practically impossible for there to be fatal damage - Skybreakers don't have access to destruction at that stage, and neither set has blades. If you did that and then had the oath 3 ones you could trust work closely with someone from the other faction for long periods of time, maybe starting as sparring partners with the most hot-headed ones and then going to something like CIA partners for more mature ones, until oath 4 or later, as judged by a superior, could have possibly mitigated the damage from the way their Ideals are so different.