Inheriting Urithiru?

[+Oltux72 he/him]

Dalinar sought an heir for Urithiru in case he dies. From the perspective of continuity of government that is obviously a necessity if the king intends to enter a duell. However, in the long run it seems problematic.

The Bondsmiths are the natural leaders of the Knights Radiant. In fact if both Dalniar and Navani died, it would seem to me that the Stormfather would be required to restart the process for finding a new Bondsmith. So eventually there will be a Bondsmith.

And then what? There is a king, who is not a Bondsmith. Will the new Bondsmith take orders from the king? That would seem to be a violation of the basic setup of the Knights Radiant. Will the king abdicate? Then the new Bondsmith will always be the one who overthrew Dalinar's true successor.

So how was this done before the fall of Urithiru? I would speculate that the Bondsmiths had squires and a Bondsmith regularly talked with his squires and his spren about the eventuality of succession. The Stormfather, not being human, sees the current procedure as an extension of the old procedure.
Why does he get it past Jasnah and Hoid? To put it bluntly, they see it as futile. If Dalinar and Navani die, it will be over. Hoid will flee and Jasnah will surrender to Odium.

To be fair I should say how it ought to be done. The closest current analog of the Knights Radiant is, oddly enough, the Vatican. They use a council of officials as an interim government.

[Alcatur]

25 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

So how was this done before the fall of Urithiru? I would speculate that the Bondsmiths had squires and a Bondsmith regularly talked with his squires and his spren about the eventuality of succession. The Stormfather, not being human, sees the current procedure as an extension of the old procedure.

Its perfectly possible that old Radiants weren't exactly a monarchy but were instead governed by some sort of council. Maybe the Bondsmiths were joint leaders like Spartan Kings with divided responsibilities (it makes sense with Sibling Bondsmiths apparetly having limited ability to leave the Tower). Probably some sort of body representing the Orders existed. During the times of Desolations the Heralds were probably in place as well in leadership roles. 

 

Dalinar very inflexible approach to the models of ruling has been noted in books, but it doesn't look like it had to be how it always was. I imagine that Kaladin would be a more symbolic leader and probably could abdicate moving the Orders towards a different model. 

[+Child of Hodor]

4 hours ago, Alcatur said:

Its perfectly possible that old Radiants weren't exactly a monarchy but were instead governed by some sort of council. Maybe the Bondsmiths were joint leaders like Spartan Kings with divided responsibilities (it makes sense with Sibling Bondsmiths apparetly having limited ability to leave the Tower). Probably some sort of body representing the Orders existed. During the times of Desolations the Heralds were probably in place as well in leadership roles. 

 

They probably didn't have a monarch back then, I agree. I would imagine the Sibling bondsmith, when they had one, oversaw the day-to-day operations of Urithiru.  With a strong connection to the Tower itself and that they can't leave for very long without breaking the bond the Sibling bondsmith is well positioned to run the place. They got nothing better to do. That doesn't mean they ran the Radiants though. I imagine the radiant orders had a hierarchy based on who swore the most oaths.

[alder24]

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Dalinar sought an heir for Urithiru in case he dies. From the perspective of continuity of government that is obviously a necessity if the king intends to enter a duell. However, in the long run it seems problematic.

The Bondsmiths are the natural leaders of the Knights Radiant. In fact if both Dalniar and Navani died, it would seem to me that the Stormfather would be required to restart the process for finding a new Bondsmith. So eventually there will be a Bondsmith.

And then what? There is a king, who is not a Bondsmith. Will the new Bondsmith take orders from the king? That would seem to be a violation of the basic setup of the Knights Radiant. Will the king abdicate? Then the new Bondsmith will always be the one who overthrew Dalinar's true successor.

So how was this done before the fall of Urithiru? I would speculate that the Bondsmiths had squires and a Bondsmith regularly talked with his squires and his spren about the eventuality of succession. The Stormfather, not being human, sees the current procedure as an extension of the old procedure.

They can share the power and responsibilities, have two kings at the same time - not that uncommon in the past. 

We don't know how it worked in the past, we know there were 10 thrones in Urithiru, one for every ruler of the Silver Kingdoms. It's unlikely however they had any say in the matters of the Tower and the Radiants themselves. We don't know if Radiants even had a ruler and not some kind of council or some form of democracy.

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Why does he get it past Jasnah and Hoid? To put it bluntly, they see it as futile. If Dalinar and Navani die, it will be over. Hoid will flee and Jasnah will surrender to Odium.

Dalinar assumes he will die in the contest, not before or after, but during it. In any case there will be no war, there will be no conflict, the borders will solidify and there would be no reason for Jasnah to surrender to Odium, who isn't their enemy anymore. Someone however has to rule over the Tower and command the Radiants - they will still exist, Urithiru will still be inhabited. 

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

To be fair I should say how it ought to be done. The closest current analog of the Knights Radiant is, oddly enough, the Vatican. They use a council of officials as an interim government.

Yup, I agree it's very likely that Urithiru government system will shift towards democracy - especially considering that Jashan is planning to go in that direction with Alethkar already.

 

[Master Silver]

On 9/26/2024 at 12:35 AM, Alcatur said:

Its perfectly possible that old Radiants weren't exactly a monarchy but were instead governed by some sort of council. Maybe the Bondsmiths were joint leaders like Spartan Kings with divided responsibilities (it makes sense with Sibling Bondsmiths apparetly having limited ability to leave the Tower). Probably some sort of body representing the Orders existed. During the times of Desolations the Heralds were probably in place as well in leadership roles. 

 

Dalinar very inflexible approach to the models of ruling has been noted in books, but it doesn't look like it had to be how it always was. I imagine that Kaladin would be a more symbolic leader and probably could abdicate moving the Orders towards a different model. 

Yes, there could have been a council of 5th ideal Radiants. I imagine that at first the Almighty worked with the Kings, and Jezerin was in charge of the Heralds. As time went on the Heralds likely governed their Radiant orders, but as they became more effected by the torture, the most capable Radiants likely took their place. They would have needed successors in between desolations anyway.

[Rorzikel]

On 9/26/2024 at 9:41 AM, alder24 said:

Yup, I agree it's very likely that Urithiru government system will shift towards democracy - especially considering that Jashan is planning to go in that direction with Alethkar already.

I'm skeptical that the Radiants will naturally drift towards democracy or that it is inevitable. The nature of the spren's voluntary bond and the oaths' increasing levels builds hierarchies, and the squire system prioritizes networking and nepotism. Even the very existence of the Bondsmiths gives three people much more weight than most Knights as the providers of Light and manipulators of Connection. No one other than Dalinar had the ability to negotiate as Honor's stand-in, and any voting on the Contest would be at the mercy of his agreement.

[Alcatur]

17 hours ago, Master Silver said:

Yes, there could have been a council of 5th ideal Radiants. I imagine that at first the Almighty worked with the Kings, and Jezerin was in charge of the Heralds. As time went on the Heralds likely governed their Radiant orders, but as they became more effected by the torture, the most capable Radiants likely took their place. They would have needed successors in between desolations anyway.

I thought about it, but the Heralds probably focused more on mortal realms and education rather than the Radiants. Its clear from Taln rant - with at least Kalak, Vedel, Jezrien and  Taln teaching people (its also clear from various examples of "Wisdom of the Heralds" that they felt how passing the knowledge was most important). With this they probably had limited ability and time to actually command the Radiants. Various elements, such as the way Taln talks about Radiants, the fact that no Herald beside Nale joined their order, also implies some distance. I don't think that Heralds were directly involved with commanding Radiants, though probably Jezrien did estabilish some overall command structure to confront the Desolation. 

 

 

 

Edited September 28, 2024 by Alcatur

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 9/27/2024 at 6:00 PM, Rorzikel said:

I'm skeptical that the Radiants will naturally drift towards democracy or that it is inevitable. The nature of the spren's voluntary bond and the oaths' increasing levels builds hierarchies, and the squire system prioritizes networking and nepotism. Even the very existence of the Bondsmiths gives three people much more weight than most Knights as the providers of Light and manipulators of Connection. No one other than Dalinar had the ability to negotiate as Honor's stand-in, and any voting on the Contest would be at the mercy of his agreement.

A more republican setup need not mean democracy. More something like a setup with only Radiants of the higher oaths getting representation. But not monarchy either.

[Taliax none (name only)]

I think Jasnah was skipped over in the line of succession only because she's already queen of Alethkar, and it would be seen as a conflict of interest for her to be in charge of both Urithiru (which is at least supposed to be independent from other nations) as well as Alethkar, even if Alethkar is still taken over by Odium. Otherwise she would definitely be the most logical choice.

But yeah, I think having something like a council of Radiants from each order would make the most sense, or one of the Bondsmiths leading (when available). From the gemstone archives, it seemed like Melishi (the Sibling bondsmith) might have been a leader in the past, but I'm not sure.

As for the Vatican comment, I could also see it working like that, where the Bondsmith's squires work to choose a new leader from among themselves, who ends up becoming the next Bondsmith and leader of Urithiru. I wonder if we'll see Dalinar or Navani gain any squires in this book that could point to that.

Really I just hope Kaladin doesn't end up having to be king. Frankly I don't think he would know what to do with that particular kind of responsibility. He was already overwhelmed with just trying to manage the Windrunners; he works best in small groups. and I just want him to get a break lol.

[FollowYourMuse she/her]

This bothered me, yes Kaladin might be a good choice, but the fact that he is stuck on an inherited position is wrong, The logical choice would be Navani as another Bondsmith, so some random Stoneward just because they reached the fourth Ideal is just ridiculous. 

[Dofurion]

38 minutes ago, FollowYourMuse said:

This bothered me, yes Kaladin might be a good choice, but the fact that he is stuck on an inherited position is wrong, The logical choice would be Navani as another Bondsmith, so some random Stoneward just because they reached the fourth Ideal is just ridiculous. 

Well, technically he would be the king if Dalinar and Navani die. In case it's just Dalinar then Navani remains as queen.