Wind and Wit Fear the FULL POWER of the Everstorm - Odium Will Be Free

[Confused]

In my other thread today, @LewsTherinTelescope said this: 

11 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

We still don't know why it's named Everstorm...

That’s the answer to a question I’ve been asking myself for 10 years!

What binds Odium to the Rosharan system, and why must he destroy Roshar in order to free himself?

Answer: The Everstorm!

I think Honor bound Odium by causing his Investiture to accumulate in Ashyn's subastral - an open perpendicularity without an outlet. Whether Honor intended it or not, some Odious Investiture migrated to Roshar (the planet) with humans. That’s the part the Oathpact seals away on Braize. I suspect most of Odium's Investiture remains stuck in Ashyn’s subastral, growing ever larger over time, raging at its imprisonment. The Everstorm!

Now Wit tells us how humans came to Roshar:

Quote

“Long ago,” Wit said softly, “that rhythm guided humans across the void from one planet to the other. They followed it to reach your world.”

“One of the rhythms of Roshar,” Syl said with a nod. “Made into a song, with the tones of the gods.”

- WaT, Chapter 3

Listeners’ Stormform called a small part of Odium’s Investiture to manifest as the original Everstorm. Singers Roshar-wide can now summon all of Odium’s accumulated Investiture from Ashyn. When it manifests in the Physical Realm, the Everstorm will completely remake Roshar. Odium at last will be free.

This is what Wind and Wit fear.

Edited September 22, 2024 by Confused

[alder24]

18 hours ago, Confused said:

In my other thread today, @LewsTherinTelescope said this: 

That’s the answer to a question I’ve been asking myself for 10 years!

What binds Odium to the Rosharan system, and why must he destroy Roshar in order to free himself?

Answer: The Everstorm!

I think Honor bound Odium by causing his Investiture to accumulate in Ashyn's subastral - an open perpendicularity without an outlet. Whether Honor intended it or not, some Odious Investiture migrated to Roshar (the planet) with humans. That’s the part the Oathpact seals away on Braize. I suspect most of Odium's Investiture remains stuck in Ashyn’s subastral, growing ever larger over time, raging at its imprisonment. The Everstorm!

Now Wit tells us how humans came to Roshar:

Listeners’ Stormform called a small part of Odium’s Investiture to manifest as the original Everstorm. Singers Roshar-wide can now summon all of Odium’s accumulated Investiture from Ashyn. When it manifests in the Physical Realm, the Everstorm will completely remake Roshar. Odium at last will be free.

This is what Wind and Wit fear.

I have some problems with this theory. Firstly, when Odium arrived on Roshar, he most likely wasn't invested enough in the system to prevent him from leaving - he is now however. This most likely happened after the Recreance as the Sibling didn't recognize Odium's tone as one of the pure tones of Roshar, yet now everyone else, stones included, recognizes Odium as the true part of Roshar. Odium's investiture isn't just in one specific part of the system, it's everywhere. 

Spoiler

Questioner

When one of the shards, like Odium, move from world to world in the cosmere, does their presence, like the metals they leave behind and their magic, leave with them?

Brandon Sanderson

Odium never really settled on a planet.  He is now settled on Roshar and his magic has permeated things.  Leaving would be very difficult for him. It would either involve leaving behind some of his power or ripping that out, which would be a difficult process.  So yes it is very tough to leave.

Phoenix Comicon 2013 (May 24, 2013)

RoW ch 69:

Quote

I haven’t forgotten anything. The defenses no longer work because I don’t have the Light for them. I lost most of my strength when I lost the ability to hear the two pure tones of Roshar. I can make only a tiny amount of Light, enough to power a few of the tower’s basic fabrials.
“Two tones of Roshar?” Navani said. “There are three.”
No, there are two. One from my mother, one from my father. The tone of Odium is an interloper. False.
“Could part of the reason you lost your abilities relate to that tone becoming a pure tone of Roshar? Odium truly becoming one of the three gods?”
I … don’t know, the Sibling admitted

RoW ch 83:

Quote

It felt wrong to be using his Light to practice her Surgebinding, but the stones whispered that it was well. Odium and his tone had become part of Roshar, as Cultivation and Honor—who had not been created alongside the planet—had become part of it. His power was natural, and no more wrong or right than any other part of nature.

Secondly, the Everstorm came from Braize, not Ashyn. There is a barrier storm around Braize’s subastral and Odium splintered part of it and deliberately moved it to Roshar to cause the Everstorm. Listeners in Stormform were able to summon the Everstorm because it already was in, or very close to the Rosharan subastral.

RoW ch 89:

Quote

“Could … I visit them?” Navani asked. “These other worlds?”
“Likely—though I’d stay away from Braize. You’d have to get through the storm to travel there anyway.”

RoW ch 73:

Quote

“The new storm,” Venli whispered.
Yes. It’s been building in Shadesmar for centuries. We need to get our agents close enough to it on this side—a place that is out in the ocean, mind you—so they can use gemstones to pull my brothers and sisters across. Then those stones have to be physically transported here. You have no idea how much of a pain it all is.

RoW ch 86:

Quote

She didn’t quite understand his explanations of what was happening. But she knew a storm was mounting in Shadesmar. In fact, the storm had been building for generations—growing in fury, intensity. It barred the way to Damnation.
That storm was where Ulim had originally come from. There were also thousands of another kind of spren in the storm: stormspren. Mindless things like windspren or flamespren.
Venli had to find a way to pull those stormspren across and capture them. To that end, a large portion of the roiling storm had been broken off by the god of gods, the ancient one called Odium. This storm was his strength, his essence. Over painful months, he’d moved the storm across the landscape— unseen—until it arrived here. Kind of. Almost.

Thirdly, Odium being stuck on Braize is the same as being stuck on Roshar and Ashyn - he's bound to the entire system. Odium's imprisonment is greater than the Oathpact.

Spoiler

ZuperzubS

Hi Brandon, just to double check my understanding of things, Odium is still mostly bound on Braize right? Just that he can influence things on Roshar because of proximity?

Brandon Sanderson

I treat Braize, Ashyn, and Roshar as if they were almost one entity for a lot of Identity/Connection related issues. It's more than proximity, though proximity leads to it. We on Earth, I feel, would consider the moon and even Mars to be "ours" so to speak, part of our family of planets. Odium's binding, and that of the Heralds/Fused encompasses Roshar and Ashyn. There are some subtle distinctions, but for the most part, being bound on Braize is the same as being bound on Roshar.

[...]

Rhythm of War Preview Q&As (Oct. 7, 2020)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

So Odium is trapped on a planet near Roshar. Now that Talenelat is no longer being bound wherever he's at, does that mean that Odium's imminence is--

Brandon Sanderson

Taln still is keeping to the Oathpact. So there is that. But [Odium's] being bound is greater than the Oathpact.

Shadows of Self Lansing signing (Oct. 13, 2015)

 

Now there are two things that bind Odium to the Rosharan system. First one is Honor's chains, second is just investiture. In the long years of fighting against Honor and Cultivation, Odium slowly invested himself to the point that even if he were freed of Honor's restrains, he wouldn't be able to just leave Roshar - it most likely happened after Aharietiam and it might be related to Odium moving the Everstorm from Braize to Roshar. 

As for how exactly Honor bound Odium to Roshar, I think the simplest explanation is just by using an Oath. Odium was allowed to settle on Roshar by Honor and Cultivation and I wouldn't be surprised if in exchange Odium swore not to directly use his powers on any individuals. There probably was some kind of loophole used by Honor that bound Odium permanently to Roshar - like he can't leave unless Honor's agree to it, or something like this. If Dalinar's word is the only thing that can release Odium from Honor's bounds, this can't be some raw power being stuck somewhere, this can only be an Oath between Shards. 

Spoiler

Questioner

It’s really heavily implied in the first Oathbringer letter that the Shards made a pact not to settle near each other. Given that a full half of the Shards ended up doing that, what is the cost for them breaking that oath? You implied earlier that there’s always a cost for Hoid, for taking his protections.

Brandon Sanderson

The wording of those things allows them to agree together, but it also gives them a little bit of power over one another, and you’ve seen the side effects of that on the planets where it’s happened. It has not gone well for any of them, if you kind of run the numbers on that. But the wording of it allows two, later on, to say, "Okay, we both agree." (If one said no and one said yes, then they were in trouble.) This should imply to you that Odium did get permission, as well.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

 

[Confused]

I was so excited to get my thoughts out I was unclear. You raise excellent questions and apt WoBs. The point about Odium’s Roshar residence I intended to address but didn’t. I’ll adapt my speculations to other of your points. Thanks!

On 9/23/2024 at 7:05 AM, alder24 said:

Firstly, when Odium arrived on Roshar, he most likely wasn't invested enough in the system to prevent him from leaving - he is now however. This most likely happened after the Recreance as the Sibling didn't recognize Odium's tone as one of the pure tones of Roshar, yet now everyone else, stones included, recognizes Odium as the true part of Roshar. Odium's investiture isn't just in one specific part of the system, it's everywhere. [Bold added.]

Odium’s Investiture

For all the reasons you cite, Odium is more Invested in Roshar than anywhere. But I’m unaware of a Rosharan perpendicularity for him. I don’t believe Odium has a perpendicularity on Braize either. Odium was on Ashyn, settled or not. He taught Ishar how to Surgebind, which led to Ashyn’s destruction. He accompanied the human migration to Roshar, and the Singers called him the human god. As you say, Odium’s Investiture permeates the system. He’d have to leave some part of himself behind were he to leave the system.

But does he have to? Can he destroy Roshar and keep himself mostly intact when he leaves? Enter the Everstorm.

I believe the WoR Everstorm is a smaller part of the whole. Odium moved the storm bit by bit into Roshar’s subastral, where it grew over “centuries.” I do NOT believe that smaller storm’s Investiture is enough to free Odium.

That leads me to think Odium has an alternative plan for freedom. I speculate he’s been accumulating a much larger cache of Investiture to create an even larger Everstorm. With no perpendicularity on any Rosharan planet, it takes him millennia, not centuries, to build this storm. He wouldn’t put that cache on Roshar or Braize because Honor, Cultivation or the Heralds would have noticed it. The only remaining place to grow the Everstorm would be on Ashyn. I suspect this accumulated Investiture is now alive and angry at its long imprisonment.

Now we learn Roshar’s tones led humans through the Cognitive Realm from Ashyn to Roshar. Listeners sang the smaller Everstorm from Braize to Roshar. My question: Why can’t all Singers sing the full Everstorm from Ashyn to Roshar?

I suspect ROdium silenced Wind to keep the larger Everstorm a secret. TOdium may not have initially known about it and inadvertently allowed Wind to speak to Kaladin. Now (according to the Chapter 3 Epigraph) Wind has again “vanished.” Wind does not fear the smaller Everstorm like she apparently fears what is to come.

All of which makes me think there is a much larger Everstorm somewhere waiting in the Rosharan system to destroy Roshar completely. Odium would then be free to collect his Rosharan Investiture and travel elsewhere in the cosmere.

Odium’s Oath

There’s been a lot of speculation that the Shards’ oaths permit them to reside jointly on a planet but not to take action against one another. Oath breaking exposes a Shard to retribution from the others. This has prevented Odium from acting against Cultivation. It’s also evidence that Cultivation helped Odium kill Honor. Otherwise, Odium would already fear a Cultivation counterstroke.

If Odium can kill Cultivation, however, he will have broken his oath but need not immediately worry about the consequences. The Shard Letters show other Shards have some concerns about Odium but are not overly or imminently fearful. Only Harmony seems interested. Bottom line: I don’t think the oaths will keep Odium in the Rosharan system.

But who knows... Thanks again!

 

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Confused said:

But I’m unaware of a Rosharan perpendicularity for him. I don’t believe Odium has a perpendicularity on Braize either.

Yes, we don't know where his perpendicularity is and if there is one, but there most likely should be. Brandon RAFO'd questions about it.

1 hour ago, Confused said:

But does he have to? Can he destroy Roshar and keep himself mostly intact when he leaves? Enter the Everstorm.

Should work. It would have worked for Ruin. But the difference is that Ruin created Scadrial, Odium didn't. He needs to use up much more of his power to achieve that and that would leave him exposed. A giant storm, not matter how big it is, can't destroy an entire planet. 

1 hour ago, Confused said:

I do NOT believe that smaller storm’s Investiture is enough to free Odium.

That leads me to think Odium has an alternative plan for freedom.

I agree, the smaller strom was never meant to free Odium - Dalinar was meant to do that, Rayse even said that to him. If Rayse had some other plan to free himself from Roshar, he wouldn't have been so desperate to make Dalinar free him. However, Rayse himself said to Dalinar that he didn't want to destroy Roshar, because Roshar is his training ground - he needed soldiers and he was preparing all of Roshar to fight for him in the incoming war. 

This means Rayse certainly didn't plan nor accumulated any other storm to destroy Roshar and if moving one, tiny storm to Roshar took Rayse centuries, then Taravangian will be unable to create a new storm in the incoming decades, that is big enough to seriously damage the planet, not to mention destroy it (let's be real, a storm can't destroy a planet).

RoW ch 112:

Quote

“Do you know why I make men fight, Dalinar? Why I created the Thrill? Why I encourage the wars?”
“To destroy us.”
“Why would I want to destroy you? I am your god, Dalinar.” Odium shook his head, staring into the infinite golden distance. “I need soldiers. For the true battle that is coming, not for one people or one miserable windswept continent. A battle of the gods. A battle for everything.
“Roshar is a training ground. The time will come that I unleash you upon the others who are not nearly as well trained. Not nearly as hardened as I have made you.”

 

1 hour ago, Confused said:

With no perpendicularity on any Rosharan planet, it takes him millennia, not centuries, to build this storm.

Why would lack of a perpendicularity matter here at all? Perpendicularity just pierces realms.

1 hour ago, Confused said:

He wouldn’t put that cache on Roshar or Braize because Honor, Cultivation or the Heralds would have noticed it. The only remaining place to grow the Everstorm would be on Ashyn

And Honor and Cultivation won't notice a giant storm suddenly appearing around Ashyn? They would. They were both invested in the entirety of the system, Cultivation even visited Ashyn at some point and magic on Ashyn is Cultivation based. She would be well aware about anything that is happening on Ashyn. 

Spoiler

Questioner

You have talked about writing a book about Ashyn, the first planet in the Rosharan system. You said that they have a magic system based on disease, but they are currently without a Shard. Can you tell us what the source of that magic system is?

Brandon Sanderson

A lot of the magic systems in the cosmere, I kind of in my head differentiate kind of the primary worlds and the secondary worlds. And even on the secondary worlds, there is magic. And any place that a Shard has been in presence is gonna leave behind an aftereffect, but it's not always that. I would call most of the magic on Ashyn Cultivation-based, most likely. And Cultivation's in the system, but has only briefly been to that planet. But it doesn't mean that... basically, it's kind of the level of Investiture. If you go to Scadrial, on Scadrial, you're gonna have a high percentage of the population, cosmereologically, that are gonna have access to one of the Hemalurgic [Metallic] arts, right? Same thing on Roshar. And indeed, the people are going to be Invested on a level that is beyond the others. This is my in-world canon reason that people just don't come down with colds very often or have tooth decay very often, and things like that. On the primary Shardworlds, we're talking about people who are just naturally, highly Invested.

All the other worlds, though, you're still gonna have the occasional pop-up of magic, here and there. You're still gonna have effects of being in the cosmere, and things like that. Just much smaller chances. And the magic's probably going to be less likely to be planet-destroying potential, and things like that, like happened on Ashyn.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 23, 2021)

 

1 hour ago, Confused said:

Listeners sang the smaller Everstorm from Braize to Roshar.

Not exactly, it was already on Roshar, they just pulled it from the CR to PR.

1 hour ago, Confused said:

My question: Why can’t all Singers sing the full Everstorm from Ashyn to Roshar?

Assuming there is a storm there, it's simply too far away. With a Dawnshard it could be possible, but without probably the can't do this at all if it's not on Roshar. Singers are Connected to Roshar, they are hearing Rhythms of Roshar, Ashyn is not a place they are Connected to, they can hear. Just because humans were guided once by Rhythms to Roshar, doesn't mean that Singers can attract a storm from Ashyn. 

1 hour ago, Confused said:

There’s been a lot of speculation that the Shards’ oaths permit them to reside jointly on a planet but not to take action against one another. Oath breaking exposes a Shard to retribution from the others. This has prevented Odium from acting against Cultivation. It’s also evidence that Cultivation helped Odium kill Honor. Otherwise, Odium would already fear a Cultivation counterstroke.

But Odium wanted to kill Cultivation, she just was hiding. Odium was also afraid of Cultivation attacking him if he were to break his Oath to Dalinar. This means Odium can kill Cultivation, if she weren't hiding and Cultivation can attack Odium, if he exposes himself. Moreover, Cultivation in the past was fighting alongside Tanavast against Honor, not to mention they were romantically involved. I highly doubt she helped kill Honor. OB ch 57:

Quote

“Yes. I’ll kill the other one too, eventually. She’s hidden herself somewhere, and I’m too … shackled.”

RoW ch 112:

Quote

"But that is not going to happen, and I am not going to break my word. Because if I did, it would create a hole in my soul—which would let Cultivation kill me."

 

Spoiler

Seonid

If Cultivation and Honor were romantically involved, why did Cultivation not help Honor against Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

She did.

Idaho Falls Signing (Nov. 28, 2015)

 

This cleared a few things up and it makes more sense now. Still, I don't think a storm is around Ashyn or it was all planned by Rayse, but this made me wonder what would happen if TOdium moved the entirety of the Barrier Storm from Braize to Roshar? That would be a disaster, even if he were to leave it surrounding the Rosharan subastral. If it was raging within the subastral, it would wreck the entire Shadesmar. And of course, it would be apocalyptic if they were to be summoned fully into PR. One giant storm covering the entire planet - it would basically transform Roshar into Neptune, which has wind as fast as 2000 km/h. That would definitely be the end of all life on Roshar. I still doubt Taravangian would go this far and I doubt this would free him, but this might be possible.

Personally I do agree that a disaster awaits Roshar, but I think it will be the Night of Sorrows - endless Weeping with no Stormlight after the Stormfather's death, caused by Dalinar breaking the terms of the contest, which freed Odium. I do expect the same outcome as you do, but not on that scale. 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 9/22/2024 at 8:22 PM, Confused said:

Listeners’ Stormform called a small part of Odium’s Investiture to manifest as the original Everstorm. Singers Roshar-wide can now summon all of Odium’s accumulated Investiture from Ashyn. When it manifests in the Physical Realm, the Everstorm will completely remake Roshar. Odium at last will be free.

This is what Wind and Wit fear.

Well, then the obvious question. Why does Odium bother with the whole Desolation thing? Why does he agree to a contest? If the Everstorm could do that, why wouldn't Odium just wait until the effect is realized and then leave?

[Confused]

@Alder24 has convinced me that Odium wants to “void-ify” Roshar rather than destroy it. Turn everyone and everything into his army of soldiers, spies, and other agents. I thought Odium would destroy Roshar and empty it of his Investiture to increase his power relative to other Shards. I still think Rayse might have gone down that path and prepared for Shard-to-Shard combat. But Taravangian is a much craftier and more manipulative Vessel. He would use his void-people to undermine the other Shards in a more subtle way than Rayse might have.

You ask why would Odium have chosen Desolation? It takes a long time to accumulate that much Investiture. Maybe a Desolation might have succeeded in winning him Roshar sooner. Maybe he wanted human civilization to founder, keeping them from learning about the greater cosmere. Maybe he wanted the Heralds to lose their minds. Unclear, but good question!