Unmade Origins Theory

[Lock]

Kind of cross-posting from the Reddit because I wasn't sure which place would be better (sorry if that's frowned upon). 

I'm not too up-to-date with theories - and haven't reread in a while - so forgive me if someone else has made these connections before or they've been debunked. This theory includes references to what I think may be major events in Book 5. Anyway, here we go:

Originally, all Unmade were part of 10 'Elemental' Spren of Roshar with connections to each of the Surges respectively. When Odium came to Roshar, he successfully 'unmade' 9 of them into the Corrupted/Void versions, but was unable to unmake the 10th Spren, the Wind/Adhesion. This was because it was the most Connected to Honor ("The winds are of Honor" - Oathbringer) and is the reason that Voidbringers don't have Adhesion - because corrupting the Surgespren allows for that surge to be used by them.

I believe that Sja-anat is the Spren of Truth as her unmade power seems closest to a form of spiritual Progression (regrowth) which is one of the Truthwatcher surges. Her perspective also aligns with being the element of Truth (Taker of Secrets, Englightening, etc.). She also seems to be able to corrupt Mistspren easier or they have an affinity with her as they are the only of her 'greater children' seen iirc - apart from Oathgate spren. She is also only visible as a reflection of light in the Physical Realm, the exact same appearance as a Mistspren. She may also be close to Cultivation as she shares her surge with one of the Cultivationspren's surges. This may explain her opposition to Odium and indirect alliance with Surgebinders, as she could be either working directly with or be aligned with Cultivation.

There is strong evidence of the significance of Rock/Stone in the books (Shinovar/Szeth's worship of it, rejected book 5 title, Ryshadium hooves, Herdazian nails, Horneater teeth, etc.) - meaning that there are at least 3 major 'elemental' forces that coincidentally align with the Radiant Order names. The Spren of Stone is probably Dai-Gonarthis as we are yet to find out its abilities, but there are references to it 'scouring Amia' (earthquakes?), aligning with what has been hinted is happening/about to happen in Shinovar, a place that worships Rock/Stone.

Finally, we know that Ba-Ado-Mishram has some power over Connection, indicating a relation to Bondsmiths and Tension (that likely somehow enables the Bondsmith power over Connection, otherwise Windrunners would also be able to influence it in the same way). Re-Shephir has obvious relation to Transformation and Midnight Essence (which may count as a core element), and Moelach has future sight which has only been seen to be possible through corrupted Illumination (Renarin). Chemoarish is referred to as the Dustmother - a pretty clear connection to the Dustbringers and possibly Dust as an element.

Bonus super loose connections: Glys appears as a snowflake, so maybe Truth is just the ideal of Sja-anat, while Snow is the manifestation (making Truth literally a main part of the cover of book 5)? The Skybreakers/Gravitation could be related to Ashertmarn as they essentially embody a disregard for/corruption of law.

I would a make a chart for this, but there are too many gaps both in terms of elements and a few of the Unmade. If you have any more evidence/theories/confirmations connecting to this, anything that disproves any part of it, or any questions, let me know!

[alder24]

Welcome to the Shard  

10 minutes ago, Lock said:

Originally, all Unmade were part of 10 'Elemental' Spren of Roshar with connections to each of the Surges respectively. When Odium came to Roshar, he successfully 'unmade' 9 of them into the Corrupted/Void versions, but was unable to unmake the 10th Spren, the Wind/Adhesion. This was because it was the most Connected to Honor ("The winds are of Honor" - Oathbringer) and is the reason that Voidbringers don't have Adhesion - because corrupting the Surgespren allows for that surge to be used by them.

Well, here is a problem with the number 10 - the Nightwacher was originally one of those ancient, pre-Shattering spren, changed by Cultivation. It doesn't add up with 10 being 9 Unmades + 1 Wind. WaT ch 3:

Quote

“When this world was created,” Wit said, “long before Honor, Cultivation, or Odium arrived, Adonalsium left something behind on it. Sometimes it’s called the Old Magic. That term is applied to the Nightwatcher, who came—with Cultivation’s efforts—from one of those ancient spren. Listen to the Wind when it speaks, Kaladin. It’s weaker than it once was, but it has seen so very much.”

It's also likely that Surges in the current state didn't exist on Roshar before the Shattering as those are influenced by Shards inhabiting the system. Number 10 is specifically associated with Honor, which is also a post Shattering development - there isn't any reason for why there had to be 10 ancient spren created by Adonalsium and not 22 or 16. 

Spoiler

LewsTherinTelescope

You've said before that, while the Ten Surges arose due to perception of what things are fundamental forces, there were "seeds" that influenced what people perceived as fundamental. Is knowledge of the Rosharan Shards and Dawnshards the "seed" referenced here?

Brandon Sanderson

The Shards yes, but I wouldn't say the Dawnshards were involved directly--but the Shards were influenced by the Dawnshards, so... It gets muddy.

General Reddit 2021 (March 11, 2021)

 

20 minutes ago, Lock said:

but there are references to it 'scouring Amia' (earthquakes?)

Just people invading and destroying Aimia, possibly under Unmade influence. No reports of any earthquakes. Coppermind:

Quote

Not long after the Recreance and the fall of the Radiants, the other kingdoms turned on Aimia. They saw the fabrials and lanceryn that the kingdom had and wanted that wealth for themselves. The invaders destroyed the fabrials keeping the island's ecosystem alive, and the naturally inhospitable storms and cold weather returned. Having relied on the Radiants for protection, the Aimians lacked military defenses, and many people were killed in the fighting. 
[...]
In her work Mythica, Hessi posited that Dai-Gonarthis may have been responsible for the scouring

 

21 minutes ago, Lock said:

aligning with what has been hinted is happening/about to happen in Shinovar, a place that worships Rock/Stone.

Shins also worship the Sun and Stars too. Horneaters also worship gods of the mountain. There is also the mountain of Ur whose stone spoke to Venli. It's not like Shinovar is the only place for a spren of stone to be of significance.

[Lock]

Thanks for the detailed feedback! I still think there are too many connections for my theory to be completely debunked, such as Sja-anat's connection to the Mistspren, Chemoarish's connection to the Dustbringers through one of its names, regular mentions of rocks being important even outside of Shinovarian culture (My original statement wasn't meant to suggest that Shin are the only ones who worship rocks, but thematically I would imagine that a rock related Spren would appear in Shinovar - there would be quite a lot of setup for it in-text), etc.

Somehow I already forgot that Wit referred to the Wind as Old Magic, so thanks for reminding me. However, I think the quote from Wit allows my theory to be mostly true with  some adjustments. Just as Cultivation managed to create/extract the Nightwatcher from the Old Magic, perhaps Honor extracted the pre-unmade Unmade and Wind to govern over the surges. Surges existed in an unrestricted state on Ashyn, potentially allowing anyone to use any Surge (I don't know if there is confirmation they could specifically do this). I believe in Rhythm of War it is mentioned that Honor restricted the surges in some way when the humans went to Roshar, so it is possible that Surges were of the Old Magic and Honor split it to divide the powers - thereby creating 10 Spren. This may also explain how Honor ended up weaker than the other Shards - as well as potentially weakening himself to protect the Wind. This is getting pretty theoretical, so I'll leave it here.

Edited September 16, 2024 by Lock
Clarity

[bmcclure7]

44 minutes ago, Lock said:

Thanks for the detailed feedback! I still think there are too many connections for my theory to be completely debunked, such as Sja-anat's connection to the Mistspren, Chemoarish's connection to the Dustbringers through one of its names, regular mentions of rocks being important even outside of Shinovarian culture (My original statement wasn't meant to suggest that Shin are the only ones who worship rocks, but thematically I would imagine that a rock related Spren would appear in Shinovar - there would be quite a lot of setup for it in-text), etc.

Somehow I already forgot that Wit referred to the Wind as Old Magic, so thanks for reminding me. However, I think the quote from Wit allows my theory to be mostly true with  some adjustments. Just as Cultivation managed to create/extract the Nightwatcher from the Old Magic, perhaps Honor extracted the pre-unmade Unmade and Wind to govern over the surges. Surges existed in an unrestricted state on Ashyn, potentially allowing anyone to use any Surge (I don't know if there is confirmation they could specifically do this). I believe in Rhythm of War it is mentioned that Honor restricted the surges in some way when the humans went to Roshar, so it is possible that Surges were of the Old Magic and Honor split it to divide the powers - thereby creating 10 Spren. This may also explain how Honor ended up weaker than the other Shards - as well as potentially weakening himself to protect the Wind. This is getting pretty theoretical, so I'll leave it here.

Let me propose a solution to this predicament with a theory of my own that I think will work with yours.

What if the wind and BAM are the same person? What if the wind is what’s left of preunmade BAM A splinter created right before she was unmade? Would explain why BAM seems to have similar abilities to a bondsmith spren 

[Lock]

23 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Let me propose a solution to this predicament with a theory of my own that I think will work with yours.

What if the wind and BAM are the same person? What if the wind is what’s left of preunmade BAM A splinter created right before she was unmade? Would explain why BAM seems to have similar abilities to a bondsmith spren 

I actually had that thought at some point when I was creating this theory, but I couldn't quite make it work at the time. Now that I remember the Nightwatcher is directly related to the others, with some shuffling around that there are an even ten (if I'm not forgetting another Spren - and assuming the Stormfather isn't part of the Old Magic) - I didn't really have a Unmade that matched the Edgedancers, so the Nightwatcher would be a great candidate.

However, it would adjust the theory to the Surges being split by a combination of Honor and Cultivation and I'm not sure if this is supported by the text. Also I think there is enough evidence to suggest that Tension is somehow important to Bondsmith's Connection powers (its their primary Surge on the chart - which seems to have a pattern of having an untapped ability with both Kaladin and Shallan, Adhesion doesn't appear to have any affect on Connection with the Windrunners, it would be kinda random to make it one of the Bondsmiths abilities if it had no additional use) - so it wouldn't be impossible for Ba-Ado-Mishram to be the Tension Spren imo.

I think with current knowledge, both of these theories have about as much weight as the other.

[Rorzikel]

On 9/16/2024 at 12:39 PM, Lock said:

I believe that Sja-anat is the Spren of Truth as her unmade power seems closest to a form of spiritual Progression (regrowth) which is one of the Truthwatcher surges.

My issue with this is that Sja-Anat describes her Enlightening as a form of the Transformation surge.

Rhythm of War Interlude 2:

Quote

She did not corrupt. She Enlightened them, showing them that a different path was possible. Did not the humans revere Transformation-the ability of all beings to become someone new, someone better-as a core ideal of their religion? Yet they grew angry when she let spren change?

This is echoed in Raboniel, a Transformation Fused, using her powers to corrupt/Unmake the Sibling.

RoW Chapter 42

Spoiler

You must move quickly, the Sibling repeated. The Lady of Pains has the Surge of Transformation and dangerous knowledge. She will infuse my entire heart -the pillar- in the proper order, using her Voidlight. In so doing, she would corrupt me and leave me leave me as one of the Unmade....

Finally, I have some thoughts on some of these Unmade you sort into matches with Orders (though I have no issue with BAM)

On 9/16/2024 at 12:39 PM, Lock said:

Finally, we know that Ba-Ado-Mishram has some power over Connection, indicating a relation to Bondsmiths and Tension (that likely somehow enables the Bondsmith power over Connection, otherwise Windrunners would also be able to influence it in the same way). Re-Shephir has obvious relation to Transformation and Midnight Essence (which may count as a core element), and Moelach has future sight which has only been seen to be possible through corrupted Illumination (Renarin). Chemoarish is referred to as the Dustmother - a pretty clear connection to the Dustbringers and possibly Dust as an element.

On Re-Shephir, I'd contest that she has a strong argument for Lightweaving. Part of that is built on how I see Sja-Anat as holding that role (if each Unmade corresponds to one surge), but also because her Midnight Essence does not corrupt or change existing things but instead mimics and copies. These copies feel more like Lightweavings with substance and limited autonomy.

Moelach, I think there could be other surges with futuresight potential, but it's a point in your placement's favor.

Chemoarish I strongly believe can't be the Dustbringer equivalent just because of a name association when the Thrill was sealed away in a perfect ruby. Nergaoul being sealed in a ruby, Mishram being sealed in a heliodor, Yelig-nar using an amethyst as a housing (originally smokestone but changed in a later version to amethyst). There are patterns to the gemstones relevant to certain unmade, and I think that outweighs bynames.

[Pianoboy]

On 9/16/2024 at 10:07 AM, alder24 said:

 

Well, here is a problem with the number 10 - the Nightwacher was originally one of those ancient, pre-Shattering spren, changed by Cultivation. It doesn't add up with 10 being 9 Unmades + 1 Wind. WaT ch 3:

 

After looking at this other shard post (shown below) I think there might be more than 10 pre-shattering great spren on roshar. Perhaps there are 10 for the surges as well as other "Old Magic" gods