Circumstantial Squires

[Trusk'our he/him]

A Radiant can grant Surgebinding to certain individuals by swearing them in as Squires. These individuals must be accepting of the demands of their oaths and capable of understanding them. 

Would it be plausible for a Radiant to swear in Squires based on a particular need, then?

For example, could a Lightweaver swear the witness of a crime so they could Lightweave the face of the perpetrator?

Maybe a Windrunner swears in a soldier dying on the front lines to save them- protect them. Or, perhaps their Squires occasionally get cut down in battle, so they have others prepared to be sworn in during the fight for the healing, speed, strength, and stamina it would provide for the front lines (not to mention moral).

One possibility I find most interesting, could a Skybreaker swear in deputies of the local law keepers, maybe even temporarily if the law of that land specifically stated it could be done during times of duress (but that such power would be dissolved after the time of need)?

Definitely not the traditional way to get Surgebinders, but there may be more flexibility than used previously. 

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

A Radiant can grant Surgebinding to certain individuals by swearing them in as Squires.

As far as we know, only the Skybreakers swear in Squires.

With Windrunner's it is shown that a Connection has to be made wth the Radiant, and the potential Squire has to have sworn the First Oath (Lopen - end of WoR, Bridge 4 - Oathbringer, Bridge 13 becoming Teft's Squires as he trained them in the Chasms, then swore the Third Oath allowing him to have his own Squires). 

With Lightweaver, we only see that the Connection is required, as Vathah became Shallan's squire in Kholinar without saying the First Oath first (but did require the Connection to her).

Not saying it is impossible, but it does not seem likely as the Connection (likely to both Spren and Radiant) seems to be the common aspect (except Skybreakers, who must be Squires first to be chosen by a Highspren - though we do not know if this was an artifact of their choice to remain hidden post-Recreance). 

[Determination]

If Squireship was as simple as speaking the Words to a Knight, Dalinar would be swearing in every soldier in the coalition's armies.

I agree that it doesn't seem like you can just swear in any random person as your Squire, regardless of your Order. Skybreakers included - remember, the people they swear in as squires are already carefully selected, and their relatively structured approach to recruiting Squires probably reflects the mentality of their highspren or the Knights themselves more than it does any functional difference in how their Surges work.

It seems pretty clear that in every case, the surgebinding abilities don't begin to manifest until the person not only knows and understands the First Ideal, but also chooses to live up to that Ideal. Actually speaking the Words appears to basically be a formality, even for a Knight - we essentially get direct confirmation of that at the end of Rhythm of War.

 

[Treamayne]

5 hours ago, Determination said:

until the person not only knows and understands the First Ideal, but also chooses to live up to that Ideal.

I would say that the latter supercedes the former. Afterall, Vathah Lightwove without ever having heard or spoken the first Ideal when he became Shallan Squire in Kholinar - but he had definitely been living the first ideal as he changed from teh brigand Shallan found in the Frostlands, to the competant leader and spy he was training to be in Oathbringer. Granted - that's only one example and being a Shallan chapter is always subject to "unreliable narrator."

[Determination]

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I would say that the latter supercedes the former. Afterall, Vathah Lightwove without ever having heard or spoken the first Ideal when he became Shallan Squire in Kholinar - but he had definitely been living the first ideal as he changed from teh brigand Shallan found in the Frostlands, to the competant leader and spy he was training to be in Oathbringer. Granted - that's only one example and being a Shallan chapter is always subject to "unreliable narrator."

I'm not sure if the "unreliable narrator" literary device applies to that scene in particular, though it's certainly a big factor in Shallan's chapters in general. There didn't seem to be anything linking it to one of Shallan's "nope out" memories (granted, we don't neccessarily know about all of those, yet...) so I'd be surprised if the situation wasn't as it was presented.

At any rate, I believe we agree about what exactly was going on with Vathah - that it was precisely because he had become something more than he was before, that he began to manifest the powers. Regardless of his lack of knowledge of the Ideals, he had been living the First, and that was enough.

As far as living superceding understanding, I do think living is certainly the more important piece by far, but in my mind, living the Ideal requires understanding it. Let me clarify what I mean by "knowing and understanding the Ideal" - the person needs to know and understand the meaning of the Ideal, they need to fully grasp what it means to for them personally to live up to the Ideal, and finally they need to recognize that they are holding themselves to the Ideal. All of these things together are basically what constitutes making an oath. But what's not included in that definition is requiring them to know that the Ideal they've discovered is the First Ideal of the Knights Radiant, if that makes sense.

In other words, I think a person could totally become a Squire even if they had no knowledge whatsoever of any of the Ideals, so long as they had (even unconsciously) formed a moral code consistent with the expectations of the First Ideal, begun to hold themselves to it, and recognized that they had made this "oath", even if only to themselves.

There is some evidence that it requires the person to recognize that the Ideal has changed them in some way, even if they don't attribute that change to the Ideal specifically (Oathbringer, ch 77):

Quote

“You know, they’re said to have quite the fortune at the Mausoleum. The Tenet family riches are…” He trailed off as he saw her expression. “No riches, then.”

“We get the food to pay the cult, then we get out.”

“Fine.” He settled on the image of the man sweeping around his pallet, staring at it. “You know, when you reformed me from banditry, I figured I was done with stealing.”

“This is different.”

“Different how? We stole mostly food back then too, Brightness. Just wanted to stay alive and forget.”

“And do you still want to forget?”

He grunted. “No, suppose I don’t. Suppose I sleep a little better now at night, don’t I?”

[...]

“Time to move these meetings to another location, eh, Vathah?” She looked back at the table. And found someone else sitting there.

I don't think it was a coincidence that it was only after Shallan prompted to think about how he had changed, that the powers manifested. He certainly hadn't done anything more to live the Ideal since they sat down to chat!

 

[Quantus he/him]

17 hours ago, Determination said:

If Squireship was as simple as speaking the Words to a Knight, Dalinar would be swearing in every soldier in the coalition's armies.

Bondsmith squires didnt get surges or stormlight, historically.  It was a purely honorary thing.  

17 hours ago, Determination said:

I agree that it doesn't seem like you can just swear in any random person as your Squire, regardless of your Order. Skybreakers included - remember, the people they swear in as squires are already carefully selected, and their relatively structured approach to recruiting Squires probably reflects the mentality of their highspren or the Knights themselves more than it does any functional difference in how their Surges work.

It seems pretty clear that in every case, the surgebinding abilities don't begin to manifest until the person not only knows and understands the First Ideal, but also chooses to live up to that Ideal. Actually speaking the Words appears to basically be a formality, even for a Knight - we essentially get direct confirmation of that at the end of Rhythm of War.

 

It's definitely not just a conscious choice in the case of the Windrunners, or else Bridge Four would have all gotten powers together instead of it taking time with a few of them.  But as far as actually knowing the Words vs just understanding and accepting the meaning behind them, it's definitely the latter (or at least can be).  Kaladin got didnt learn about the actual Immortal Words until later on after he'd already started showing Powers. I think he Felt the Words went he chose not to Jump that time and that was good enough for the Bond, even if he didnt learn the Words until later. 

[Determination]

27 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Bondsmith squires didnt get surges or stormlight, historically.  It was a purely honorary thing. 

Sorry, I probably wasn't very clear what I meant there. I didn't mean he'd be swearing Bondsmith squires, I meant he'd have instituted a policy where each soldier was sworn as a squire to some Order or another, likely dependent on the role of the individual soldier or their unit. After all, it'd be pretty foolish to have any un-Invested troops if Squires worked the way that was described in the original post.

39 minutes ago, Quantus said:

It's definitely not just a conscious choice in the case of the Windrunners, or else Bridge Four would have all gotten powers together instead of it taking time with a few of them. 

I agree. I suppose I didn't actually include the part after "choosing to live up to the Ideal" where they actually, you know, do that, but it was supposed to be in there.

[Trusk'our he/him]

15 minutes ago, Determination said:

Sorry, I probably wasn't very clear what I meant there. I didn't mean he'd be swearing Bondsmith squires, I meant he'd have instituted a policy where each soldier was sworn as a squire to some Order or another, likely dependent on the role of the individual soldier or their unit. After all, it'd be pretty foolish to have any un-Invested troops if Squires worked the way that was described in the original post.

I mean, even if they could swear in Squires easily based on circumstance, they'd still have a sharp maximum limit that could gain Surgebinding based on the number of Radiants available. 

[Determination]

Just now, Trusk'our said:

I mean, even if they could swear in Squires easily based on circumstance, they'd still have a sharp maximum limit that could gain Surgebinding based on the number of Radiants available. 

True, if the Squire limit still applies then that's going to put the brakes on the whole "Oops All Squires" strategy. Though I don't think we actually know what that limit is, do we?

I had thought the Windrunners were probably at or near the limit at the beginning of RoW, but that would mean a Windrunner on average only gets about five Squires. (Rhythm of War, ch 5: 300 Windrunners - 50 Knights = 250 Squires) Kaladin by himself had more than that by the end of Oathbringer. I saw a count somewhere that he had about 30, but I don't know how accurate it is. If it's correct, that should get you at least 1500 Windrunners, including Squires. And we don't actually know how many more Squires Kaladin could have picked up, if any.

We don't have good head counts of the other Orders or any information about their Squire limits, so we can't say much about those. I don't think there were any mention of Cultivationspren/Peakspren/Mistspren shortages though, so somewhat counter-intuitively they might actually be able to generate even more Squires than the Honorspren-starved Windrunners...

It's interesting to think how different things might have been if you could hire Squires with the equivalent of an "I agree to the Terms and Conditions" checkbox instead of all this "become a better person" business.

[Duxredux he/him]

Clever idea, but it has a major hurdle that no one has addressed. It's not the First Ideal that qualifies you as a Squire, it's the Second. This is for at least Windrunners and Skybreakers. This was outright stated that swearing the First Ideal alone would not allow the Skybreaker acolytes to draw in Stormlight or utilize the Surges. It's after Skar talks to Lyn about why she really wants to be a Windrunner, to be protecting people, that she gains Light. My guess is that the quoted sections about Vathah are highlighting a truth he has discovered about himself. A Lightweaver requiring witnesses in a trial to admit a deeply personal truth to themselves is unlikely to consistently work. Temporary Oaths in general might irritate the Stormfather or the relevant Radiant spren.

So... yes, circumstantial Squires could be possible, but I don't think that walking into a room or city and asking people you've never met or observed to uphold the law or declare truths about themselves to work at all reliably. I think it could come up in special circumstances, but I doubt it would ever becoming standard practice. 

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, Determination said:

but that would mean a Windrunner on average only gets about five Squires. (Rhythm of War, ch 5: 300 Windrunners - 50 Knights = 250 Squires)

FYI - this math makes an incorrect assumption. Only Third Oath Windrunners have Squires (hence Lopen breathing light shortly after Kaladin's figth with Szeth - end of WoR). 250ish squires would likely have all been from 10-20 Knights (or less - as the only confirmed 3rd Oath Knights during RoW are Kaladin, Teft, Lopen, Sigzil, Huio - but there are likely a few more). The only "count" we have (SInce Bridge 4s numbers varied widely and they held extra try-outs to get more squires) is the quote from Dalinar in RoW that "all of brige 13 became Teft's squires" - since Kaladin formed the crews into Platoons of 50 each - that means an approximate maximum of 40-50 squires per radiant. with 25-35 likely being average for established teams (and in-line with Bridge 4's numbers). 

[Determination]

2 hours ago, Duxredux said:

Clever idea, but it has a major hurdle that no one has addressed. It's not the First Ideal that qualifies you as a Squire, it's the Second. This is for at least Windrunners and Skybreakers. This was outright stated that swearing the First Ideal alone would not allow the Skybreaker acolytes to draw in Stormlight or utilize the Surges.

This seems to be true for the Skybreakers (who we already know are weird in general), but not for the Windrunners. In Oathbringer ch 37 it's strongly implied that the First Ideal is sufficient:

Quote

“The first step will be to speak the Ideal,” Kaladin said. “I suspect a few of you have already said it. But for the rest, if you wish to be a squire to the Windrunners, you will need to swear it.”

They began belting out the words. Everyone knew the right ones by now. Lunamor whispered the Ideal.

Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination.

Kaladin handed Lopen a pouch full of gemstones. “The real test, and proof of your squireship, will be learning to draw Stormlight into yourselves. [...]”

If becoming a Windrunner Squire required the Second Ideal, then this whole scene is just a total misdirect. And it's not a Shallan chapter, so that seems unlikely.

I skimmed for a bit, but couldn't find any mention of First Ideal Windrunners who had bonded a spren. The existence of those would pretty directly imply the First is sufficient for a squire (or else they'd all start at the Second), unless they all bonded their spren before joining the Order (like Kaladin did).

At the very least, I would definitely concede that a Windrunner Squire would probably be ready to swear the Second Ideal pretty much immediately after bonding a spren.

2 hours ago, Duxredux said:

My guess is that the quoted sections about Vathah are highlighting a truth he has discovered about himself.

I like this interpretation. It feels right, in the context of the scene. My only reservation is that I'd expect truths to really only have an effect if he'd bonded a Cryptic already. Or maybe even if he just caught the attention of one, like Elhokar had. I guess he might have and just not realized it, but I'm not aware of any other evidence of that. And I feel like Pattern might have said something? Maybe not, Pattern's weird.

54 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

FYI - this math makes an incorrect assumption. Only Third Oath Windrunners have Squires

[...]

since Kaladin formed the crews into Platoons of 50 each - that means an approximate maximum of 40-50 squires per radiant. with 25-35 likely being average for established teams (and in-line with Bridge 4's numbers). 

Yep, I somehow forgot that 1st/2nd Ideal Windrunners exist. This observation brings the stated numbers much more in line with the book's general portrayal of the Windrunners being basically at capacity*. Thanks for catching that, the inconsistency was bothering me.

 

*Edit: I guess they would get closer to that 1500 number as more Knights earn their Blades and unlock another 30-50 Squire "slots"... But it's not exactly the kind of thing you can rush, so it still makes sense they'd want to move things along by recruiting Honorspren.

Edited September 17 by Determination

[Duxredux he/him]

On 9/16/2024 at 7:50 PM, Determination said:

If becoming a Windrunner Squire required the Second Ideal, then this whole scene is just a total misdirect. And it's not a Shallan chapter, so that seems unlikely.

I skimmed for a bit, but couldn't find any mention of First Ideal Windrunners who had bonded a spren. The existence of those would pretty directly imply the First is sufficient for a squire (or else they'd all start at the Second), unless they all bonded their spren before joining the Order (like Kaladin did).

At the very least, I would definitely concede that a Windrunner Squire would probably be ready to swear the Second Ideal pretty much immediately after bonding a spren.

Well... Kaladin doesn't have to have Shallan's particular inconsistencies to have zero idea for the full mechanism of how a Radiant acquires a squire. Brandon loves misdirection in the magic, particularly when smart people arrive at the logical and completely false conclusion.

Beyond that, if only the first Ideal was necessary to become a squire, then I add in the next scenario. At the height of power for the Knights Radiant, an as-yet unbonded individual has a bunch of friends at Urithiru. They become friends with 3+ Oath Radiants of all Orders. They swear the first Ideal, the Ideal that is shared by all orders, "Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination." They are in close proximity to all of their friends. What Surges do they gain access to? It seems very unlikely to me that choosing to avoid pursuing the Oaths would let someone use all the Surges (though they wouldn't have Bondsmithing - nor am I sure that they would have Division, as the Skybreakers do not gain that Surge until the 3rd Ideal, and I could believe the Dustbringers would have the same restriction). 

And so, I think that even if you do not need to have said the 2nd Ideal, I think that the life you are living will tend to polarize you toward one Order and Radiant as a Squire. I'd say that all of Bridge Four that charged the Tower with Kaladin probably would have qualified as Squires in Syl's eyes, though they may not have accepted it themselves as of yet.

[Determination]

8 hours ago, Duxredux said:

Well... Kaladin doesn't have to have Shallan's particular inconsistencies to have zero idea for the full mechanism of how a Radiant acquires a squire. Brandon loves misdirection in the magic, particularly when smart people arrive at the logical and completely false conclusion.

Fair enough, Kaladin doesn't necessarily know exactly how it works, he could easily be wrong. And there is some evidence in that scene (and elsewhere) that the potential Squires at least need to be on their way to the Second Ideal. I just don't think that a Squire is being held to quite the same standard as a bonded Knight trying to swear the Second Ideal. I think there's likely to be room for a Squire to bond a spren but still not be ready for the Second Ideal, but it would be a pretty narrow window for sure.

At the very least, we didn't see the whole "crack of thunder, explosion of power" business from the newly-minted Squires, but it's not exactly a stretch to say that would only happen for a bonded Knight swearing the Second Ideal anyway.

8 hours ago, Duxredux said:

They swear the first Ideal, the Ideal that is shared by all orders, "Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination." They are in close proximity to all of their friends. What Surges do they gain access to?

Presumably it would be the Knight that they have the strongest Connection to, in particular the Connection representing their suitability toward that Order.

I could imagine a hypothetical almost-Squire who's like, exactly equally-Connected to one Knight of each Order and exactly equally suitable to each Order's Ideals, and then he swears the First Ideal. At that point I don't know what would happen, but I agree they certainly wouldn't become the Radiant equivalent of a Mistborn. (Gotta bond a whole stack of Honorblades to do that )

Maybe it would be random, maybe it wouldn't work at all, or maybe it requires Intent (seems to be a popular choice for Brandon these days) and they have to choose for themselves. Intent at least would agree with the notion of being "on your way" to the Second Ideal, so if I had to guess, I'd go with that one.

8 hours ago, Duxredux said:

And so, I think that even if you do not need to have said the 2nd Ideal, I think that the life you are living will tend to polarize you toward one Order and Radiant as a Squire. I'd say that all of Bridge Four that charged the Tower with Kaladin probably would have qualified as Squires in Syl's eyes, though they may not have accepted it themselves as of yet.

I agree completely with this. Bridge Four was already Second Ideal material at least by the time they charged the Tower. (Except Moash, he was always motivated by something other than protecting people. Brandon was dropping hints that guy was bad news every time his name came up.)

[+hwiles He/Him]

On 9/15/2024 at 7:52 PM, Trusk'our said:

A Radiant can grant Surgebinding to certain individuals by swearing them in as Squires. These individuals must be accepting of the demands of their oaths and capable of understanding them. 

Would it be plausible for a Radiant to swear in Squires based on a particular need, then?

For example, could a Lightweaver swear the witness of a crime so they could Lightweave the face of the perpetrator?

Maybe a Windrunner swears in a soldier dying on the front lines to save them- protect them. Or, perhaps their Squires occasionally get cut down in battle, so they have others prepared to be sworn in during the fight for the healing, speed, strength, and stamina it would provide for the front lines (not to mention moral).

One possibility I find most interesting, could a Skybreaker swear in deputies of the local law keepers, maybe even temporarily if the law of that land specifically stated it could be done during times of duress (but that such power would be dissolved after the time of need)?

Definitely not the traditional way to get Surgebinders, but there may be more flexibility than used previously. 

I could only imagine this being successful for prospective Squires who already have some level of Connection developed to the Radiant who might deputize them, and I expect that while it could be circumstancial and temporary, that probably wouldn't be the Radiant's decision to make.

For example, a random soldier who had been training with a windrunner and their squires for several months and was taken into frontline combat side-by-side with them, might find snapping into the role of squire very easy to do if wounded or after witnessing a few friends get wounded/killed, as intense emotional trauma can trigger radical and sudden changes in a person's behavior down to the core of their self. These changes can be unpredictable and are not always necessarily permanent in nature however, so...I could imagine a person who simply isn't a very good candidate for developing as a Radiant being battleshocked into living and breathing the first Ideal well enough to draw on Light as a squire, then regressing back to their more true-to-self beliefs and losing Squire status after some combination of time, therapy, peace and quiet, time away, ect.

The concept of Skybreakers deputizing local law enforcement is extremely intriguing. I would find it difficult to believe that such a process could work in front-half Roshar simply because their legal codes are so fractured and divergent in their fundamental values...however, if all nations adopted changes that called for them to recognize and cooperate with Skybreakers as a legally recognized organizational body, and Skybreakers and Highspren codified their recruitment methods to specifically prioritize individuals employed in law enforcement roles in those nations, then...yeah, those people would all begin to gradually develop a shared Connection on a spiritual level that could reinforced iteratively. It would be really weird and difficult to get to that level of transparent international collaboration, but I could totally imagine a back-half 4th-oath skybreaker walking into any major Rosharn city, explaining their purpose to a local lord/governor/mayor/queen/ect. And requisitioning and swearing in a dozen temporary squires for some defined duration or until some particular goal is met. Basically like live-fire recruitment exercises where any deputies who show particular promise, might get invited to quit their job and go back to Urithiru for a very peculiar and dangerous internship.