Chana rules in Shinovar

[Erklitt]

This OP doesn't really contain WaT spoilers, but I think answers might, so I placed it here.

 

Let me start with a few quotes:

Quote

[Adrotagia] handed him a small bundle of his favorite jams, all the way from Shinovar. Those were increasingly rare, now that trade into the strange country had cut off. The Diagram indicated it was likely one or more of the Unmade had set up there. (RoW I3)

 

Quote

Ishar to Szeth:
"The Shin serve the heralds." 
...
"The Shin had accepted the Unmade. Tried to make gods of them. I saved them." (RoW ch 111)

Yes, I know Ishar is not trustworthy, but he might still say some true things. And Szeth's information is clearly out of date, so there might be more truth in Ishar's words than Szeth thinks possible, even though we can assume Ishar's actions in Shinovar weren't as benevolent as he tries to assert.

 

Quote

Ash:
"[The Shin] tried to kill me, but that I could take. It was when they started to worship me..." (RoW ch 17)

As far as I know we have no timeframe for this, so it could be quite recent. Also, it's confirmation of Ishar's statement that the Shin worship the heralds.

Now, a few assumptions:

...which I think are likely, although I know we can't be certain:

• Based on the quotes above, the Shin worshipped the unmade for a while, but now they worship the heralds.
• The widely spread Chana theory is true. (Chana Davar died minutes before Gavilar.)
• At the time of Rysn's visit to Shinovar, which happened during WoK, Shinovar had not yet gone dark.
• Chana broke near the end of WoK, sending Taln stumbling into Kholinar.

So where is Chana now? 

We know the current whereabouts of all but Vedel and Chana, and Vedel might just have a successful little assassination business going. It is only Chana whom we are pretty sure we have never seen on screen, apart maybe from Shallan's flashbacks. If the 'Vedel is Lizz' theory is true we saw all of them in WoK except Chana (though in Ishar's case, we only heard him talked about). Brandon couldn't show her to us because she was on Braize.
 
But she has been back on Roshar since roughly the end of WoK.

One of her attributes was brave, so I would expect her to be a coward now. She might have gone as far away from the coming dangers (Everstorm, Parshendi fighters etc.) as she could, and try to sit out the whole Desolation. Where better than in a land that was always isolationist and now worships the heralds? She could have ordered them to go completely dark so as to have nothing to do with anything that is going on. And as she was once obedient, she might now enjoy playing Lord Ruler..

In short, Chana might hide - and rule - in Shinovar.

I think it all fits. What do you think?

Edited September 10, 2024 by Erklitt

[alder24]

43 minutes ago, Erklitt said:

Yes, I know Ishar is not trustworthy, but he might still say some true things. And Szeth's information is clearly out of date, so there might be more truth in Ishar's words than Szeth thinks possible, even though we can assume Ishar's actions in Shinovar weren't as benevolent as he tries to assert.

Serving Heralds and worshiping them are two different things. We know some Shins worship Heralds ever, Szeth included - they call them son/daughter of god for a reason. But just because they worship them it doesn't mean they planned to return Honorblades to Heralds and that's what they were talking about. 

55 minutes ago, Erklitt said:

• At the time of Rysn's visit to Shinovar, which happened during WoK, Shinovar had not yet gone dark.

Shinovar in OB was fine as well. They sent congratulation messages to Dalinar and warned them about the earlier coming of the Everstorm just before the battle of Thaylen field. 

49 minutes ago, Erklitt said:

In short, Chana might hide - and rule - in Shinovar.

I think it all fits. What do you think?

She might be there, but I don't think Ishar would want to share his power with her. Ishar is in Shinovar, he seems to rule over them now, after "saving" them from Unmades. I doubt it's Chana ruling there now. I think it's far more likely that the change in Shin's behavior happened because of Unmades first, then Ishar. 

[Erklitt]

@alder24 Thanks for giving me a chance to think through and elaborate on a few more points.

 

26 minutes ago, alder24 said:

But just because they worship them it doesn't mean they planned to return Honorblades to Heralds and that's what they were talking about. 

Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. That doesn't affect this theory either way. Even if they didn't, the statement that the Shin serve the heralds now might still be true. Neturo might have been a resistance fighter or he might have given up and acted exactly as Ishar says. Szeth has no way of knowing, and neither do we. Again: it's irrelevant in this context.
Also, truly worshipping someone but not obeying them would be a strange state of mind.

 

49 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Shinovar in OB was fine as well.

There's about three months between the end of WoK and the end of OB. My point was the darkening is fairly recent, recent enough to allow Chana to be the cause. It would have taken her time to get there and set up her rule - and her rules. So the timeline still works.

 

31 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I don't think Ishar would want to share his power with her.

Ishar has a lot of things to do. Rule Tukar for example. I would bet there's more behind that than just 'taking care' of a nation as a benevolent ruler. Dalinar finds him at the Tukar - Emul border, that's quite a way from Shinovar. Also, he is busy trying to bring Radiant spren into the PR. His Honorblade doesn't grant flying and he has no access to the Oathgates, so he wont be moving around very quickly. His operatives in Shadesmar need to travel quite a bit in their attempt to kidnap Radiant spren, so he has no easy way for travel between PR and CR without Oathgate or perpendicularity either.

As I see it, he went to Shinovar, got his Honorblade and did whatever else to turn the Shin from the unmade to the heralds, then left again. In his few lucid moments he tells Dalinar to meet him there, because in those moments he understands that there is a big problem there (in part started by him) that needs to be solved, so he plans to go there. But I don't see any hints that he's a resident ruler there. He might be quite content to let Chana keep the Shin in check.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Erklitt said:

Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. That doesn't affect this theory either way. Even if they didn't, the statement that the Shin serve the heralds now might still be true. Neturo might have been a resistance fighter or he might have given up and acted exactly as Ishar says. Szeth has no way of knowing, and neither do we. Again: it's irrelevant in this context.
Also, truly worshipping someone but not obeying them would be a strange state of mind.

Ok, now I get what you meant, I wasn't fully sure about this earlier. Yeah, it looks like Shins do serve Heralds now, at least Ishar. 

To be fair, Szeth didn't deny that Shins served Heralds, just that they didn't plan to return them their blades. 

1 hour ago, Erklitt said:

There's about three months between the end of WoK and the end of OB. My point was the darkening is fairly recent, recent enough to allow Chana to be the cause. It would have taken her time to get there and set up her rule - and her rules. So the timeline still works.

That wasn't any counterargument, just new information you might want to consider.

1 hour ago, Erklitt said:

Ishar has a lot of things to do. Rule Tukar for example. I would bet there's more behind that than just 'taking care' of a nation as a benevolent ruler. Dalinar finds him at the Tukar - Emul border, that's quite a way from Shinovar. Also, he is busy trying to bring Radiant spren into the PR. His Honorblade doesn't grant flying and he has no access to the Oathgates, so he wont be moving around very quickly. His operatives in Shadesmar need to travel quite a bit in their attempt to kidnap Radiant spren, so he has no easy way for travel between PR and CR without Oathgate or perpendicularity either.

Firstly, if he has time to experiment on Honorspren while ruling Tukar and leading it in the war with Emul, he certainly has enough free time to rule over Shins. Secondly he literally opened a perpendicularity in RoW, in which his entire army disappeared. He has a way to quickly move from Tukar to Shinovar. RoW ch 111:

Quote

“Wait,” Dalinar said as Ishar stood and slammed his fists together. A perpendicularity opened, as it had before, releasing a powerful explosion of light.
[...]
As they left the column of light, Dalinar could see Ishar’s soldiers stepping into the perpendicularity.
A short time later it vanished. The Herald, his men, and the Honorblade were gone. Transported into Shadesmar.

 

1 hour ago, Erklitt said:

As I see it, he went to Shinovar, got his Honorblade and did whatever else to turn the Shin from the unmade to the heralds, then left again. In his few lucid moments he tells Dalinar to meet him there, because in those moments he understands that there is a big problem there (in part started by him) that needs to be solved, so he plans to go there. But I don't see any hints that he's a resident ruler there.

His statement about meeting him in Shinovar indicates that he wanted to escape there and with previously said things it's a strong suggestion that he rules over Shinovar - Saving Shins from Unmades, them serving Heralds (whom Shins were worshiping earlier), Noturo begging Ishar to kill him and all of that.

So while there isn't anything that would prevent Chana from being there, it's far more likely Ishar is the only Herald there. There is also nothing that would suggest Chana is there. From the storytelling perspective, Chana shouldn't be in Shinovar, she should be somewhere where she and Shallan would be able to meet in WaT. Shinovar just isn't that place. 

[Erklitt]

@alder24 Well, let's wait and see - or in Brandons words: RAFO 

Edit: 

18 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Secondly he literally opened a perpendicularity in RoW, in which his entire army disappeared.

Thanks, I had completely overlooked that. You have a point there. But that still doesn't account for fast travel between Tukar and Shinovar, and for his lackeys having to follow Radiant spren over vast distances through Shadesmar. Maybe he just learned that from Dalinar? Or whatever.  Anyway: RAFO.

 

Edited September 10, 2024 by Erklitt

[Display-Names-Are-Stupid]

I thought that opening a perpendicularity was a new thing after Honor's death? My understanding was that Ishar was only able to do that after seeing Dalinar do it and his failed attempt to take the bond with the Stormfather from Dalinar. But I might be reading it wrong.