H-Chromium

[Through The Living Grub He/Him]

H-Chromium can "maybe steal destiny" and destiny is a topic of debate, but in  RoW, Ishar notes how Odium thinks he will fight Dalinar. Could a person steal that? Could you steal Vin's role in taking Preservation?

[Quantus he/him]

Pretty much, as best I can figure.  It might have been able to steal Sazed's destiny as the Hero of Ages.   It might be able to steal the Future that a person had seen via Flaring/Duralumin/Pure Atium.   Or really anything revealed by a Spiritual Realm Fortune effect, including Renarin's visions.  

Taken to an extreme where it's not locked to just actual Future events, it might be able to steal your Past & Future Probability for the use of Forgery; as in you Steal another person's overall Destiny so that you can Forge yourself as easily as if you were that other person.  

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Xiahida said:

H-Chromium can "maybe steal destiny" and destiny is a topic of debate, but in  RoW, Ishar notes how Odium thinks he will fight Dalinar. Could a person steal that? Could you steal Vin's role in taking Preservation?

Ishar did try to steal that. I think destiny might be something like this.

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

On 8/23/2024 at 12:40 PM, Xiahida said:

H-Chromium can "maybe steal destiny" and destiny is a topic of debate, but in  RoW, Ishar notes how Odium thinks he will fight Dalinar. Could a person steal that? Could you steal Vin's role in taking Preservation?

This is totally speculative and based on my own observation, so don't take it as gospel for at least a few years, but I don't believe H-chromium "steals" Destiny, so much as "Ruins" it.

I say this because I can't imagine or thought-experiment myself through "how" one could metaphysically implant and overwrite another person's Destiny over the top of their own without killing themself or, at the very least corrupting and locking virtually every node in their spiritweb immediately (because they would no longer make sense and be able to function as a network).

I do suspect that you could kill a person in a way that severs their Fortune from reality however and, as a simple matter of conservation, cosmere metaphysics require that that Investure (Fortune being an Investiture-object, be containered somewhere. That's what I think H-chromium spikes do. This would make them extremely powerful as a weapon of assassination against any magic users who are favored by any particular Shard, essentially worthless against 99.9% of any given population in general, and probably a very cruel and painful method of torturing and killing hemalurgists and any would-be inquisitors of the future...giving them a spike that they cannot metaphysically process without a complete destruction of self.

Could Ishi have torn the stormfather's bond away from dalinar to himself? Honestly, I don't believe so, not without killing all 3 of them or, at the very least, permanently damaging them to the point of it making little difference. The fact that he even tried is chilling enough in and of itself.

Edited August 26, 2024 by hwiles

[Through The Living Grub He/Him]

21 hours ago, hwiles said:

I say this because I can't imagine or thought-experiment myself through "how" one could metaphysically implant and overwrite another person's Destiny over the top of their own without killing themself or, at the very least corrupting and locking virtually every node in their spiritweb immediately (because they would no longer make sense and be able to function as a network).

 

It won't lock it down, it's saying "hey you were actually this too" like being an allomancer. It's like grafting a branch to a tree, it doesn't kill the tree, they meld and become one. If the spike is placed wrong it might warp your  soul, but that is an aspect of Hemalurgy.

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

18 minutes ago, Xiahida said:

It won't lock it down, it's saying "hey you were actually this too" like being an allomancer. It's like grafting a branch to a tree, it doesn't kill the tree, they meld and become one. If the spike is placed wrong it might warp your  soul, but that is an aspect of Hemalurgy.

Edit: had some confusing references, hopefully this edit helps clarify.

 

I respectfully have to disagree when it comes to Destiny specifically, though i agree that you're generally correct with that metaphor. Cosmeric Destiny seems to be very closely related to the real world concept of destiny. An individual person can't have two independent destinies. If someone "stole" someone's destiny to become a Shard's champion, would not any intelligent Shard simply select and groom a new champion rather than blindly accept a probably hostile actor being crammed down their throat? What about the destiny to become king or sovereign of a nation? Sure, you can hammer a railroad spike through a politician's chest and into your own, but that most assuredly is not going to convince anyone that you are fit to govern, no matter what magical identity theft you claim to have performed. Lol.

I think Fortune is very simply something that can be Ruined by Ruin's magic, but I don't believe the concept of a transplant makes sense from a basic 3-realms perspective. No one ever promised that hemalurgy always grants power; the power it grants is a side effect. It's main purpose is to change and destroy. What better manifestation of this could their be than a spike that tears destinies out of the future and leaves only an extremely hyper-poisonous suicide spike in their place?

Edited August 27, 2024 by hwiles

[Through The Living Grub He/Him]

1 hour ago, hwiles said:

An individual person can't have two independent destinies.

I'll admit to this. If you stole the destiny as Odium's champion but were meant to be his opponent, it would cause  problems. But if your Destiny doesn't conflict with the stolen one, then you should be fine. The main way I'm imagining it (even though it conflicts with H-Duralumin) is Connection to a Shard's plans. 

HoA:

Spoiler

Preservation planned for Vin to take up the Shard.

RoW:

Spoiler

Ishar tries to steal Dalinar's role as the one Odium sees as his opponent, and maybe if he had done it earlier his role as Odium's champion.

As long as there is no conflict in Destinies, you should be fine.

We could be totally wrong and H-Chromium does something else.

[Trusk'our he/him]

@hwiles, @Xiahida my current thought on H-destiny is that it is a similar function to Fortune (it probably is Fortune, but keyed to someone else's future and past).

What's more, H-chromium is the only metal that might do something. My thinking behind this is that you would be guided to take similar actions as the person who's destiny you stole, which could lead you down certain paths.

However, if someone wanted to take Wax's destiny of being Harmony's sword, Harmony doesn't have to continue this choice. He has agency and can choose to deviate from that course, just as a Hemalurgist who stole a future king's destiny to rule their nation wouldn't automatically be able to convince everyone else to let them rule.

Similarly, just because the Hemalurgist has an extra destiny doesn't mean they'll necessarily follow it, especially since they probably wouldn't have all the knowledge, skill, or Investiture of the person they took it from.

This is my current guess, at least; it doesn't destroy who you are, but might influence you to take actions and go to the right places at the right times to get an outcome someone else would have had.

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

5 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

@hwiles, @Xiahida my current thought on H-destiny is that it is a similar function to Fortune (it probably is Fortune, but keyed to someone else's future and past).

What's more, H-chromium is the only metal that might do something. My thinking behind this is that you would be guided to take similar actions as the person who's destiny you stole, which could lead you down certain paths.

However, if someone wanted to take Wax's destiny of being Harmony's sword, Harmony doesn't have to continue this choice. He has agency and can choose to deviate from that course, just as a Hemalurgist who stole a future king's destiny to rule their nation wouldn't automatically be able to convince everyone else to let them rule.

Similarly, just because the Hemalurgist has an extra destiny doesn't mean they'll necessarily follow it, especially since they probably wouldn't have all the knowledge, skill, or Investiture of the person they took it from.

This is my current guess, at least; it doesn't destroy who you are, but might influence you to take actions and go to the right places at the right times to get an outcome someone else would have had.

This makes pretty good sense overall, and...I can admit that I just find the concept of Destiny being transferable in any way between human bodies extremely distasteful on an ideological level, be the universe deterministic or probabilistic, or a combination of the two.

The close relationship between a person's spiritual Identity and their future Destiny just...I just really strongly suspect that surgically tampering with those parts of a character's soul (except in the finest and tiniest of ways) should be so unbelievably damaging as to be essentially as bad as death. Buuuuut...I can't prove it with an in-world example...yet.

[Through The Living Grub He/Him]

59 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

@hwiles, @Xiahida my current thought on H-destiny is that it is a similar function to Fortune (it probably is Fortune, but keyed to someone else's future and past).

What's more, H-chromium is the only metal that might do something. My thinking behind this is that you would be guided to take similar actions as the person who's destiny you stole, which could lead you down certain paths.

However, if someone wanted to take Wax's destiny of being Harmony's sword, Harmony doesn't have to continue this choice. He has agency and can choose to deviate from that course, just as a Hemalurgist who stole a future king's destiny to rule their nation wouldn't automatically be able to convince everyone else to let them rule.

Similarly, just because the Hemalurgist has an extra destiny doesn't mean they'll necessarily follow it, especially since they probably wouldn't have all the knowledge, skill, or Investiture of the person they took it from.

This is my current guess, at least; it doesn't destroy who you are, but might influence you to take actions and go to the right places at the right times to get an outcome someone else would have had.

This does make sense, and the free will is an issue. Thanks, for the insight

[Duxredux he/him]

I've wondered if Rashek killed Alendi with a Chromium spike and stole his Destiny as the one to use the Well of Ascension. There's a few things led me to this, notably in Secret History Preservation tells Kelsier that he can't use the Well of Ascension, first because he merged his soul with the power, second because Kelsier is not Connected enough to Preservation. Apparently there's a minimum Connection threshold to Preservation required to even use the Well in the first place. So how was angry, violent, jealous Rashek sufficiently Connected, considering what he immediately did with the power? Sure, Saze thinks he was ultimately a good man that was twisted by Ruin, but... I'm still iffy. Brandon may also be referring to other things, but he did say that TLR used Hemalurgy to pull off his most dramatic effects, and Ascending might fit that bill.

There's two big hurdles though. There's a few unknowns for metallurgic and Hemalurgic tech level for the time period. We know Alendi wore Hemalurgic piercings, and that Khlennium had managed steam powered tech, but not much else. Apparently Realmatic theory was known also. I think it's plausible that Chromium was known prior to TLR's suppression of technology. Considering the outcome, I also wouldn't put it pass Hoid to step in and offer Kwaan or Rashek some info and Chromium, but that feels a like a copout answer. The other hurdle is that Vin had to remove her earring to fully enter the Well as Ruin's power conflicted with the Well. It's a similar unknown if Rashek could have taken some of the power into himself to "prime the pump" so to say and jump start the process before removing the spike and fully Ascending.

I think the story works if Rashek didn't need to use Hemalurgy to steal Alendi's destiny, that he really was aligned with Preservation despite the character flaws seen most around the Khlenni Hero. I think it would also track that Rashek really wasn't suited for Preservation's power and that he cheated to get the power and was subsequently influenced by the residual effects to become TLR seeking an eternal empire. There would also be a bit of Irony if Hemalurgy was used to reinforce Ruin's prison.

 

Basically, I'd be on the lookout for something similar to this, where Destiny only needs to be stolen immediately before locking themselves into a position of power, particularly if the swap happens fast enough that it's difficult or impossible to counteract in a timely manner. Just as Ruin ignored Rashek and was thwarted at the last second by Kwaan's plan.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

I've wondered if Rashek killed Alendi with a Chromium spike and stole his Destiny as the one to use the Well of Ascension. There's a few things led me to this, notably in Secret History Preservation tells Kelsier that he can't use the Well of Ascension, first because he merged his soul with the power, second because Kelsier is not Connected enough to Preservation. Apparently there's a minimum Connection threshold to Preservation required to even use the Well in the first place. So how was angry, violent, jealous Rashek sufficiently Connected, considering what he immediately did with the power? Sure, Saze thinks he was ultimately a good man that was twisted by Ruin, but... I'm still iffy. Brandon may also be referring to other things, but he did say that TLR used Hemalurgy to pull off his most dramatic effects, and Ascending might fit that bill.

There's two big hurdles though. There's a few unknowns for metallurgic and Hemalurgic tech level for the time period. We know Alendi wore Hemalurgic piercings, and that Khlennium had managed steam powered tech, but not much else. Apparently Realmatic theory was known also. I think it's plausible that Chromium was known prior to TLR's suppression of technology. Considering the outcome, I also wouldn't put it pass Hoid to step in and offer Kwaan or Rashek some info and Chromium, but that feels a like a copout answer. The other hurdle is that Vin had to remove her earring to fully enter the Well as Ruin's power conflicted with the Well. It's a similar unknown if Rashek could have taken some of the power into himself to "prime the pump" so to say and jump start the process before removing the spike and fully Ascending.

I think the story works if Rashek didn't need to use Hemalurgy to steal Alendi's destiny, that he really was aligned with Preservation despite the character flaws seen most around the Khlenni Hero. I think it would also track that Rashek really wasn't suited for Preservation's power and that he cheated to get the power and was subsequently influenced by the residual effects to become TLR seeking an eternal empire. There would also be a bit of Irony if Hemalurgy was used to reinforce Ruin's prison.

 

Basically, I'd be on the lookout for something similar to this, where Destiny only needs to be stolen immediately before locking themselves into a position of power, particularly if the swap happens fast enough that it's difficult or impossible to counteract in a timely manner. Just as Ruin ignored Rashek and was thwarted at the last second by Kwaan's plan.

No, I don't think so. Rashek would be unable to Ascend with a Hemalurgic spike in him and he would need it to Ascend at all if that was the case. Vin wasn't even capable of drawing on Mists with a spike. No "prime the pump" would work. Not to mention that the art of Hemalurgy was unknown to all at that time.

Rashek tried to save the world, while Kelsier was always an agent of Ruin - that's why Kelsier lacked a sufficient Connection to Preservation. Even when Kelsier Ascended his first instinct was to kill Ruin - compare it to Vin when she immediately tried to save the world by fixing everything. This was hammered further down when Kelsier was shown the future and could compare his Connection to Preservation and Ruin. And if grooming was needed, Preservation just needed to make him breathe in some Mists - just like Vin did in early childhood. Leras could do it.

SH ch 2-3:

Quote

“You,” Preservation finally said. “Using my power. You.”
“You let the Lord Ruler do it.”
“He tried to save the world.”
“As did I.”
“You tried to rescue a boatful of people from a fire by sinking the boat, then claiming, ‘At least they didn’t burn to death.’” 

SH ch 3-3:

Quote

Unfortunately, in turning his attention away from Preservation he risked giving it to something else—something equally demanding. There was a second god here, black and terrible, the thing with the spines and spidery legs, sprouting from dark mists and reaching into everything throughout the land.
Including Kelsier.
In fact, his ties to Preservation were trivial by comparison to these hundreds of black fingers which attached him to that thing Beyond. He sensed a powerful satisfaction from it, along with an idea. Not words, just an undeniable fact.
You are mine, Survivor.