Did Szeth break his oaths at the end of RoW?

[Atlas333]

Obviously, spoilers for RoW.

 

When Szeth kills Taravangian isn't that breaking his oath to follow Dalinar? Because Dalinar ordered that Taravangian not be executed.

 

So how is this not a breaking of his oaths? I'm a little fuzzy on the timeline because it's been a bit but it seems that Skybreakers exercise more agency as they progress in their oaths so was going against Dalinar's orders okay because he was getting close to his fourth ideal?

I could buy that, but I wanted to see if there were any other explanations.

Edited August 13, 2024 by Atlas333

[alder24]

16 minutes ago, Atlas333 said:

Obviously, spoilers for RoW.

 

When Szeth kills Taravangian isn't that breaking his oath to follow Dalinar? Because Dalinar ordered that Taravangian not be executed.

 

So how is this not a breaking of his oaths? I'm a little fuzzy on the timeline because it's been a bit but it seems that Skybreakers exercise more agency as they progress in their oaths so was going against Dalinar's orders okay because he was getting close to his fourth ideal?

I could buy that, but I wanted to see if there were any other explanations.

We will see. I don't think it was breaking his oath, but his Highspren might be disappointed. Perception will matter a lot here. If Szeth believed that by doing this he was protecting Dalinar, it most likely wouldn't matter. However it seems it wasn't done for this reason, Szeth did it out of anger. He disobeyed Dalinar, but I don't think it would mean breaking oaths. He just went a step backwards. Szeth hasn't sworn the 4th Ideal yet, so he still has to follow Dalinar. RoW ch 113:

Quote

“I decide now,” Szeth said, reaching toward his waist—not for the terrible sword, but for the small knife he was wearing beside it. “I finally decide. Me. No one else compelling me. Taravangian, know that in killing you, I make it my choice.”

However this might count as something positive, a step towards his 4th Ideal. He made his own choice, trusting his own judgement, something that the 4th Ideal requires of him. RoW I-7:

Quote

“You do well, my acolyte,” the spren said, its tone formal. “You are vigilant and dedicated.”
“I am,” Szeth said.
“We need to discuss your crusade. You are a year into your current oath, and I am pleased and impressed with your dedication. You are among the most vigilant and worthy of men. I would have you earn your Plate. You still wish to cleanse your homeland?”
[...]
“You may need to fight and destroy those who have broken their own laws. Can you do this?”
“I … would need to ask Dalinar. He is my Ideal.”
“If you progress as a Skybreaker,” the highspren said, “you will need to become the law. To reach your ultimate potential, you must know the truth yourself, rather than relying on the crutch presented by the Third Ideal. Be aware of this.”

 

3 minutes ago, Quantus said:

He didnt kill Taravangian, though, and never hand any intent to do so. 

He did. Quote above plus:

Quote

Cold steel bit Taravangian’s skin as Szeth stabbed him right in the chest.
[...]
The sword drank greedily of the god’s essence, and as it did, Taravangian felt a snap. His body dying. Szeth finishing the job. He knew it immediately. Taravangian was dead. Anger rose in him like he had never known.
Szeth had killed him!

Not even Szeth knows Odium was there. RoW ch 114:

Quote

Beside him, the assassin had found a burned-out corpse, mostly eaten by the sword’s attack. That was Rayse, Taravangian’s predecessor, but Szeth wasn’t able to tell. The sword had consumed clothing and most of the flesh, leaving bits of stone-grey bone.
They think that’s me, Taravangian thought, reading the possible futures. Szeth didn’t see what happened to me spiritually. He doesn’t know Odium was here

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

@alder24 has the right of it again but I'll just add that, due to the fact that Szeth swore an Oath to follow a person, who are specifically subject to change and dynamic fluid interpretation, I would opine that his oaths are uniquely flexible whereas, for example, a skybreaker who swore to obey the laws of kharbranth specifically, would not have been able to kill the sovereign of said city-state under any circumstances without also killing his spren.

His spren is alive, so his oaths were not broken. He probably wasn't thinking about it, but he still acted within his defined code of honor and remains one of very few main characters who can really say that.

[Atlas333]

Not to answer my own question but I've been thinking about it the last couple days. I wonder if Szeth viewed killing Taravangian as protecting Dalinar? He was tasked to be Dalinar's bodyguard. 

Unfortunately, there's not a ton to go on to determine his motive. He had warned Dalinar that Taravangian was dangerous and his warning was disregarded. It's an interesting dilemma to give a skybreaker two conflicting orders (protect Dalinar and don't kill Taravangian). I hope we get more insight into this in stormlight 5. 

[Elite01]

Szeth did kill Taravangian, at least his physical body. Even if we want to try and split hairs he had the intention to kill him and would have if a shard had not also shown up at the same time. I know there have been some of these quotes already in this forum but I wanted to make a list of relevant passages in the same place to make it more clear.

Quote

"I decide now,” Szeth said, reaching toward his waist—not for the terrible sword, but for the small knife he was wearing beside it. “I finally decide. Me. No one else compelling me. Taravangian, know that in killing you, I make it my choice"

Later

"Cold steel bit Tarvangian's skin as szeth stabbed him right in the chest"

Later again

"...Taravangian felt a snap. His body dying. Szeth finishing the job. He knew it immediately. Taravangian was dead" 

Later one more time, after Taraganvian ascends

"Almost all possible futures agreed. Szeth would confess that he'd gone to kill Taravangian, but somehow Taravangian had drawn Nightblood-and the weapon had consumed him"

Clearly Szeth had the intent and at least stabbed Taravangian with a steel knife. 

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

On 8/13/2024 at 10:32 AM, Quantus said:

He didnt kill Taravangian, though, and never hand any intent to do so.  He struck down Rayse, and as long as his Highspren knew the difference he'll fine by the oaths (at least until Dalinar notices the discrepancy and forces the issue).  

Ha! That's an interesting bit of rules-lawyering, but I think that interpretation also technically works. When Szeth was targeted and overwhelmed by the other skybreakers during initiation, they all essentially cast him down as a cheater for simply washing the dust off that showed how many times he had been hit. Nale didn't let him off the hook until Szeth expressed awareness of the rule that he had "exploited," by the others' view, but he ultimately relented and judged that, if one has acted honorably, then sometimes being technically correct is all that the law requires. In the view you describe, Szeth may not have the level of awareness necessary to advocate for himself or his soul effectively (and he's done enough horrible things in life that he might be unlikely to make up a bs excuse if challenged, and just admit that he wanted to kill that evil man), but his spren probably would, and that...that should count since they're supposed to be a team and working together. Love it.

[+robardin he/him]

On 8/13/2024 at 10:32 AM, Quantus said:

He didnt kill Taravangian, though, and never hand any intent to do so.  He struck down Rayse, and as long as his Highspren knew the difference he'll fine by the oaths (at least until Dalinar notices the discrepancy and forces the issue).  

What?

He definitely inteded to kill Taravangian, and in fact did (see above from @alder24). And after having drawn an ordinary knife and not Nightblood, and had no idea Rayse was around; indeed, he would not even have recognized the name of the Vessel of Odium.

And in fact, he couldn't have done it even if HAD known and wanted to, not without drawing Nightblood in a place where Rayse's Vessel had put in a manifestation, which was only in that "pocket dimension" vision he pulled Taravangian into in order to blame him for Kaladin escaping his grasp at Urithiru.

The only person we've seen able to "self-insert" into one of those vision "pocket dimensions" without being pulled in by a Shard is Lift. And apparently Nightblood, by virtue of not being a "person" who needs inviting, but as a super-highly Invested object that just manifests "at all levels".

I concur that Szeth's taking personal decision on ending Taravangian for his crimes against humanity (and for having used Szeth as the tool to do so, all the while knowing he had been erroneously made Truthless) is not breaking an oath but actually moving past the "crutch" of the Skybreakers' Third Ideal and advancing towards the Fifth Ideal.

And what oath would he have been breaking, anyway? Kaladin lost his Stormlight-driven energy when he ran at Adolin in personal anger at having been Plate-punched by him on the sparring ground in WoR, which Syl explained with a simple question, "Who were you protecting?" Because that's why Windrunners exist.

Had Szeth attempted to kill for personal gain or even purely for personal vengeance, that might be breaking the nature of a Skybreaker. But in his monologue to Taravangian, he makes it clear that he is taking the judgment of death upon himself for what Taravagian had done to the world, not just to himself.

[Quantus he/him]

He didnt kill Taravangian, though, and never hand any intent to do so.  He struck down Rayse, and as long as his Highspren knew the difference he'll fine by the oaths (at least until Dalinar notices the discrepancy and forces the issue).  

EDIT: Wildly misremembering that scene, it seems. 

Edited August 19, 2024 by Quantus