Steel Speedster ♂ Posted August 7, 2024 Posted August 7, 2024 (edited) Intro In the original trilogy, atium and malatium are presented as being the external temporal metals. After the atium retcon, with it now being known that atium is an alloy of pure atium and electrum, and that these metals don't fit into the normal table of Allomancy (their original spots being taken by cadmium and bendalloy), it seems to be assumed that these metals are still external metals. This has laid the groundwork for theories about how atium alloys are categorized. It's been theorized that atium flips the internal/external position of a metal. For example, electrum an internal metal that shows future shadows of yourself, when alloyed with atium, shows shadows of other people and becomes an external metal. I am going to argue here that that is incorrect: atium and malatium are actually internal metals, just like electrum and gold, their base metal counterparts. As a disclaimer, there are many WoBs on the topic that I am addressing, and many do directly contradict some of my claims. However, this whole topic, regarding the atium retcon, how atium alloys work, etc. has become very confusing, and I'm not certain that all the WoBs we have will prove to be entirely accurate. Therefore, I ask that you bear with me, and admit that I could very well be wrong about all this. What makes a metal Internal vs. External? We'll start by figuring out what criteria determines if a metal is internal or external. First, we'll look at the four pairs of external metals: iron/steel, zinc/brass, chromium/nicrosil, and cadmium/bendalloy. Iron and steel directly and tangibly affect something outside of the user--they apply force to physical objects. Zinc and brass directly affect another person's mind. Chromium and nicrosil affect another person's metal reserves. Cadmium and Bendalloy directly affect time around the user. We see that all of these powers have direct and obvious effects on things external to the user. Do atium and malatium? Nope. Both create something that only the user can see, that has no difect effect on others. Looking at the internal metals we see: Pewter and tin affect the user's body, changing it in some way. Copper and bronze affect the user's mind, changing it to block other mental powers, and detect kinetic investiture, respectively. Aluminum and duralumin affect the user's own metal reserves. Gold and electrum show visions that only the user can see. The effects of atium and malatium fit in much better with these powers than with the external powers. The fact that they show other people instead of the user, like gold and electrum do does not make them external. It's easy to see how they could appear that way when looked at next to their base metal counterparts, butt when compared to all the other metals, they act much more like internal metals. External metals all have an obvious effect on some external thing. Internal powers either affect the user's body (pewter, aluminum, duralumin) or allow the user to perceive something new (tin, bronze, gold, electrum.) Even copper, an internal metal, has more external effects than atium or malatium, as it blocks bronze in a large area external to the user. Atium Alloys If this is true, that atium and malatium are internal metals, then it means a change in our understanding of how atium alloys relate to base metals. It has been assumed that alloying a metal with atium inverts the effect, making internal metals external and (presumably) external metals internal. However, I believe that atium alloys fit in the same slot on the table as their base metal. Atium is an internal temporal pushing metal, just like electrum, and malatium is an internal temporal pulling metal, like gold. Atium acts as a modifier on the base metal. It changes the effect slightly, but not to the point of changing the categorization of the metal. I will bring up this WoB that states that atium alloys are all temporal or mental: Quote Maru Nui What would an atium-electrum alloy do in Allomancy? Brandon Sanderson The alloys of atium have various temporal effects. Footnote: The Allomancy chart poster reveals that atium alloys have various temporal and mental effects. Tor.com Q&A with Brandon Sanderson (Jan. 10, 2011) If this is true, then my theory is not entirely correct, although I would guess that the mental and temporal quadrants would at least follow the pattern I have proposed. However, this WoB is quite old, and possibly outdated. Simply by the question being asked, we can see that this was pre-atium retcon. Anyway, I digress. Conclusion So, to sum up, malatium is actually the internal pulling temporal atium alloy, while atium(-electrum) is the internal pushing temporal atium alloy. They are not external metals, as they have been presented. The fact that compared to electrum and gold their effects seem external has made it easy to overlook this, but compared to other external metals they do not affect external things nearly as much. Edited August 8, 2024 by Speeding Steelrunner 3
Treamayne Posted August 7, 2024 Posted August 7, 2024 Interesting theory. Sound reasoning (but I have never been a fan of the internal/external flipping theory because basing anything on a single use-case seems, to me, to be an unsound foundation). 1 hour ago, Speeding Steelrunner said: The fact that they show other people instead of the user, like gold and electrum do does not make them internal. External? 1 hour ago, Speeding Steelrunner said: Simply by the question being asked, we can see that this was pre-atium retcon. The question was 2011 - the retcon is older than 2009 (from before HoA was even published) and is only really a RetCon because while Sanderson wrote all three books (first draft) before publishing TFE, he found the problem while editing WoA and HoA - but after TFE was published. WoP: Spoiler Quote /u/AAKS_ My understanding is that Brandon thinks it is a plothole that lerasium can be burned by Scadrian (regardless of if they are Mistings/Mistborn) but atium can't. His solution is to retcon the Pits to naturally produce an atium/electrum alloy, presumably by the design of Preservation. Therefore we don't know what pure atium looks like or does when used in any magic. Peter Ahlstrom We do know what it does. It’s on the Allomancy poster, and the effect appeared one time at the end of Hero of Ages. LewsTherinTelescope Interesting. Do you know if he had already conceived the retcon by the time the poster was written, or if that line about pure atium just turned out to fit really well retroactively? Peter Ahlstrom The retcon is way older than a lot of people assume. LewsTherinTelescope Does this mean he had it in mind by the time Hero of Ages released (since the first public version of the poster dates to 2008), or just that it's old but not sure exactly how old? Peter Ahlstrom Remember that what's in the books is filtered through the understanding of the characters. So even if Brandon planned it from the beginning, if the characters didn't know about it, it's not going to come out in the book. And see this thread reply from 2009. Footnote: The link is to a post on the Timewaster's Guide forums, where Peter responds to someone asking about whether atium is an alloy by saying he now knows enough to confirm or deny the theory, but is not allowed to. General Reddit 2022 (Dec. 4, 2022) So, Peter confirmed it when going to work with Brandon in 2009 and it had been established by Brandon before that point. However he was not allowed to discuss it until after HoA was published. . . 1
Steel Speedster ♂ Posted August 8, 2024 Author Posted August 8, 2024 21 hours ago, Treamayne said: External? Ah, yes. Thanks for catching that! 21 hours ago, Treamayne said: The question was 2011 - the retcon is older than 2009 (from before HoA was even published) and is only really a RetCon because while Sanderson wrote all three books (first draft) before publishing TFE, he found the problem while editing WoA and HoA - but after TFE was published. Hmmm. Well, it was before the retcon was revealed at any rate, although I know that doesn't mean much. The fact that the WoB only mentions temporal effects, while the poster says temporal and mental effects does suggest that something might have changed since then, but there still isn't any evidence that he plans to have any atium alloys with physical or enhancement effects. To me, that's the way that makes the most sense to do it, but he is the author, so I'll trust whatever way he decides to do it! 1
Treamayne Posted August 8, 2024 Posted August 8, 2024 (edited) 1 hour ago, Speeding Steelrunner said: while the poster says temporal and mental effects The Mental effects were discussed in the books (especially Vin and Ham's talk about beating an Atium wielder without having Atium yourself in WoA) and clarified in the poster. Just as the effect of Pure Atium (as per the poster) was compared to Elend's a-ha moment at the end of HoA when he burned a large reserve of E1Atium with Duralumin. (Same WoB as above - edited): Spoiler /u/AAKS_ My understanding is that Brandon thinks it is a plothole that lerasium can be burned by Scadrian (regardless of if they are Mistings/Mistborn) but atium can't. His solution is to retcon the Pits to naturally produce an atium/electrum alloy, presumably by the design of Preservation. Therefore we don't know what pure atium looks like or does when used in any magic. Peter Ahlstrom We do know what it does. It’s on the Allomancy poster, and the effect appeared one time at the end of Hero of Ages. <snip> General Reddit 2022 (Dec. 4, 2022) So, while the poster says "temporal and mental effects," it is unlikely to mean "Temporal effects" and "mental effects" and more likely means "Temporal effects with enough mental augmentation to use the new information." WoA Ch 22: Spoiler He rubbed his chin. “Most people agree that the best way to kill a Mistborn with atium is to surprise them.” “That doesn’t help if they attack me first,” Vin said. “Well,” Ham said. “Barring surprise, there isn’t much. Some people think that you might be able to kill an atium-using Mistborn if you catch them in an unavoidable situation. It’s like a game of fets—sometimes, the only way to take a piece is to corner it so that no matter which way it moves, it dies. “Doing that to a Mistborn is pretty tough, though. The thing is, atium lets the Mistborn see the future—so he knows when a move will trap him, and so he can avoid the situation. The metal is supposed to enhance his mind somehow, too.” “It does. When I’m burning atium, I often dodge before I even register the attacks that are coming.” Ham nodded. Hope that helps Edited August 8, 2024 by Treamayne SPAG
Steel Speedster ♂ Posted August 8, 2024 Author Posted August 8, 2024 4 minutes ago, Treamayne said: The Mental effects were discussed in the books (especially Vin and Ham's talk about beating an Atium wielder without having Atium yourself in WoA) and clarified in the poster. Just as the effect of Pure Atium (as per the poster) was compared to Elend's a-ha moment at the end of HoA when he burned a large reserve of E1Atium with Duralumin. (Same WoB as above - edited): Reveal hidden contents /u/AAKS_ My understanding is that Brandon thinks it is a plothole that lerasium can be burned by Scadrian (regardless of if they are Mistings/Mistborn) but atium can't. His solution is to retcon the Pits to naturally produce an atium/electrum alloy, presumably by the design of Preservation. Therefore we don't know what pure atium looks like or does when used in any magic. Peter Ahlstrom We do know what it does. It’s on the Allomancy poster, and the effect appeared one time at the end of Hero of Ages. <snip> General Reddit 2022 (Dec. 4, 2022) So, while the poster says "temporal and mental effects," it is unlikely to mean "Temporal effects" and "mental effects" and more likely means "Temporal effects with enough mental augmentation to use the knew information." WoA Ch 22: Reveal hidden contents He rubbed his chin. “Most people agree that the best way to kill a Mistborn with atium is to surprise them.” “That doesn’t help if they attack me first,” Vin said. “Well,” Ham said. “Barring surprise, there isn’t much. Some people think that you might be able to kill an atium-using Mistborn if you catch them in an unavoidable situation. It’s like a game of fets—sometimes, the only way to take a piece is to corner it so that no matter which way it moves, it dies. “Doing that to a Mistborn is pretty tough, though. The thing is, atium lets the Mistborn see the future—so he knows when a move will trap him, and so he can avoid the situation. The metal is supposed to enhance his mind somehow, too.” “It does. When I’m burning atium, I often dodge before I even register the attacks that are coming.” Ham nodded. Hope that helps Ohhh... yeah, I guess that probably makes more sense.
alder24 Posted August 8, 2024 Posted August 8, 2024 The categorisation of Atium and Malatium as external metals comes from HoA Ars Arcanum metal chart (not the poster), which is an in-world construct, created by people who have not yet understood the true nature of Atium and just tried to fit it somewhere on the table. Yes, they don't belong on this table and I do agree with your conclusion - they are replacements for gold and electrum. Spoiler [...] Brandon Sanderson [...] Remember that the tables—and the ars Arcanum—are 'in world' creations. (Or, at least, in-universe.) The knowledge represented in them is as people understand it, and can always have flaws. That was the case with having atium on the table in the first place, and that was the case with people (specifically the Inquisitors) trying to figure out what atium did Hemalurgically. [...] Barnes and Noble Book Club Q&A (July 8, 2009) Spoiler [...] Brandon Sanderson That's a RAFO, I'm afraid. Suffice it to say that what the characters think they understand about the metals, they don't QUITE get right. If you study the interaction between the temporal metals, you might notice an inconsistency in the way they work... Peter Ahlstrom Uh-huh. That was already noticed by theorizers in the forums here. Gold works like malatium and electrum works like atium. Yet they're on opposite corners of the metal square. Brandon Sanderson Ah. I wondered if that had been noticed. Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008) Spoiler Czanos Are Atium and the External Temporal Pulling metal really the same? Brandon Sanderson You are on to something. Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008) 2
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