Trusk'our he/him Posted August 4, 2024 Posted August 4, 2024 (edited) A person can only bond one Unsealed Metalmind as of right now. It's a pretty fair limitation. However, we know that the mechanics of bonding a medallion and of bonding an Honorblade are similar, and by extention somewhat similar to bonding a Spren; Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/331-orem-signing/#e9408 Questioner Do Honorblades bestow their abilities similar to an Identity-free nicrosilmind with other Metalborn abilities? Brandon Sanderson Yeah, these are working on similar principles. Same principle, divergent applications by the magic system, but yeah, I would say, they come back to the same principles. It also seems to me that an Honorblade bond doesn't run as deeply as a Radiant bond, hence the reason they're easier to transfer, but grant less power and can't heal as well; Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/176-oathbringer-chicago-signing/#e8499 Questioner So Honorblades: Can they actually be bound? ...Can you bind to an Honorblade or not? Brandon Sanderson Yeees you can, but it's not exactly the same thing. Questioner It's not exactly the same thing as a regular Shardblade? Brandon Sanderson Yeah... In some ways they're more powerful in some ways they're a prototype, if that makes sense. Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/116-general-reddit-2017/#e4788 Brandon Sanderson A full-blown Radiant can heal almost anything (cut from a Shardblade included) because of the way the magic works--their soul is literally bonded to Investiture, and it suffuses them in such a way that even the soul is very resilient to damage. Honorblades are what you'd consider a "prototype" for what eventually happened with Shardblades. An Honorblade can be used by anyone, without need for oaths, which makes them very dangerous--but since the bond isn't as deep, they are far less efficient. They use more Stormlight, for example, and can't heal to the extent that a Radiant can. So the difference is not in the device that did the damage, but in the method using to heal. Over the course of the first two book, the reader should be able to subtly pick out differences from what Szeth says is possible (in more than just healing) and what Kaladin experiences. (I also think that the reason picking up an Honorblade with the same power set as your Radiant Order empowers you a little is because you're essentially adding to that Connection and/or Investiture as an Allomancer with a Hemalurgic spike containing the same power would) In any case, since a Connector Ferring can more easily become a Squire to multiple Radiant Orders by tapping Connection, I think it may be possible for a Connector Ferring to store and strengthen their Connection to Unsealed Metalminds to bond multiple at once, or possibly make the bond deeper, less like an Honorblade and more like a Spren bond. Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/394-dragoncon-2019/#e12917 Questioner I know Hemalurgy [has to go to mix and match powers], would it be possible to use Feruchemy for Connection to hack into multiple Knights Radiant, kind of act as a Squire to more than one at the same time. Brandon Sanderson Great question! I think you could make this work. I think it would take a little bit of legwork, but I think what you're wanting to do could indeed work. More likely in that case though, you could probably be a Squire to multiple Orders. *Hesitantly* Yeah...I think that would work, but I don't think it's the easiest way to do what you want to do. I think there are easier ways. It also may be possible that a Trueself Ferring could bond multiple medallions, as they can make themselves more susceptible to many things in the Cosmere; Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100-rbooks-ama-2015/#e3547 sebarial Would a Feruchemist actively storing Identity be more susceptible to Forgery? Would more outlandish changes be able to take effect? Thanks for your time, and have a wonderful day. Brandon Sanderson Yes, if you store Identity, it makes you susceptible to ALL KINDS of things in the Cosmere. Forgery would be on the short list. <snip> Edited August 4, 2024 by Trusk'our 3
One who Breaths and Reads she/her Posted August 5, 2024 Posted August 5, 2024 So good ideas but a couple of misconceptions about certain mechanics. So you can't "Bond" to metalminds like you can Blades, but instead you draw upon the stored investiture within them, which is then used. This is due to how an Unsealed metalmind works, while a regular metalmind would have the Identity of the person who stored the attribute in it AND they would naturally be able to store and use the Metalmind through Feruchemy, which most people aren't able too. The core reason why anyone is able to use a Medallion is due to how both the Identity of the person storing the ability to use the form of Feruchemy that's in the medallion is manipulated, and the fact that the same person can store that ability. Which through Feruchemy makes it so anyone can use the abilities stored, even being able to store the attributes themselves. The Metalmind in no way ever bonds with a person, they Connect with it definitely, but not something similar too, or as strong as a Bond. Also so far we don't know if you can actually only use one Unsealed Metalmind(I mean a whole medallion) at a time, even within the books its implied and seen that you can but its never really pointed out. But again i might be wrong. Although with each medallion I imagine it would be hard. 13 hours ago, Trusk'our said: It also seems to me that an Honorblade bond doesn't run as deeply as a Radiant bond, hence the reason they're easier to transfer, but grant less power and can't heal as well; Sadly this is both true and false, which I understand because Brandon states it strangely, while the Blade is absolutely weaker in healing and less Investiture efficient, its overall power can be incredible in the hands of someone who can use it well. A great example of this would be Ishar using his blade to try and take the Stormfathers bond in book four. We just haven't seen many people use the shardblades for more than basic techniques, due to limitations in stormlight access. Again, overall great idea, just some basic information thats led you astray.
Trusk'our he/him Posted August 5, 2024 Author Posted August 5, 2024 I don't think I've seen you around before. Welcome to the Shard @One who Breaths and Reads! 1 hour ago, One who Breaths and Reads said: So you can't "Bond" to metalminds like you can Blades, but instead you draw upon the stored investiture within them, which is then used. This is due to how an Unsealed metalmind works, while a regular metalmind would have the Identity of the person who stored the attribute in it AND they would naturally be able to store and use the Metalmind through Feruchemy, which most people aren't able too. The core reason why anyone is able to use a Medallion is due to how both the Identity of the person storing the ability to use the form of Feruchemy that's in the medallion is manipulated, and the fact that the same person can store that ability. Which through Feruchemy makes it so anyone can use the abilities stored, even being able to store the attributes themselves. The Metalmind in no way ever bonds with a person, they Connect with it definitely, but not something similar too, or as strong as a Bond. Also so far we don't know if you can actually only use one Unsealed Metalmind(I mean a whole medallion) at a time, even within the books its implied and seen that you can but its never really pointed out. But again i might be wrong. Although with each medallion I imagine it would be hard. The weird thing about the medallions made by the Southern Scadrians is that they aren't like regular Metalminds; do don't seem to use up the nicrosil portion of the Metalmind, which functions under the same principles that bonding an Honorblade does. (I also have a thread here that delves more deeply into Unsealed Metalmind mechanics and possibilities for their creation.) Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/331-orem-signing/#e9408 Questioner Do Honorblades bestow their abilities similar to an Identity-free nicrosilmind with other Metalborn abilities? Brandon Sanderson Yeah, these are working on similar principles. Same principle, divergent applications by the magic system, but yeah, I would say, they come back to the same principles. Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/316-general-signed-books-2018/#e11247 Pagerunner When you tap the nicrosil portion of a medallion, will it run out over time? Or is it like a coppermind, where something discrete is taken, used, and returned? Brandon Sanderson Good question! Like a coppermind. The Bands of Mourning were a bit strange though, in that their Nicrosilmind stores did deplete when Wax used them. I suspect that this either is because they were ancient compared to modern Unsealed Metalminds, a prototype of sorts, or there were depletable Nicrosilminds combined with more modern-esk bonding components to temporarily augment the weilder's power. 1 hour ago, One who Breaths and Reads said: Sadly this is both true and false, which I understand because Brandon states it strangely, while the Blade is absolutely weaker in healing and less Investiture efficient, its overall power can be incredible in the hands of someone who can use it well. A great example of this would be Ishar using his blade to try and take the Stormfathers bond in book four. We just haven't seen many people use the shardblades for more than basic techniques, due to limitations in stormlight access. An Honorblade does have some extra potential over Radiant bonds, but that is mostly due to the fact that they don't require oaths to bestow Surgebinding, and in most standard situations they're inferior. Aside from something like allowing Szeth or Moash to murder without fear of losing their power, I currently see little evidence for more ability on their part. Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/116-general-reddit-2017/#e4788 Brandon Sanderson A full-blown Radiant can heal almost anything (cut from a Shardblade included) because of the way the magic works--their soul is literally bonded to Investiture, and it suffuses them in such a way that even the soul is very resilient to damage. Honorblades are what you'd consider a "prototype" for what eventually happened with Shardblades. An Honorblade can be used by anyone, without need for oaths, which makes them very dangerous--but since the bond isn't as deep, they are far less efficient. They use more Stormlight, for example, and can't heal to the extent that a Radiant can. So the difference is not in the device that did the damage, but in the method using to heal. Over the course of the first two book, the reader should be able to subtly pick out differences from what Szeth says is possible (in more than just healing) and what Kaladin experiences. Ishar's attempted hijacking of Dalinar's bond to the Stormfather is likely because Honor is no longer around to keep things in check, and Dalinar has been mentioned multiple times in RoW by the Stormfather to also be unchained due to Honor's death. 1
alder24 Posted August 5, 2024 Posted August 5, 2024 11 hours ago, One who Breaths and Reads said: So good ideas but a couple of misconceptions about certain mechanics. So you can't "Bond" to metalminds like you can Blades, but instead you draw upon the stored investiture within them, which is then used. This is due to how an Unsealed metalmind works, while a regular metalmind would have the Identity of the person who stored the attribute in it AND they would naturally be able to store and use the Metalmind through Feruchemy, which most people aren't able too. The core reason why anyone is able to use a Medallion is due to how both the Identity of the person storing the ability to use the form of Feruchemy that's in the medallion is manipulated, and the fact that the same person can store that ability. Which through Feruchemy makes it so anyone can use the abilities stored, even being able to store the attributes themselves. The Metalmind in no way ever bonds with a person, they Connect with it definitely, but not something similar too, or as strong as a Bond. Also so far we don't know if you can actually only use one Unsealed Metalmind(I mean a whole medallion) at a time, even within the books its implied and seen that you can but its never really pointed out. But again i might be wrong. Although with each medallion I imagine it would be hard. Unsealed metalminds are unkeyed (have blanked identity), but at the same time have a little bit of identity of their own. They are little machines that give you powers instead. A person who's not a Feruchemist can't tap unkeyed metalmind. There needs to be something more done to it, for a non-Feruchemist to access them. A Malwish medallion works just like a Honorblade works - and Honorblade works by bonding a person who carries it. With all WoBs we have on this matter, we strongly suspect that a Medallion is partially self-aware (just like a Honorblade) and it bonds with a person who carries it, giving them Feruchemical powers through that bond, which allows them to tap unkeyed metalminds. Spoiler Raddatatta In Era 1, Sazed says the only thing you can Feruchemically store while sleeping is wakefulness, but in Era 2 they have the sky ships that require everyone to be storing weight to fly and they don't land while people sleep. Was Sazed just wrong, or is that a difference between normal Feruchemy and using the unsealed metalminds? Brandon Sanderson Unsealed metalminds, I am moving toward complete—you probably already guessed this—mechanical uses of Investiture, and this indeed is a step toward that. And so we are stepping toward having a little machine that gives you powers. That's what the world wants to try to find. And this is—this being mechanical—we'll just say that the medallions and the things that they're building have more of a life-force, more of an Identity of their own than a traditional metalmind does, even though they're unkeyed and all of this stuff. YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022) Spoiler Brandon Sanderson So one of the things people have been asking about a lot the nature of Identity and its uses for accessing other people's metalminds, and things like this right. And I hedged a little bit when somebody asked me... *inaudible*...send people into spirals of confusion, so I'm gonna clarify it for now. So, someone comes in and says, we need a blank metalmind, anybody can use that. I'm like, yes but, the reason that it's a hedge is that you need to actually be a feruchemist to access it, right, you can't just hold the blank metalmind not being a feruchemist, even though it's somebody else's investiture that's been blanked, right. So people keep kind of missing this thing. I'm hedging in the sort of, you don't quite have it, I've kind of dodged it, but I worry that it's just going to be confusing. So the issue is, you need two things from one of these. You need something that makes you a feruchemist, and then you need a metalmind that somebody else has filled with blank investiture, ok. Now if you can get pure investiture, that can be used by anybody, regardless, ok, you need it in pure form though. But, so there are some other tricks with this as well that don't make it...so anyway, you've got a couple of things that can go on. So you've got a blank metalmind, right, with nothing. You need either investiture, to be able...like you need to be the right type. There are ways to access that if you are completely blank also, if you were a blank slate, but that is still...kind of hard. It's even harder if you are blank, and the metalmind is not blank, but that's not what they're doing in Mistborn right now. You are tapping investiture, gaining the ability of feruchemy and then you are drawing out a blank metalmind, ok. That's the one you need to be...and everything else I'm hedging on intentionally, and I'm worried I hedged in a way that made it sound confusing, ok. So you know now what they're doing. You know that there are other things possible. But I don't want you to think that you have the explanations for how all those things happen, ok. Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing (Dec. 1, 2016) Spoiler Fluffy (paraphrased) When the Five Scholars traveled to Roshar, this happened post Recreance, so most Shardblades would have been dead, how did Nightblood gain sapience? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Shardblades weren’t the only Blades around that were active, there were Honorblades. Honorblades are self-aware, but do not manifest a spren in the Cognitive Realm. Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 15, 2022) 11 hours ago, One who Breaths and Reads said: Sadly this is both true and false, which I understand because Brandon states it strangely, while the Blade is absolutely weaker in healing and less Investiture efficient, its overall power can be incredible in the hands of someone who can use it well. A great example of this would be Ishar using his blade to try and take the Stormfathers bond in book four. We just haven't seen many people use the shardblades for more than basic techniques, due to limitations in stormlight access. It's more than just limitations in Stormlight access, though that's still important, an Honorblade doesn't bound its user with Ideals. Anyone who uses it is Unbound. Ideals bound Radiants to use their powers in accordance to their Oaths and their spren can even take away their powers if they aren't used this way. Syl did it to Kaladin in WoR ch 18: Quote “What happened?” Kaladin asked. “The Stormlight drained from me. I felt it go.” “Who were you protecting?” Syl asked. “I . . . I was practicing how to fight, like when I practiced with Skar and Rock down in the chasms.” “Is that really what you were doing?” Syl asked. In Herald's hands, Honorblades are capable of more OB ch 16: Quote What will you do with it? the Stormfather asked as Dalinar entered the empty corridors. It is a weapon beyond parallel. The gift of a god. With it, you would be a Windrunner unoathed. And more. More that men do not understand, and cannot. Like a Herald, nearly. Spoiler 18th_Shard Does a Herald using an Honorblade consume the same "dangerous" amounts of Stormlight? Brandon Sanderson Honorblades are less efficient; this doesn't change when a Herald uses them. (But they have other advantages.) uchoo786 Are Honorblades closer in power to Nightblood than they are to Shardblades made from Spren? Brandon Sanderson Hard to say. They're all similar, but at the same time, very different. And in a way, Nightblood is what you might call a "Third Generation" blade. uchoo786 Ah gotcha. And in this analogy, Honorblades would be 1st gen and Sprenblades would be 2nd gen? Brandon Sanderson Yes. /r/books AMA 2015 (Aug. 4, 2015) 9 hours ago, Trusk'our said: The Bands of Mourning were a bit strange though, in that their Nicrosilmind stores did deplete when Wax used them. I suspect that this either is because they were ancient compared to modern Unsealed Metalminds, a prototype of sorts, or there were depletable Nicrosilminds combined with more modern-esk bonding components to temporarily augment the weilder's power. I believe it's not the Feruchemical powers were being drained (they still worked like a Coppermind), it's Allomantic powers that were used up, as they were attributes stored in an unkeyed nicrosilmind. Those weren't given by the bond, they were being tapped. As for your theory, I agree. I think a Connector Ferring will be able to use multiple medallions, but I'm not sure if an aluminum Ferring would be able to do this as well. I don't think blanking your Identity will solve the problem of medallions' connections interfering with each other.
Trusk'our he/him Posted August 5, 2024 Author Posted August 5, 2024 (edited) 4 hours ago, alder24 said: I believe it's not the Feruchemical powers were being drained (they still worked like a Coppermind), it's Allomantic powers that were used up, as they were attributes stored in an unkeyed nicrosilmind. Those weren't given by the bond, they were being tapped. The more I think about it, the more I think that the Bands must have used the same bonding mechanism as the medallions; if a Nicrosilmind has a blanked Identity, you still shouldn't be able to tap it without having a bridge between your soul and the Investiture, which traditionally requires the practitioner to be a Soulbearer. Or, in the case of Unsealed Metalminds, have the Metalmind reach out to the practitioner through bonding. Essentially, my current thought is that an Identity-free Nicrosilmind is probably just an Unkeyed Metalmind, not an Unsealed Metalmind. The Bands may have granted the ability to tap their own base Investiture though, the part you bond, which would explain why Wax was able to reduce its Nicrosilminds and it could help explain how the Bands were eventually tapped clean in TLM (though those could be fakes or something else may have depleted them). Edited August 5, 2024 by Trusk'our
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