Taravangian`s bargain or the loophole in the contract

Diomedes · July 20, 2024

tldr: My theory proposes Taravangian is going to outmanouver Dalinar politically by making the majority of the Alethi army defect from him, therby undermining the contract. Finally, he is going to blackmail Dalinar by threatening mass violence against the Singers into forfeiting the duel.

The contract: “If I win that contest, you will remain bound to the system—but you will return Alethkar and Herdaz to me, with all of their occupants intact. You will vow to cease hostilities and maintain the peace, not working against my allies or our kingdoms in any way.”

The way I see it the loophole in the contract is how it binds the actions between Odium and his allies and Dalinar and his allies. Neutral parties, however, are not mentioned and can do whatever they want. Therefore, if Taravangian managed to make a large chunk of the Alethi Highprinces and their subjects to be neutral at the time of the duel, they are not bound by the contract.

1. Taravangian`s bargain

So how would he do it? By offering the Alethi to return them to their homeland and to reinstating the princes in their princedoms. In return they would have to break their allegiance to Dalinar and Queen Jasnah and become neutral. If a majority of the Alethi highprinces take the deal that means most of Alethkar is neutral and cannot be given away by Taravangian in case he loses the duel, because it is not his to give away in the first place. This way Taravangian can make sure he cannot lose. The neutrality needs to be genuine however. If it was not, the loophole in the contract would not apply.

The entire social order would be reverted to the state it was before the Desolation happened. This includes reinslaving the Singers in Alethkar. But remember: Taravangian`s goal is the salvation of mankind, as was his request of the Nightwatcher. He does not actually care for the Singers.

There are a ton of issues lying in between Dalinar and the Alethi.

Nr. 1 Queen Jasnah is a heretic who wants to abolish slavery. Hardly something that makes her endearing to the Alethi as a whole.

Nr. 2 Dalinar married his brothers sister Navani, which is basically incest in Vorinism. He also is a heretic who claims “God is dead”. Therefore the entire Vorin church works vehemently against him as was a plot point in OB.

Nr. 3 The political situation was at the brink of civil war between Sadeas and Dalinars faction to begin with in WoK and WoR. Sadeas soldiers defected to Rayse in OB. Dalinar quashed their dissent, by making them dependent on him in Urithiru. If Dalinar cannot apply that pressure anymore, his alliance falls apart. Dalinar appointed highprinces loyal to him, who would face insurrections from within their ranks, if the bargain is made public.

Nr. 4 Kaladin Stormblessed is not in Urithiru to rally the people behind Dalinar.

Nr. 5 Jah Keved a Vorin kingdom already went over to Odium, why not a lot of the Alethi highprinces as well?

Nr. 6 The Knights Radiant are traitors according to Vorin tradition

Nr. 7 Taravangian is a masterful politician, Dalinar is not.

Nr. 8 Sadeas murder. This secret has to come out at some time and is going to make Dalinar seem like a fraud who only talks about Honor when it suits him.

I also do think Adolin is going to take the deal as Highprince of House Kholin, becoming not like Dalinar not like Taravangian but "his own kind of wrong", as he said in RoW. He has a very strained relationship with Dalinar and also loves his homeland and his people, an endearing trait, which is working in Odiums`s favour in this case. We had Shallan flirting with the Ghostbloods in RoW, Dalinar almost becoming Odiums champion in OB, and Kaladin siding with Moash for a while in WoR. As symmetries are a big deal in SA, I think it is now Adolin`s turn to have such kind of an arc in the next book. He is probably going to confess to murdering Sadeas himself in order to undermine Dalinar.

2. Blackmaling Dalinar

As the traitorous Alethi army will march down from the Oathgate in Kholinar they would subdue the Singer forces pretty easily. They are the best fighting force in all of Roshar and have shardbearers, the Singers don’t. Without the Fused, who are dependent on Odium to be reborn, they can hardly resist the homecoming Alethi. As they reunite with their countrymen who lived under Singer occupation these past years, they would turn to mass violence against the Singers to avenge their past indignations and to make sure they would never rise again. Taravangian would do his best to highten these urges of vengeance. We are probably talking of a large scale planned genocide against the Singers in Alethkar. Kind of like Dalinar did at Rathalas. Their has been quite some talk about that in the books, as I argued here. https://www.17thshard.com/forums/topic/92324-parshmen-singer-genocide-in-row/

As the duel approaches, Dalinar realizes he has already lost most of Alethkar, he needs to fight to avert his soul into falling to Odiums hands. Then Taravangian blackmails Dalinar: He can save the Singers in Alethkar from destruction, if he forfeits the duels. And so he does, but breaks his oaths and deadeyes the Stormfather, in order that all the power Dalinar possesses does not fall to Taravangian`s hand. The consequence is that Roshar is deprived of Stromlight. The Stormfather-deadeye part was argued multiple times elsewhere. Here for instance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kzwV0WYfTM

This is the meaning of the death rattle: so the “night will rain, for the choice of Honor is Life”. Because Dalinar saves the Singers life, by deadeying the Stormfather.

r0cketm00se · July 21, 2024

Reading this made me realize that Dalinar specifies returning Alethkar and Herdaz "to me" even though he has never been the recognized ruler of either and is currently a monarch of Urithiru only. The wording shows him thinking of himself as an emperor, and I think you're right that if a kingdom was no longer allied to Dalinar, things could get interesting. It would very much be in keeping with Dalinar struggling to give up control when he thinks he knows what's best.

alder24 · July 21, 2024

16 hours ago, Diomedes said:

tldr: My theory proposes Taravangian is going to outmanouver Dalinar politically by making the majority of the Alethi army defect from him, therby undermining the contract. Finally, he is going to blackmail Dalinar by threatening mass violence against the Singers into forfeiting the duel.

The contract: “If I win that contest, you will remain bound to the system—but you will return Alethkar and Herdaz to me, with all of their occupants intact. You will vow to cease hostilities and maintain the peace, not working against my allies or our kingdoms in any way.”

The way I see it the loophole in the contract is how it binds the actions between Odium and his allies and Dalinar and his allies. Neutral parties, however, are not mentioned and can do whatever they want. Therefore, if Taravangian managed to make a large chunk of the Alethi Highprinces and their subjects to be neutral at the time of the duel, they are not bound by the contract.

I don't see this happening at all. First of all, Dalinar is not the king of Alethkar, he's the king of Urithiru. Jasnah is the current ruler of Alethkar and as of the end of RoW, she got rid of all political opposition among Highprinces, with Sadeas, Thanadal and Vamah being dealt with at the beginning of the RoW and Ruthar being the last defeated by Jasnah herself - Kholin's position is now unquestionable and Highprinces are loyal to them. Secondly they all still greatly respect and follow Dalinar out of that respect. This was shown to us as early as in WoR, when even Aladar, the biggest "ally" of Sadeas, joined Dalinar on his assault to the center of the Shattered Plains. Right now, after all what's happened in OB and RoW, Dalinar's position is cemented firmly among Alethi lighteyes. If even Dalinar's excommunication and the truth about Rathalas and Evi didn't break their loyalty, there is literally nothing that will do this. I see no way for Taravangian to turn Dalinar's most loyal ally - Alethi Highprinces - against him, especially after Navani reclaimed Urithiru and Dalinar’s successful offensive in Emul. 10 days to sow discord among the most loyal part of Dalinar's coalition is far too little, even for a masterful politician such as Taravangian.

Another problem is even if somehow all Alethi Highprices were to defect and declare neutrality (that means they can't ally Odium or work with Odium in any way, otherwise they would be considered of Odium and would be given back to Dalinar if he were to win the duel), the contract is still binding to both parties. There are other allies on Dalinar's side, there are other nations bound by those terms. Taravangian isn't interested in Alethkar, he's interested in getting rid of the contract entirely - getting freed of Honor's bindings. Taravangian wants to become a player on the wider Cosmere political stage and being bound to Roshar isn't good at all. He needs to be free, even if he won't leave the system (because it's hard, Odium is too invested in Roshar to leave with no troubles). That's the main goal of Taravangian "to free them all." Alethkar holds no value in the long term. He loses as long as he remains bound by Honor and the terms of the Contest puts him always at loss. RoW ch 114:

Quote

Such power. Such incredible power. Taravangian peered into infinity. He’d wanted to save his city, and had succeeded. After that, he’d wanted to save Roshar. He could do that now. He could end this war. Storms, Dalinar and Odium’s contract—which bound Taravangian just as soundly—would do that already.
But … beyond that, what of the entire cosmere? He couldn’t see that far yet. Perhaps he would eventually be able to. But he did know his predecessor’s plans, and had access to some of his knowledge. So Taravangian knew the cosmere was in chaos. Ruled by fools. Presided over by broken gods.
There was so much to do. He sorted through Odium’s previous plans and saw all their flaws. How had he let himself be maneuvered into this particular deal with Dalinar? How had he let himself rely so much upon a contest of champions? Didn’t he know? The way to win was to make sure that, no matter the outcome, you were satisfied. Odium should never have entered a deal he could not absolutely control.
It can still be done, Taravangian realized, seeing the possibilities—so subtle—that his predecessor had missed. Yes … Dalinar has set himself up … to fail. I can beat him.
[...]
And now, Taravangian was going to save them all.

16 hours ago, Diomedes said:

The entire social order would be reverted to the state it was before the Desolation happened. This includes reinslaving the Singers in Alethkar. But remember: Taravangian`s goal is the salvation of mankind, as was his request of the Nightwatcher. He does not actually care for the Singers.

Then both Fused and Singers would rebel against him. There are already those who did it and weren't punished, setting a precedent. Not a great plan.

16 hours ago, Diomedes said:

Nr. 1 Queen Jasnah is a heretic who wants to abolish slavery. Hardly something that makes her endearing to the Alethi as a whole.

Slavery is already almost abolished. A great number of Alethi slaves were Parshman, who now are free, while one particular group of slaves became one of the most influential groups among Alethi society, jumping up to the 4th Dahn by becoming Knights Radiant. Jasnah being an atheist seems to be now mostly resolved after her greatest critic, Ruthar, lost his title in RoW.

16 hours ago, Diomedes said:

Nr. 2 Dalinar married his brothers sister Navani, which is basically incest in Vorinism. He also is a heretic who claims “God is dead”. Therefore the entire Vorin church works vehemently against him as was a plot point in OB.

Nobody really cares anymore about Dalinar marrying Navani, even ardent Kadash said that kings have done worse and retained Vorin support (OB ch 16). And the Vorin church is in shambles. It claims the Aharietiam was the Last Desolation and Voidbringers were fully defeated and yet here we are at the True Desolation with Voidbringers back on Roshar. It claimes Heralds are second to Almighty, they are fighting in the Tranquiline Halls, yet they were proven to be insane, liars and traitors, abandoning their fellow companion to 4500 years of torture. All spren confirm Honor is dead and this is becoming harder to deny as even some ardents accepted this as a fact and reconceptualized their faith, seeing Honor as merely an aspect of Almighty. Change is upon the church of Vorin, Dalinar forces them to change and many see the need for that, some even sees this as an opportunity to break free of Vorin control.

16 hours ago, Diomedes said:

Nr. 3 The political situation was at the brink of civil war between Sadeas and Dalinars faction to begin with in WoK and WoR. Sadeas soldiers defected to Rayse in OB. Dalinar quashed their dissent, by making them dependent on him in Urithiru. If Dalinar cannot apply that pressure anymore, his alliance falls apart. Dalinar appointed highprinces loyal to him, who would face insurrections from within their ranks, if the bargain is made public.

This has been largely resolved. Even Ialai didn't like the fact that her soldiers defected to Odium, this only isolated and shamed her on the political stage. As of the end of RoW, all political opposition among Aleth Highprices is gone. Vamah, Thanadal Ialai was killed and succeeded by loyal people, securing the loyalty of those Houses and lastly Ruthar was ostracized after his duel with Jasnah. Alethkar is now in its most united state since the death of Gavilar. RoW ch 27:

Quote

Not many of the original highprinces remained. They’d been forced to replace Vamah, Thanadal, and—most recently—Sadeas with distant scions loyal to Dalinar and Jasnah.

RoW ch 50:

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“As you have died tonight, and I have bested you legally in combat, I name you forfeit of your title. It will pass to your eldest son, who has been speaking quite frankly with Wit recently. It seems he will make a far more fitting highprince.”
[...]
She eyed the still-stunned people in the tent. They were all quite deliberately staying away from Ruthar. Dalinar met Fisk’s eyes, then nodded again. The lockdown could be eased. Ruthar’s closest allies were fickle, and would see his fallen state as a disease to be avoided. Jasnah had already secured the loyalty of those who could have been dangerous—his family and military advisors.

16 hours ago, Diomedes said:

Nr. 4 Kaladin Stormblessed is not in Urithiru to rally the people behind Dalinar.

It doesn't matter. Navani liberated the Tower. And people will remain loyal to Kaladin and his loyalty, even in his absence. The common people of Alethkar are fully behind Kholins.

16 hours ago, Diomedes said:

Nr. 5 Jah Keved a Vorin kingdom already went over to Odium, why not a lot of the Alethi highprinces as well?

Maybe because they betrayed Alethkar and tried to stab them in the back on multiple occasions? They don't like them at all, they won't follow Jah Keved.

16 hours ago, Diomedes said:

Nr. 6 The Knights Radiant are traitors according to Vorin tradition

And Heralds are divine and wise, not drooling madmen who run away from their oaths, abandoning humanity. Vorin tradition was already proved to be wrong on several occasions, while Radiants were shown to heroically protect people from Desolation. There literally is a cult of the Stormblessed now. This doesn't matter as much as it did before.

16 hours ago, Diomedes said:

Nr. 7 Taravangian is a masterful politician, Dalinar is not.

Dalinar is getting better. He outmaneuvered Odium, that counts for something. And he united half of Roshar under a single banner, without conquering them.

16 hours ago, Diomedes said:

Nr. 8 Sadeas murder. This secret has to come out at some time and is going to make Dalinar seem like a fraud who only talks about Honor when it suits him.

OB ch 2:

Quote

“Well!” said Palona, hands on hips as she regarded Sadeas’s corpse. “I guess that’s one problem solved!”
Everyone in the room turned toward her.
“What?” she said. “Don’t tell me you weren’t all thinking it.”
[...]
“I know you’re desperate, Dalinar,” Sebarial said. “My presence here is sufficient proof of that. But surely we haven’t sunk so far as to be better off with Sadeas among us. I agree with Palona. Good riddance.”
[...]
“Dalinar,” Aladar said. “I used to bicker. I used to be like the other highprinces. But what I saw on that battlefield … those red eyes … Sir, I’m with you. I will follow you to the ends of the storms themselves. What do you want me to do?”

I don't think current Highprinces will agree with you. Ialai was killed when being arrested by Dalinar's forces, making it look like Dalinar did it, yet nobody cared. They all got over it.

16 hours ago, Diomedes said:

I also do think Adolin is going to take the deal as Highprince of House Kholin, becoming not like Dalinar not like Taravangian but "his own kind of wrong", as he said in RoW. He has a very strained relationship with Dalinar and also loves his homeland and his people, an endearing trait, which is working in Odiums`s favour in this case. We had Shallan flirting with the Ghostbloods in RoW, Dalinar almost becoming Odiums champion in OB, and Kaladin siding with Moash for a while in WoR. As symmetries are a big deal in SA, I think it is now Adolin`s turn to have such kind of an arc in the next book. He is probably going to confess to murdering Sadeas himself in order to undermine Dalinar.

I can't see this at all. Adolin still loves his father. Adolin wants to prove himself to his father and make him proud, showing him that there are other ways of being honorable than what Dalinar sees. And Adolin already did "his own kind of wrong," by letting himself be put on trial by Honorspren - something that Dalinar would most likely not let him do. The only way Adolin will act against Dalinar is by being tricked by Taravangian and doing something that in Adolin's eyes would benefit Dalinar, not throw away everything he achieved. But even this will fall short as Adolin doesn't trust Taravangian at all - we all know very well how he doesn't like those who betray them on a battlefield. Adolin has no reasons to listen to anything Taravangian has to say. He accomplished his task at the Lasting Integrity, proving himself better than it was expected from him. He would never side with Odium and Voidbringers. RoW ch 87:

Quote

“Humans are not from this land,” Blended said. “You are invaders, and bonds with you are not natural. Be careful what you say—you will encourage us to return to the singers. They betrayed us long ago, but never on the scale of the humans. Perhaps the highspren have the correct idea in joining with the armies of the Fused.”
“You’d side with them?” Adolin said. “Our enemies?”
“Why not?” she said, strolling across the stage. “They are the rightful heirs of this land. They have been pushed to desperation by your kind, but they are no less reasonable or logical. Perhaps your kind would do better to acknowledge their rule.”
“They serve Odium,” Adolin said, noticing many of the honorspren shifting in their seats, uncomfortable. “Men might be changeable, yes. We might be corrupt at times, and weak always. But I know evil when I see it. Odium is evil. I will never serve him.”

16 hours ago, Diomedes said:

As the traitorous Alethi army will march down from the Oathgate in Kholinar they would subdue the Singer forces pretty easily. They are the best fighting force in all of Roshar and have shardbearers, the Singers don’t. Without the Fused, who are dependent on Odium to be reborn, they can hardly resist the homecoming Alethi.

They do have Shardbearers on their own, they possess some blades (of Elhokar for example) and Singers amassed a large force in Alethkar, with many Regals wielding Surges. They won't be easy to defeat, especially that the Kholinar's Oathgate is a massive choke point - you not only can't send large forces at once, you can get off the Oathgate by either using steep stairs, or a narrow bridge leading to the palace - both ways can be easily blocked by a minimal force, the bridge can be even destroyed, leaving them with only one way to block. it would be extremely difficult for Alethi to conquer Kholinar, even with no Fused present there. However it's unlikely Fused will listen to Odium, they will rebel like Leshwi, the Heavenly Ones will be the first to do that and many will follow them soon after - they all are Singers and they would perceive this as the highest possible treason, comparable to the betrayal of spren. This would end with mass revolt against Odium and most Singers and Fused would abandon him, choosing the road of Venli and Listeners. In consequence, this would deprive Odium of his entire army and leave him and Alethi Highprinces totally exposed - which is vastly different than a position of strength. Those Highprinces would then recalculate their position and alignment with Odium and probably switch back to Dalinar's side. It’s a really spectacular and brilliant way for Taravangian to lose everything at once, while gaining nothing in return.

Edited July 21, 2024 by alder24

Diomedes · July 21, 2024

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Alethkar is now in its most united state since the death of Gavilar.

From the perspective of the Alethi they have two choices, either take the deal and go home now or wait and never go home at all for the rest of their life, in case Dalinar loses the duel. They will not bet on the outcome of the duel and take the sure chance to go to their beloved homeland now. Alethkar is mostly bound together by force. if that pressure cannot be exerted anymore, it falls apart. Like I said the puppet highprince face will insurrections from their own ranks or take the deal anyways.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Slavery is already almost abolished. A great number of Alethi slaves were Parshman, who now are free, while one particular group of slaves became one of the most influential groups among Alethi society, jumping up to the 4th Dahn by becoming Knights Radiant. Jasnah being an atheist seems to be now mostly resolved after her greatest critic, Ruthar, lost his title in RoW.

Dalinar vehemently opposed Jasnahs plan saying it would cause massive social upheaval. Navani also shared his concern. In the same chapter Navani also worries about the political influence of the Vorin church. She is a smart woman, she will have her reasons. The church is weakened for sure, but they are facing an existential threat. If "God is dead", the Heralds madmen, who needs the church anyways? This means a wholesale abolition of their organisation. They will fight with everything they have to ensure the survival of their organisation.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Then both Fused and Singers would rebel against him. There are already those who did it and weren't punished, setting a precedent. Not a great plan.

The Fused are dependent on Odium to be reborn. Only the Heavenly Ones betrayed Odium, because their surges are close to Honor, the rest will not betray Odium so easily. The Singers dont exist as a unified people, there are multiple nations of Singers as are of Humans. As you said yourself about the relationship between Jah Keved and Alethkar. If Odiums plan is to betray the Alethi Singers, to gain an advantage for their cause as a whole then the Regals and the Fused will go along with it. As the last epigraphs of RoW say, the Fused is looking forward to lead human armies. Therefore his allegiance to Singers of all nations, because they are Singers, is not that pronounced.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Another problem is even if somehow all Alethi Highprices were to defect and declare neutrality (that means they can't ally Odium or work with Odium in any way, otherwise they would be considered of Odium and would be given back to Dalinar if he were to win the duel), the contract is still binding to both parties. There are other allies on Dalinar's side, there are other nations bound by those terms. Taravangian isn't interested in Alethkar, he's interested in getting rid of the contract entirely - getting freed of Honor's bindings. Taravangian wants to become a player on the wider Cosmere political stage and being bound to Roshar isn't good at all. He needs to be free, even if he won't leave the system (because it's hard, Odium is too invested in Roshar to leave with no troubles). That's the main goal of Taravangian "to free them all." Alethkar holds no value in the long term. He loses as long as he remains bound by Honor and the terms of the Contest puts him always at loss. RoW ch 114:

This is your own theory. According to the contract he is bound to the system either way.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

He would never side with Odium and Voidbringers.

I did not say he would, but he will take the deal to become neutral. Adolin loves his father, but he loves his country and his people more and he will do what he thinks is best for it.

Edited July 21, 2024 by Diomedes

alder24 · July 21, 2024

7 hours ago, Diomedes said:

From the perspective of the Alethi they have two choices, either take the deal and go home now or wait and never go home at all for the rest of their life, in case Dalinar loses the duel. They will not bet on the outcome of the duel and take the sure chance to go to their beloved homeland now. Alethkar is mostly bound together by force. if that pressure cannot be exerted anymore, it falls apart. Like I said the puppet highprince face will insurrections from their own ranks or take the deal anyways.

There is no force or pressure uniting Alethkar at this moment, it's the exact opposite. Dalinar managed to unite Alethkar without force. When he went towards the center of the Shattered Plains, he let his words and action do the uniting, not threats or swords - people joined him without being forced to do it. Those who survived the battle of Narak are now forever loyal to Dalinar, as he proved he was right and they were the first one who fought against Voidbringers. This loyalty won't be shaken now. Since then Dalinar grew to be an even bigger diplomat and he united the nation without forcing them to do that - they are following him because they want, not because they fear him. Highprinces are loyal, regular troops are even more loyal as they have fought with Dalinar for years now. Hostilities between camps are over. People of Alethkar are united by the cause of fighting against Voidbringers. There is no way that all those Vorin people would side with the enemy. There is no pressure that holds them to Dalinar - common people literally rebelled against Odium during the occupation of the Tower, they threw away their chances of getting back home and chose to fight against Voidbringers at the cost of their own lives. No insurrection will happen because they've already chosen their side.

Dalinar has proven to be a capable leader. Not only he was the first to lead the fight against Voidbringers, he won the battle of Thaylen field against all odds, he created and leads the biggest coalition of nations on Roshar, that wasn't seen probably since the False Desolation, he successfully liberated Emul and Navani reclaimed Urithiru. All of Dalinar's action forced Odium to concede defeat and ask for terms - which is a massive achievement on its own. A literal opposition to Almighty humbly asked Dalinar for a terms of ending the war. They have no reasons to doubt Dalinar and due to the almost miraculous reconquest of Urithiru, I think they will have faith in Dalinar winning.

7 hours ago, Diomedes said:

Dalinar vehemently opposed Jasnahs plan saying it would cause massive social upheaval. Navani also shared his concern. In the same chapter Navani also worries about the political influence of the Vorin church. She is a smart woman, she will have her reasons. The church is weakened for sure, but they are facing an existential threat. If "God is dead", the Heralds madmen, who needs the church anyways? This means a wholesale abolition of their organisation. They will fight with everything they have to ensure the survival of their organisation.

Yes, concerns were raised (and that's a good thing because they can see Jasnah being her own queen, not being controlled by Dalinar), but everything is already thrown out of balance and people see this. A slave can save Dalinar and half of his army from obliteration and then fly among skies, a poorest darkeye can swear oaths and become a Radiant - all societal boundaries are already blurry and everyone sees this. Changes are upon them and they all see this. Even now there are people who work doing tasks which were earlier given to enslaved Parhsmen and everyone got accustomed to it.

As for the Vorin church, that's the point. They were proven to be wrong, they aren't the right leaders during these desolate times - people are questioning them. They are losing significance, they are losing their status, they are losing respect and control. Even excommunicating Dalinar was a desperate move which accomplished nothing, as most didn't care about it. Things are changing, Vorinism was proven to be wrong, the church has to change as well and ardents are well aware of this. They are trying to redefine their faith to fit modern truths and regain their status. They can't fight it by siding with Odium as that would mean the end of the church and the traditional Vorin religion. If someone were to side with Odium, the church would be fully supportive of Dalinar's actions against them - they might not like him, but they are fighting a common enemy, the enemy of Almighty himself, which is greater than their little conflicts.

And ardents are slaves themselves, they would probably be for the abolishment of slavery to gain more political power.

OB ch 122:

Quote

“Have you thought,” Navani said, “about how Kadash and the ardents will respond to you learning to read?”
“I’ve been excommunicated already. There’s not much more they could do.”
“They could leave.”
“No,” Dalinar said. “I don’t think they will. I actually think … I think I might be getting through to Kadash. Did you see him at the wedding? He’s been reading what the ancient theologians wrote, trying to find justification for modern Vorinism. He doesn’t want to believe me, but soon he won’t be able to help it.”

Here is a statement of Godeke, a Radiant who used to be an ardent from RoW ch 22:

Spoiler

Quote

“You … continue to follow the Almighty then?” Adolin asked. “Vorinism and all that? Despite finding out that the Heralds betrayed us?”
“The Heralds are not God, but His servants,” Godeke said. “Storms know, I’ve failed Him more than once myself.” He adopted a distant expression. “I don’t think we can blame them for eventually wearing out. Rather, I think about how remarkable it is that they worked for so long to keep us safe.”
“And the fact that they confirmed the death of the Almighty?”
“The death of Honor,” Godeke said. “One aspect of the Almighty.” He smiled. “It’s all right, Brightlord. I can understand someone questioning now, of all times. Remember though, the church taught that we are all aspects of the Almighty—that He lives in us. As He lived in the being called Honor, who was tasked with protecting men.
“The Almighty cannot die. People can die. Heralds can die. Even Honor could die. But Honor, people, and Heralds will all live again—transformed, Soulcast through His power.” Godeke glanced back at his packhorse, which his spren was riding. Stuffed into the saddlebags and peeking out were several books. “I’m still learning. We all are. The Book of Endless Pages cannot be filled … though your father made a very nice addition to the text.”
“You’re okay with a man writing then?” Adolin said, frowning.
“Your father is not simply a man, Adolin,” Godeke said.
“He—”
“Your father is a holy man. As I was, before taking up this new role.” Godeke shook his head. “All my life I lived with a deformity—and then in an instant I was transformed and healed. I became what I’d always seen myself as being. Your father has undergone a more vibrant transformation. He is as divine as any ardent.
“And … I must admit some of what he says makes sense. How can it be forbidden for a person to see the holy words of the Almighty, solely because that person is male? Makes me wonder whether we’ve misinterpreted all along. Whether we’ve been selfish, wanting to keep all this for ourselves.
“I don’t accept the conclusions your father came to—but I’m glad people are talking about the church rather than merely going about their lives, assuming the ardents will take care of everything. Many people only thought of religion when it was time for one of their Elevations.”

Ardents are already searching for a way to redefine Vorinism in reaction to recent events, some have already found it.

7 hours ago, Diomedes said:

Only the Heavenly Ones betrayed Odium, because their surges are close to Honor, the rest will not betray Odium so easily.

That's not true at all. Fused have access to one Surge, not two, shanay-im have access to Gravitation, which DOESN'T belong to Honor. Even Fused belief that Adhesion is the truest Surge of Honor is biased and not to be trusted. All Fused aren't anywhere near Honor, they are all of Odium - fully. What Leshwi did was fully aligned with the intent of Odium and his Passions. Raboniel literally betrayed Odium in her last moments, all to end the war no matter who wins. Fused aren't as loyal to Odium as you see it. They still perceive Singers as their people, many still fight for their right to their homeworld. Raboniel's past action of creating a disease which decimated Singers, was condemned by many Fused. There is no way for them to sit quietly and watch Odium sacrifice so many of their own people, many will rebel - reborning won't matter anymore, the war is over if they do it.

The Fused only use nine of the Surges (they don't use Adhesion), and Raboniel describes Adhesion as "not a true Surge." Does this mean, in its original form on Ashyn, Surgebinding had no equivalent to Adhesion, and it was created by Honor later?

Brandon Sanderson

That is a valid way of theorizing, and I would encourage you to go that direction. Raboniel is biased. So take those two sentences as separate things. Do be aware she is very, very biased, but also your theorizing could bear fruit going that direction.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

7 hours ago, Diomedes said:

The Singers dont exist as a unified people, there are multiple nations of Singers as are of Humans.

Singers don't have their own culture, that's true, but they are developing it right now. And the one, single thing that unites them all is their fight for independence. Once Alethkar was conquered, Singers from all across Roshar flocked to it, happy to own their own homeland. There are not only Alethi Singers there, there are Singers from all across Roshar. It's their country now. Odium can't give it up without every single Singer there rebelling against him. The cause is uniting them all.

7 hours ago, Diomedes said:

As the last epigraphs of RoW say, the Fused is looking forward to lead human armies. Therefore his allegiance to Singers of all nations, because they are Singers, is not that pronounced.

El is looking forward to it, not the Fused. El was stripped of his title and Rhythms by suggesting incorporating humans into Odium's forces and nations. Other Fused do not share his view - even Leshwi rejected the idea of emplying a human instead of a Singer. RoW ch 99 epigraphs:

Quote

"I had my title and my rhythms stripped from me for daring insist they should not be killed, but should instead be reconditioned. Repurposed."

7 hours ago, Diomedes said:

This is your own theory. According to the contract he is bound to the system either way.

That's the whole point. He doesn't want to be bound. He wants to be free - he needs to force Dalinar to break the terms of the contract, which will put Dalinar in Odium's hands, render the contract void and free Odium of his bounds. Taravangian had the power to end the war and save anyone on Roshar right at the moment of his Ascension, but decided not to because "of the whole Cosmere" (quoted in my previous post). He wants out, just like Rayse did. This is the outcome in which Odium wins, winning the contest is not a win for Odium as he's still bound to Roshar. RoW ch 112:

Quote

“Basically?” Dalinar pressed. “What happens, Odium, if you break your word.” “Then the contract is void, and I am in your power. Same, but reversed, if you break the contract. You would be in my power, and the restrictions Honor placed upon me—chaining me to the Rosharan system and preventing me from using my powers on most individuals—would be void."
[...]
"All I want is away from this miserable system."

7 hours ago, Diomedes said:

I did not say he would, but he will take the deal to become neutral. Adolin loves his father, but he loves his country and his people more and he will do what he thinks is best for it.

You mean a person, who went out of his way risking his own life to talk to and convince neutral Honorspren to join the war effort instead of being neutral and in that way helping Odium, will suddenly become neutral just because? With no motivation, no justification? That's totally out of character for Adolin. Taking that deal means siding with Odium. Being neutral is betraying everything he fought for, betraying his efforts in Lasting Integrity, betraying HIS allies, soldiers and his country. He won't do that. He cares for his people, but his morality will always put him against anything Odium will want, neutrality included.

Edited July 21, 2024 by alder24

ScavellTane · July 24, 2024

Odium will lose the Champions duel but kill Cultivation and destroy the Stormfather, in essence winning his contest with Honor and Cultivation.

CtrlAltDepressed · July 24, 2024

On 7/21/2024 at 12:25 PM, alder24 said:

Taravangian had the power to end the war and save anyone on Roshar right at the moment of his Ascension, but decided not to because "of the whole Cosmere" (quoted in my previous post). He wants out, just like Rayse did.

Not to hijack this thread, but do we think T 'wasted' his Ascension? Or do we think he changed things and we just havent been told yet?

Aredor · July 24, 2024

30 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Not to hijack this thread, but do we think T 'wasted' his Ascension? Or do we think he changed things and we just havent been told yet?

I don't think that the Shard of Odium could be used to save everyone at the moment of ascension. I think that's a feature unique to Scadrial, given that it was created by the Shards in residence. The rules work differently in Roshar.

alder24 · July 24, 2024

34 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Not to hijack this thread, but do we think T 'wasted' his Ascension? Or do we think he changed things and we just havent been told yet?

What do you mean wasted? Changes were, one of them is killing the Pursuer, the other is tricking Hoid and stealing his memories (Rayse wouldn't have done this), the change to use the full potential of human under Odium control (from Musings of El) - a proposition for which El was stripped of his titles and Rhythms by Rayse. More changes were definitely made off-pages, we will see them in KoWT.

Also keep in mind that the knowledge comes gradually to a new Vessel after Ascension, the longer he waits and gets accustomed to his new powers, the better he gets.

Taravangian said it himself that he could end the war right after his Ascension - the easiest way to do it was to strip Fused from their Connection to Odium killing them (or do whatever Rayse was meaning by saying he can take away what makes them alive), take away the forms of power from Singers, stop giving Voidlight, force them all to leave Alethkar, Herdaz and other occupied territories and just reveal himself to Dalinar saying "look, I was right, I'm Odium now and I'm ending this war and Desolations. We've won and Roshar is safe atlast." He didn't do it because he saw Rayse's plans for the entire Cosmere and decided to continue his work.

Spoiler

Questioner

When somebody takes up a Shard, do they inherently get knowledge when they get that Shard? For example, does Taravangian know about hemalurgy, now, just because he took up a Shard? Or was that just Ruin's...?

Brandon Sanderson

Excellent question. Taking up a Shard is going to impart a large amount of knowledge, more than even a Shard can process immediately, and it will take some time. And it's going to give you the ability to access a lot of other kinds of knowledge. Shards aren't omnipresent, but they kind of are; they are able to do many things at once, they are able to focus on places and be aware of that location in a lot of instances. But at the same time, they are limited in their ability to... they don't know everything. They might be able to get access to most things, but it takes conscious... like, "I need to know this. I need to find it out. It happens it's written in a book that I can just... it's on this other planet, and I absorb it and immediately know." Assuming it's not written in a way that you can't access, which certain formats make it hard to do.

So, Taravangian, if he cared to think about what hemalurgy is, it's well enough known that he could be like, "I wonder if there's a way to steal... Oh, it's this. This is how it works on this planet." That would be an almost instantaneous thing for him to be able to learn, if he wanted to. But does he hold it in his head right now? That remains to be seen.

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

CtrlAltDepressed · July 24, 2024

The below is what I mean by wasted.

MB spoilers:

Spoiler

In Mistborn we see that Sazed is able to enact massive change with the surge of power during his Ascension - power that he is unable to access after the Ascension. This is the power he used to change the terrain and modify the species. We don't see T do anything like the this, and it seems like a waste of the Ascension if he doesn't use that initial surge of power to do something massive.

31 minutes ago, alder24 said:

What do you mean wasted? Changes were, one of them is killing the Pursuer, the other is tricking Hoid and stealing his memories (Rayse wouldn't have done this), the change to use the full potential of human under Odium control (from Musings of El) - a proposition for which El was stripped of his titles and Rhythms by Rayse. More changes were definitely made off-pages, we will see them in KoWT.

What do you mean change to use the full potential of human under Odium control? I dont think I know what you're referencing.

Killing pursuer and tricking Hoid are things that Rayse COULD have done (even if he never would have chose to).

alder24 · July 24, 2024

57 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

The below is what I mean by wasted.

MB spoilers:

Hide contents

In Mistborn we see that Sazed is able to enact massive change with the surge of power during his Ascension - power that he is unable to access after the Ascension. This is the power he used to change the terrain and modify the species. We don't see T do anything like the this, and it seems like a waste of the Ascension if he doesn't use that initial surge of power to do something massive.

Mistborn spoilers:

Spoiler

There is no surge of power that comes only during the Ascension, it's just power, the same power all Vessels can access anytime. Sazed combined both Shards, who previously were doing everything possible to oppose each other, thus he could use them with no opposition (Vin tried to do that, but was constantly prevented by Ruin). However, because Scadrial was created by Ruin and Preservation and every Axi on Scadrial is made out of their power, it gave them a wider range of actions they could make. Roshar wasn't created by Odium but by Adonalsium, Roshar only recently became invested enough by Odium to bind him. Moreover Odium is massively restricted by chains placed on him by Honor during his imprisonment. He can't use his power directly on most individuals and Cultivation is still there ready to oppose him - he couldn't have done things like Sazed did.

HoA ch 82:

Quote

Sazed hovered over the world, changing things as he felt he must. He cradled the hiding places of mankind, keeping the caverns safe—even if he did move them about—as he reworked the world's tectonics. Finally, he exhaled softly, his work finished. And yet, the power did not evaporate from him, as he had expected it to.
Rashek and Vin only touched small pieces of it at the Well of Ascension, he realized. I have something more. Something endless.

RoW ch 112:

Quote

"You would be in my power, and the restrictions Honor placed upon me—chaining me to the Rosharan system and preventing me from using my powers on most individuals—would be void."

Edit: More Mistborn Spoilers:

Spoiler

Sazed "can't" access that power because he has troubles combining two opposing intents of both Shards. This conflict between both of his halves overwhelms him to the point that he is unable to act. Being a Vessel is a struggle between minds and wills. You're constantly fighting against Power's attempts to mold your mind to fit its Intent and overtime you will lose. It's easier to use Shardic power right after Ascension because you weren't changed that much yet. Taravangian has shown to be able to resist Odium's power and it would take quite some time before it would become a problem to him - several hundred years. OB 3rd letter:

Quote

I am finding that the powers I hold are in such conflict that the most simple of actions can be difficult.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Shards and Shard intents: Holding a Shard is a contest of willpower against the Shard that, over time, is very hard to resist.

Shards affect you over time, but your mind will not leave a permanent effect on the Shard. A holder's [Vessel's] personality, however, does get to filter the Shard's intent, so to speak. However, if that holder [Vessel] no longer held that Shard, the Shard will not continue to be filtered by that person.

Alloy of Law 17th Shard Q&A (Nov. 5, 2011)

Spoiler

Questioner

I was actually wondering, the epigraphs for The Way of Kings, that were talking about how the various Shardholders [Vessels] are influenced by their Shards over time—how does that impact someone like Harmony, with multiple shards?

Brandon Sanderson

The main effect it's having on Harmony right now is the inability to act sometimes, because his two sides are pushing, and so he is having trouble being proactive. It'd take a long time before it really becomes manifest, but he's had several hundred years, so it's starting to have an effect.

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

Spoiler

ericth

Could Sazed take down Rayse since he has two shards?

Brandon Sanderson

Rayse is VERY scared of Sazed. However, given Sazed is a composite of two diametrically opposed shards, he finds it very difficult to act.

Words of Radiance Los Angeles signing (March 5, 2014)

57 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

What do you mean change to use the full potential of human under Odium control? I dont think I know what you're referencing.

We don't know what precisely, but the Musings of El suggest that El was stripped of his title and Rhythms by suggesting to treat humans somewhat equally to Singers and incorporate them into Odium forces to a greater extent - to use their Passions, instead of killing them. Taravangian seems to agree with El. RoW epigraphs:

Quote

"I had my title and my rhythms stripped from me for daring insist they should not be killed, but should instead be reconditioned. Repurposed."

"Humans are weapons. We singers revere Passion, do we not? How can we throw away such an excellent channeling of it?"

"And I will march proudly at the head of a human legion."

"They should not be discarded, but helped to their potential. Their final Passions."

"Yes, I look forward to ruling the humans."

"Nearly as much as I look forward to serving you, newest Odium. Who was so recently one of them. You understand. And you are the one I’ve been waiting to worship."

57 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Killing pursuer and tricking Hoid are things that Rayse COULD have done (even if he never would have chose to).

Yes, had the power to do it, but he most likely would not have done this. That's a big change. A Vessel's interpretation of laws, oaths and terms can influence their meaning. With a new Vessel, Odium can do things that Rayse wouldn't have been able to because of his interpretation of oaths. RoW ch 116:

Quote

“Wit says the enemy can’t violate our agreement, and isn’t likely to try to misinterpret it—not intentionally"

Edited July 24, 2024 by alder24
added more under Edit tag

Taravangian`s bargain or the loophole in the contract

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