ThoughtsofRain he/him Posted July 19, 2024 Posted July 19, 2024 so realms... there are three of them right? except in stormlight we se that that's not entirely true, the realm taravangian killed rase in was "imbetween" the cognitive and physical realms I think it significant that someone dying was able to visit this 'place' if you could call it that. this ties into my larger theory that there aren't three realms but many layers of existence broadly separated into three. so the realms of existence instead offing a three layer cake clearly separated by frosting it's more of a nine layer dip. so you may think "but Brandon said there were three realms" and to you I say he is giving us the information that in cosmere researchers would be able to gather. now part of my theory is that shadesmar is just the physical manifestation of the cognitive realm which is why physical creatures can visit. what I mean is that shadesmar is the cognitive representation physical things, like sticks. but there is another layer to the section of the dip bowl that is the cognitive realm. this 'layer' is the cognitive representation of thought, this I hypothesize is where visions given by shards occur, such as the storm fathers visions or the meetings odium has with characters. the way this would work is that cognitive representations of mental occurrences "thoughts" can only be reached by entirely cognitive beings. the vocabulary required for study of this subject is hard to think of so don't ignore the fact that cognitive shadows can't visit these places but understand there is a lack of vocabulary. anyways back on topic I suspect that minds such as the newly those close to death enter this place. others who can enter into this layer of the dip are lift shown when she enters and exits the storm fathers visions on her own, and of coarse the shards who unlike humans have such large cognitive aspects there thoughts can have massive cognitive representations. the final part of my theory is that all the realms can be visited spiritual, cognitive ,and physical but that the physical bodies of people can only travel to the physical dip layer of each realm. this I suspect is where the crystal holding ba' ado mishram was hidden, in the physical layer of the spiritual realm. this theory is very long and I'm new to the shard so if there are any rules about the length of posts pleas inform me so I can chop ths into smaller pieces.
Treamayne Posted July 19, 2024 Posted July 19, 2024 (edited) 2 hours ago, ThoughtsofRain said: This theory is very long and I'm new to the shard. So, if there are any rules about the length of posts please inform me so I can chop this into smaller pieces. Actually, your post is not very long at all. hard to read, but not too long. Policies can be reviewed here. But please, for Ado's sake, capitalize and punctuate (not to mention spelling, which I also struggle with getting correct). I will try to interpret. 2 hours ago, ThoughtsofRain said: So Realms... There are three of them right? Except in Stormlight [Archive] we see that that's not entirely true. The realm where Taravangian killed Rayse was "in-between" the Cognitive (CR) and Physical (PR) realms. I think [that] it [is] significant that somebody [who is] dying was able to visit this 'place.' If you could call it that. This ties into my larger theory that there aren't [actually] three realms, but many layers of existence [that are] broadly separated into three [categories?]. So the Realms of existence, instead offering a three-layer-cake [that is] clearly separated by frosting, is more of a "nine-layer-dip." You may think "but Brandon said there were three realms;" and, to you, I say "he is giving us the information that in-Cosmere researchers would be able to gather." Part of my theory is that Shadesmar is just the physical manifestation of the Cognitive Realm, which is why physical creatures can visit. What I mean is that Shadesmar is the Cognitive representation [of] physical things (like sticks). [However], [I think] there is another layer to the section of the "dip bowl" that is the CR. This 'layer' is the Cognitive representation of thought. This, I hypothesize, is where [the] visions given by Shards occur (such as the Stormfather's visions, or the meetings [that] Odium has with characters). The way this would work is that Cognitive representations of mental occurrences (thoughts) can only be reached by entirely cognitive beings. The vocabulary required for study of this subject is hard to think of, so don't ignore the fact that Cognitive Shadows can't visit these places, but understand [that] there is a lack of vocabulary. Anyway, back on topic. I suspect that minds, such as the newly [dead] (those close to death) enter this place. Others who can enter into this layer of the "dip" are Lift (shown when she enters and exits the Stormfather's vision on her own); and, of course, the Shards who, unlike humans, have such large Cognitive aspects [that] their thoughts can have massive Cognitive representations. The final part of my theory is that: all [of] the realms can be visited. Spiritual, Cognitive, and Physical; but that the physical bodies of people can only travel to the "physical dip layer" of each realm. This, I suspect, is where the crystal holding Ba'Ado Mishram was hidden - in the "Physical layer" of the Spiritual Realm. I hope I preserved your meaning, while increasing legibility. Please note if I got something wrong (Missing words added with [] brackets). As far as the theory, Some considerations: Thought representations are already shown to exist in both Roshar's and Scadrial's Shadesmar. On Roshar, they are the "lights" that represent each sapient soul (rather than beads for non-sapient souls) Also, the Everstorm had a Cognitive Representation in Shadesmar; without a corresponding Physical Representation until the Parshendi Storm-forms "pulled" it through The Visions would have to be in a Demense (term from another IP that means a temporary self-enclosed "realm" partially in two different "zones") that lies between the Cognitive and Spiritual realm, since we have multiple examples of Time and Location not applying Including (non-complete list) Kaladin and Stormfather, Dalinar's Visions, Kaladin and storm-riding Dalinar, Odium and everybody We know time didn't apply, and location was irrelevant and that their Physical body never went anywhere; which is what implies a SR/CR Demense You imply a three-tier cake model for the realms, but they are not "stacked" or even really separate - they a different ways of interacting with the same things from a different "perspective" e. g. Shadesmar is neither above nor below the PR, they are side-by-side as one - as shown from the Sja-Anat viewpoint because she is in between and interacting with both at the same time (other examples include Elantris and Mistborn Spoilers) Like I said, it's just food-for-thought to help brainstorm your theory further. Edited July 19, 2024 by Treamayne SPAG 3
alder24 Posted July 19, 2024 Posted July 19, 2024 3 hours ago, ThoughtsofRain said: so realms... there are three of them right? except in stormlight we se that that's not entirely true, the realm taravangian killed rase in was "imbetween" the cognitive and physical realms I think it significant that someone dying was able to visit this 'place' if you could call it that. this ties into my larger theory that there aren't three realms but many layers of existence broadly separated into three. so the realms of existence instead offing a three layer cake clearly separated by frosting it's more of a nine layer dip. so you may think "but Brandon said there were three realms" and to you I say he is giving us the information that in cosmere researchers would be able to gather. now part of my theory is that shadesmar is just the physical manifestation of the cognitive realm which is why physical creatures can visit. what I mean is that shadesmar is the cognitive representation physical things, like sticks. but there is another layer to the section of the dip bowl that is the cognitive realm. this 'layer' is the cognitive representation of thought, this I hypothesize is where visions given by shards occur, such as the storm fathers visions or the meetings odium has with characters. the way this would work is that cognitive representations of mental occurrences "thoughts" can only be reached by entirely cognitive beings. the vocabulary required for study of this subject is hard to think of so don't ignore the fact that cognitive shadows can't visit these places but understand there is a lack of vocabulary. anyways back on topic I suspect that minds such as the newly those close to death enter this place. others who can enter into this layer of the dip are lift shown when she enters and exits the storm fathers visions on her own, and of coarse the shards who unlike humans have such large cognitive aspects there thoughts can have massive cognitive representations. the final part of my theory is that all the realms can be visited spiritual, cognitive ,and physical but that the physical bodies of people can only travel to the physical dip layer of each realm. this I suspect is where the crystal holding ba' ado mishram was hidden, in the physical layer of the spiritual realm. this theory is very long and I'm new to the shard so if there are any rules about the length of posts pleas inform me so I can chop ths into smaller pieces. Hello, welcome to the Shard We actually have an answer from Brandon on where visions occur. Visions are glimpses into the Spiritual Realm, but viewed through the Cognitive Realm (through the mind). They are happening in the Spiritual Realm, the Cognitive Realm gives them a framework and allows people to experience and comprehend them. Spoiler Argent How do visions in the cosmere work? And I'm thinking Realmatically. Brandon Sanderson So almost always [it's] glimpsing into the Spiritual Realm. But you are often seeing it through the Cognitive, and so like a vision that... So like the vision that Dalinar sees. What's going on is-- being pulled, and kind of stretched a little bit through the Realms, into the Spiritual Realm. Where a Cognitive construct is adding a framework to seeds that are set in place. Argent So that you can kind of comprehend the Spiritual? Brandon Sanderson You can comprehend-- and also there's a little bit of a life to it. Meaning it can respond to you and things like this, to an extent. So imagine, it kind of works like an AI. Imagine there's some-- You've got that power in the Spiritual Realm and you're adding a framework to it, that it is shining through, and that is giving you the vision. Complicated, I know. Spiritual Realm is supposed to be weird, and we aren't supposed to quite comprehend it, but that's why we've got the Cognitive framework there. JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018) And we have this hinted by Odium in RoW I-4, where he said visions aren't a place - just like the Spiritual Realm also isn't a place. Quote Vyre looked up, across the endless field of golden stone. “How do you bring me here?” THIS IS NOT A PLACE, BUT A WARPING OF THE REALMS. A VISION. Spoiler Questioner In Shadesmar, the solid and liquid phases are inverted. So, in the Spiritual Realm, is it something to do with solid and gas phases, or is it not the same at all? Brandon Sanderson It is not quite where you're going, but I like the way you're thinking. Questioner So then what's the reason that they can't travel to the Spiritual Realm? Brandon Sanderson The Spiritual Realm is not a place. Skyward San Francisco signing (Nov. 8, 2018) Everything in Cosmere exists in all three Realms simultaneously. They have a physical body, Cognitive manifestation and a Spiritweb. For objects the Cognitive manifestations appear in the Cognitive Realm as beads on Roshar, for living things those are flames. Things in the Cognitive Realm aren't physical (unless you bring them through a perpendicularity), the Cognitive Realm is the realm of manifested thoughts and ideals. Spiritwebs exists in the Spiritual Realm which is where time and space compound into one and distance has no meaning. And their whole existence is anchored to person's Physical body. When a person dies, their body is separated from their mind and the Cognitive Realm is the "in between land” (because it connects the Physical Realm with the Spiritual one) before their soul fades into the Beyond (which ISN'T the Spiritual Realm, it's the Afterlife in its classical meaning which Brandon won't ever confirm if it exists in the Cosmere or not) . But that's not where Taravangian was when he died - his mind was pulled and stretched earlier by Odium into the Spiritual Realm, while his body stayed in the Physical Realm. Nightblood on the other hand, because of his highly invested nature, pierces all three realms at once and exists in all of them (just like a Shardblade does, that's why it can cut through souls because it's physical in all Realms at once) - that's why Taravangian was able to use it against Odium, as it pierced through the vision Odium created, which was in the Spiritual Realm. By visions aren't a place, they are sent to a mind, thus experienced through a mind, which is a Cognitive aspect of a person. It's already getting complicated and messy to explain how the three Realms can interact with each other, but those interactions can explain everything that's happening. There are no additional realms or layers on top of them and Brandon is clear about it. Spoiler [...] Brandon Sanderson [...] Each of the 'Shardworlds' I've written in (Mistborn, Elantris, Warbreaker, Way of Kings) exists with the same cosmology. All things exist on three realms—the spiritual, the cognitive, and the physical. What's going on here is an interaction between the three realms. I don't want to bore you with my made up philosophy, but I do have a cohesive metaphysical reasoning for how my worlds and magic works. And there is a single plane of existence—called Shadesmar, the Cognative Realm—which connects them all. [...] Barnes and Noble Book Club Q&A (July 8, 2009) Spoiler MoriWillow In the Spiritual Realm, does there exist an ideal of tables that is a separate entity from the spiritwebs of all extant tables? If so, did that ideal always exist, even before the invention of tables? Or was it born out of the people inventing tables? Brandon Sanderson The answer is no. This is where we diverge from Plato’s Theory of the Forms. Again, Theory of the Forms was a conceptual benchmark for me. I thought the Theory of the Forms was awesome, and it stuck in my head for many years and eventually gave birth to Cognitive, Spiritual, and Physical. (The first book really delving into that being Dragonsteel Prime, and it’s in the opening chapters of Dragonsteel Prime.) But where it differs is: there is not a Platonic idea of a table in the cosmere. All ideals in the cosmere are filtered through the perception of sapient beings. YouTube Spoiler Stream 6 (Dec. 19, 2023) Spoiler NutiketAiel When a Radiant is in the Cognitive Realm, does their mind exist individually, like separately from their body? Brandon Sanderson Uhh, no. NutiketAiel So you physically travel to the Cognitive Realm? Brandon Sanderson You can kind of step in between both but you do not separate from your body. NutiketAiel So when Shallan is only partly in...she's in both at the same time? Brandon Sanderson Yeah. She's transitioning. It's not astral projection. But no that's a legit question. NutiketAiel So Shallan, and Lightweavers, are capable of physically stepping into Shadesmar? Brandon Sanderson RAFO. But the implication is yes. Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014) Spoiler [WoB edited to remove spoilers from Mistborn] Brandon Sanderson [God metal like Shardblade] breaks a lot of rules, in the same way that you will see other things break rules. [God metal] plays weirdly. When you get distilled Investiture, you're starting like-- My kind of rule for myself is it's kind of like when you start going on the quantum level, the rules just start playing weirdly. Because it's like, what Realm does [god metal] exist in-- is another thing. Because-- Pure Investiture like that is like a mini black hole, right? It's like existing in three Realms at once. Kind of, and things like that... There's lots of weirdness. [...] Salt Lake City signing (Dec. 16, 2017) 1
ThoughtsofRain he/him Posted July 20, 2024 Author Posted July 20, 2024 I feel like Eshu. I capitalized the right letter this time hurrah. I'm new( I lack key information) so thank you for endowing the knowledge I was missing I can now be happy with knowing that Kalak is just insane.
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